Author Topic: $1 MCU review — looking for part suggestions!  (Read 32282 times)

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Offline thm_w

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Re: $1 MCU review — looking for part suggestions!
« Reply #100 on: November 07, 2017, 10:12:23 pm »
I recall every week there is at least one person reporting bugs created by Cube MX.

Its not that bad..
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Offline MT

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Re: $1 MCU review — looking for part suggestions!
« Reply #101 on: November 07, 2017, 11:18:57 pm »
Its not that bad..
Yes it is! Sometimes it's close to 3 bugs a week! :popcorn:
This is one of most important things to me. That any port /peripheral / analog signal can be routed to any device pin. And that one peripheral output (for example timer pwm) can be routed to multiple device output pins. Didn't  found vendor that support this on Cortex M0 / M0+ / M3 / M4 devices.
Recall the old F100 could have multiple peripherals on at the same time on same pin.

NXP does on their LPC1500 series. Then again being able to route pins to any I/O is highly overrated.
Overrated perhaps but with STM32 things arent even pin compatible per package, and the pin mapping is quite badily done, loads of peripherals conflicts with each other particularly timers.

Quote
The pins which belong together are usually grouped anyway so if you think a bit about the PCB layout while drawing the schematic you can come up with a good component placement and thus easely routable PCB design.
Unfortunately with STM32 thats not the case, many peripherals are spread out on all the sides just inviting for cross-talks and problematic layouts.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: $1 MCU review — looking for part suggestions!
« Reply #102 on: November 08, 2017, 06:32:52 am »
Another important factor are "pin routing ability" PIC24 excels STM32 in many cases for instance, even the F0 is quite crap at this. Just my 1/2 cent!

This is one of most important things to me. That any port /peripheral / analog signal can be routed to any device pin. And that one peripheral output (for example timer pwm) can be routed to multiple device output pins. Didn't  found vendor that support this on Cortex M0 / M0+ / M3 / M4 devices.
Some of the more recent PIC8s ( e.g. 16F153xx) can also route any peripheral function to any pin.
This is an extremely useful feature, especially on 2-layer PCBs. PIC32MX isn't quite as flexible, but as there are multiples of most peripherals, between choosing which of the peripherals and the pin mapping you have a lot of flexibility.
From memory I think that on the 32MM, one of a pair of peripheral is fixed an the other is mappable to any pin.
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Offline ebclr

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Re: $1 MCU review — looking for part suggestions!
« Reply #103 on: November 08, 2017, 07:00:06 am »
"Anything I'm missing? Thanks!"

https://direct.nuvoton.com

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Online coppice

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Re: $1 MCU review — looking for part suggestions!
« Reply #104 on: November 08, 2017, 11:25:25 am »
Another important factor are "pin routing ability" PIC24 excels STM32 in many cases for instance, even the F0 is quite crap at this. Just my 1/2 cent!
The presence of pin routing is mostly a matter of when the design started. Across the industry pin routing was quite limited, then suddenly it became flavour of the month to have extensive programmable pin routing. It doesn't cost much die area to add this to a fine geometry MCU, at least for digital pins which are not pushing any speed limits. Going forward I think you can expect this to be an almost universal feature for lowish speed digital peripheral pins.
 

Online tszaboo

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Re: $1 MCU review — looking for part suggestions!
« Reply #105 on: November 08, 2017, 01:03:12 pm »
Unfortunately with STM32 thats not the case, many peripherals are spread out on all the sides just inviting for cross-talks and problematic layouts.

While I quite like the ST microcontrollers, it is an absolute nightmare to route them. For example an SPI port can be on 3 sides of the micro. Going to an ADC, and driving it with 20-40MHz clock. Or there was one time, probably the last, when I routed a SRAM into a ST micro part. All 4 sides. Criss-crossing with the Ethernet controller RMII lines, and the USB. For some reason, on a 4 layer board, we couldn't run the SRAM at the advertised speed. I wonder why.
And the 32F103. OK it has USB and CAN. I designed the board, so it uses both of them. They are on the same pins, but you can re-map the CAN. So no problems, rigth? Well the firmware programmer found hidden on page 15894 of the reference manual, in the footnote in brackets with smaller font size, that:
(*Ah, yes, BTW the USB and the CAN are using the same memory space for some reason. They cannot be used at the same time. Sucks to be you!)
 
