Author Topic: 87c521 programmer  (Read 6214 times)

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Offline Stonent

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87c521 programmer
« on: May 21, 2014, 01:29:17 pm »
A few years back I mentioned I had a few Intel 87C521 chips and I'd really like to do something with them, even if it's just make a centipede that sits on my desk and blinks lights.  :-+

These are all date coded 1980, does anyone know of a DIY programmer for them that could be built on a breadboard? Pretty much everything I'm finding is a commercial programmer, and that's not really worth the money just to give these some kind of use. I have access to a real serial port if needed but no parallel port unless I dig through some junk and build something.
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Offline 22swg

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Re: 87c521 programmer
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2014, 05:07:20 pm »
I have a couple of these , I think they are 8051 core , you could do a bb mcu / serial programmer  , but you need > 24 I/O pins