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Offline cv007

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Re: $1 MCU review — looking for part suggestions!
« Reply #106 on: November 08, 2017, 07:45:14 pm »
Quote
Some of the more recent PIC8s ( e.g. 16F153xx) can also route any peripheral function to any pin
They still do have port restrictions on the higher pin count devices- like a 28pin 16F18854 for example each in/out peripheral will be restricted to 2 of the available ports (it varies which 2). Which still is quite good.  It is a very nice feature to have (and probably necessary with the many peripherals they have on these newer devices).

Another nice piece of info to have with these micro comparisons, is the source/sink current per pin and totals.
 

Offline technix

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Re: $1 MCU review — looking for part suggestions!
« Reply #107 on: November 09, 2017, 06:49:54 pm »
Since you mentioned STC, the STC15W100 I’m SO-8 is close to 10 US cents each (12?)
 

Online JPortici

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Re: $1 MCU review — looking for part suggestions!
« Reply #108 on: November 09, 2017, 07:00:56 pm »
Another nice piece of info to have with these micro comparisons, is the source/sink current per pin and totals.

i am FINALLY evaluating the 18F K42 series. The ADC is impressive but has some quirks i haven't understood (i wish it had channel scan tho). The PPS is a blessing. Many other new peripherals since the K22 are so ugggh, awesome.
And if you need that, programmable drive strenght and current source-sink per pin or per port (i don't have the datasheet open)
 

Online igendel

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Re: $1 MCU review — looking for part suggestions!
« Reply #109 on: November 10, 2017, 12:40:32 pm »
Hey everyone! I'm reviewing $1 (@ 100 QTY) general-purpose 8/16/32-bit MCUs from a wide range of vendors

Well, I'm reading the review now (it was published on the "Microchip Makes" facebook page) and it's fascinating. Excellent work!
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Offline janekm

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Re: $1 MCU review — looking for part suggestions!
« Reply #110 on: November 11, 2017, 03:26:10 am »
Really amazing review, I'm in awe of the amount of work you put into it! Definitely a resource I will recommend to others.

Since you mentioned STC, the STC15W100 I’m SO-8 is close to 10 US cents each (12?)

Is it? On taobao I'm seeing pricing between 1.2-2RMB (indicative of course, but works as a first approximation).
Nuvoton N76E003AT20, a part pin-compatible to the stm8s003f3p6, is showing for 0.76-1RMB (I just asked one of the shop keepers, they're fine with selling 10 at 0.76RMB, around $0.11 currently... 9 for $1  ;D).
 

Offline janekm

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Re: $1 MCU review — looking for part suggestions!
« Reply #111 on: November 11, 2017, 06:29:21 am »
Really amazing review, I'm in awe of the amount of work you put into it! Definitely a resource I will recommend to others.

Since you mentioned STC, the STC15W100 I’m SO-8 is close to 10 US cents each (12?)

Is it? On taobao I'm seeing pricing between 1.2-2RMB (indicative of course, but works as a first approximation).
Nuvoton N76E003AT20, a part pin-compatible to the stm8s003f3p6, is showing for 0.76-1RMB (I just asked one of the shop keepers, they're fine with selling 10 at 0.76RMB, around $0.11 currently... 9 for $1  ;D).

Actually I have to take that back... the shop was gaming the taobao search by applying a discount on single quantities, which reduces the more you buy. I think that's the first time I've seen a negative quantity discount ;) 10 pieces ended up costing 1.07RMB each. 1 would have been 0.76.
 

Offline technix

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Re: $1 MCU review — looking for part suggestions!
« Reply #112 on: November 11, 2017, 12:59:03 pm »
Really amazing review, I'm in awe of the amount of work you put into it! Definitely a resource I will recommend to others.

Since you mentioned STC, the STC15W100 I’m SO-8 is close to 10 US cents each (12?)

Is it? On taobao I'm seeing pricing between 1.2-2RMB (indicative of course, but works as a first approximation).
Nuvoton N76E003AT20, a part pin-compatible to the stm8s003f3p6, is showing for 0.76-1RMB (I just asked one of the shop keepers, they're fine with selling 10 at 0.76RMB, around $0.11 currently... 9 for $1  ;D).

Actually I have to take that back... the shop was gaming the taobao search by applying a discount on single quantities, which reduces the more you buy. I think that's the first time I've seen a negative quantity discount ;) 10 pieces ended up costing 1.07RMB each. 1 would have been 0.76.
You need to source them directly from STC to get the prices right.
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: $1 MCU review — looking for part suggestions!
« Reply #113 on: November 11, 2017, 01:51:20 pm »
Also, don't forget those Taiwanese OTP MCUs targeting white appliances. Some Holtek and Elan MCUs may be down to a few cents.
Those unpackaged OTP bare dice may be even cheaper (the ones found in Chinese toys).
They typically require NDA and expensive compiler software and programmer hardware, but running cost for mass production is super ultra cheap.

I wonder how much an ATTiny9 would cost in larger quantities. At Digikey you can get it for 24 cent if you buy 100. And I guess it can do more than some ultra cheap OTP MCUs. At least it is powerful enough to do realtime audio synthesis for playing a chiptune.
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Offline Siwastaja

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Re: $1 MCU review — looking for part suggestions!
« Reply #114 on: November 11, 2017, 02:37:00 pm »
The Renesas RL-78 is one of the best MCUs in this price range (considering performance and power consumption), has fantastic free dev tools, and it's virtually unheard of in the U.S.
But if you do have a problem, good luck getting any support. Manufacturer will not respond unless you are buying millions, and there is no public support, since nobody uses them in hobby and small scale projects.

Okay, so Renesas won't help you, so how about others?

My experience with STM32 is that if you really need support, you won't get any.

Sure, if you are a total beginner and need to see a copypaste of an example code how to get a LED blinking, you'll get it from the forums. They are great for that.

With any real problem, you are on your own.

For example, when reporting a non-documented silicon bug and asking how to proceed from there, even as a business customer, ST just ignores you.

And ST is one of the most used and well known players on the ARM market, STM32 being a well known brand.

I guess it's the same game with everyone, really. We just have the feeling of "having support" when we work with the "well known" names, whereas in reality, we can only help ourselves. Starting from the risk that we never know if some part will be available tomorrow or not.

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Quality of documentation and the exactness of it (i.e., is the product working within spec sheet / reference manual?) is, IMO, one of the most important criteria. Even a slightly poor choice of words can easily cost 10 hours of engineering time due to confusion and wrong assumptions. An omission of a small detail may cost another 10 hours. A copy-paste error or a typo is 10 hours more, then a undocumented silicon bug eats 50 hours extra. These do add up, this is typical design flow with STM32 in my experience.

Unfortunately, this is very time-consuming to evaluate. You'll know once you have fully stepped in and done full designs with said chips. And at that point, you consider yourself an experienced designer on said architecture, don't want to try anything else, since you already have "won" the battle and fear that another product family will bring you back to square one again.
 

Offline mrcrud5

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Re: $1 MCU review — looking for part suggestions!
« Reply #115 on: November 24, 2017, 12:44:27 pm »
This post got a shout out on the amp hour!
 

Online coppice

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Re: $1 MCU review — looking for part suggestions!
« Reply #116 on: November 24, 2017, 12:56:07 pm »
Also, don't forget those Taiwanese OTP MCUs targeting white appliances. Some Holtek and Elan MCUs may be down to a few cents.
Those unpackaged OTP bare dice may be even cheaper (the ones found in Chinese toys).
They typically require NDA and expensive compiler software and programmer hardware, but running cost for mass production is super ultra cheap.
Expensive compiler software and programmer hardware is an interesting industry dynamic. When the required tools are rather expensive they are such an impediment to sales that they typically get "loaned" to serious high volume developers. Of course, their useful life is not that great, as the target devices become obsolete quite quickly, so the "loaned" items never really go back to the vendor at the end of projects. For the developer, those "expensive" tools cost less than a simple JTAG gadget for programming a flash MCU.
 

Offline technix

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Re: $1 MCU review — looking for part suggestions!
« Reply #117 on: November 25, 2017, 09:28:09 am »
Also, don't forget those Taiwanese OTP MCUs targeting white appliances. Some Holtek and Elan MCUs may be down to a few cents.
Those unpackaged OTP bare dice may be even cheaper (the ones found in Chinese toys).
They typically require NDA and expensive compiler software and programmer hardware, but running cost for mass production is super ultra cheap.
Expensive compiler software and programmer hardware is an interesting industry dynamic. When the required tools are rather expensive they are such an impediment to sales that they typically get "loaned" to serious high volume developers. Of course, their useful life is not that great, as the target devices become obsolete quite quickly, so the "loaned" items never really go back to the vendor at the end of projects. For the developer, those "expensive" tools cost less than a simple JTAG gadget for programming a flash MCU.
That is kind of a barrier keeping individual hackers out of their ecosystem, and locking existing customers in.
 

Offline westfw

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Re: $1 MCU review — looking for part suggestions!
« Reply #118 on: December 06, 2017, 01:59:01 am »
I'm currently trying to resist buying a bunch of < $0.25 Freescale S09 chips that Newark is flushing...  Sigh.
 

Offline technix

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Re: $1 MCU review — looking for part suggestions!
« Reply #119 on: December 06, 2017, 08:26:02 am »
I'm currently trying to resist buying a bunch of < $0.25 Freescale S09 chips that Newark is flushing...  Sigh.
What are those? And how do you program them?
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: $1 MCU review — looking for part suggestions!
« Reply #120 on: December 06, 2017, 10:29:12 am »
$0.25 is expensive. You can get an ATTiny5 for $0.20 at Digikey, and $0.168 if you buy 100. But the flash size is very small. If you pay $0.35, you can get an ATTiny9, which can be used to play a chiptune:

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Offline westfw

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Re: $1 MCU review — looking for part suggestions!
« Reply #121 on: December 06, 2017, 08:47:07 pm »
Quote
Quote
trying to resist buying a bunch of < $0.25 Freescale S09 chips that Newark is flushing.
What are those? And how do you program them?

Oh, like ($0.05): http://www.newark.com/nxp/mc9rs08kb2csc/microcontroller-mcu-8-bit-rs08/dp/29R0568
Or ($0.08): http://www.newark.com/nxp/mc9s08qd4msc/microcontroller-mcu-8-bit-s08/dp/22M5768
(There are more <$0.20, but the "sort" function doesn't recognize "special" prices...)

If I understand the history right, the HC08 is an enhancement of the old 6805 (which was a "microcontroller oriented) 6800?), the S08 is a modernized version of that, and the RS08 is a "reduced" S08 (rather unpleasantly: looks like 1 level of subroutine "stack"!)  They're 8-bit accumulator/memory architecture with index register; rather CISCy.  You can still download free "Codewarrior for microcontrollers" that has "unlimited assembler" and "C compiler with irrelevant restrictions for those chips" (though I'm not sure how that'd work for the RS08!)
Something like "high voltage serial programmer" and or "Background Debug Mode" (both documented and with some Open Source implementations.)
While accumulator architectures are out-of-style, the old motorola implementations were supposed to be "pretty good", and these aren't yet actually "discontinued" (though they're not too cheap "normally"), so you could do worse in a search for ultra-cheap jellybean microcontrollers for trivial applications.  (And I have.  Anybody want some OTP Toshiba 4-bit microcontrollers?  :-(  The whole "these things can't be THAT hard to use" feeling is an illusion.  Thus my attempt to "resist.")
 

Offline technix

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Re: $1 MCU review — looking for part suggestions!
« Reply #122 on: December 07, 2017, 10:07:15 am »
Quote
Quote
trying to resist buying a bunch of < $0.25 Freescale S09 chips that Newark is flushing.
What are those? And how do you program them?

Oh, like ($0.05): http://www.newark.com/nxp/mc9rs08kb2csc/microcontroller-mcu-8-bit-rs08/dp/29R0568
Or ($0.08): http://www.newark.com/nxp/mc9s08qd4msc/microcontroller-mcu-8-bit-s08/dp/22M5768
(There are more <$0.20, but the "sort" function doesn't recognize "special" prices...)

If I understand the history right, the HC08 is an enhancement of the old 6805 (which was a "microcontroller oriented) 6800?), the S08 is a modernized version of that, and the RS08 is a "reduced" S08 (rather unpleasantly: looks like 1 level of subroutine "stack"!)  They're 8-bit accumulator/memory architecture with index register; rather CISCy.  You can still download free "Codewarrior for microcontrollers" that has "unlimited assembler" and "C compiler with irrelevant restrictions for those chips" (though I'm not sure how that'd work for the RS08!)
Something like "high voltage serial programmer" and or "Background Debug Mode" (both documented and with some Open Source implementations.)
While accumulator architectures are out-of-style, the old motorola implementations were supposed to be "pretty good", and these aren't yet actually "discontinued" (though they're not too cheap "normally"), so you could do worse in a search for ultra-cheap jellybean microcontrollers for trivial applications.  (And I have.  Anybody want some OTP Toshiba 4-bit microcontrollers?  :-(  The whole "these things can't be THAT hard to use" feeling is an illusion.  Thus my attempt to "resist.")
Well it is likely that if I ever want to build anything around those I will first need to build myself the programmer and debugger hardware. It is good that my computer actually still had a Super I/O ISA parallel port available but how to get it to show up in macOS... Just like my 8051 boards which is stuck in a dev tool limbo.

Maybe I have to stick to STM32 and other ARM for a while.
 


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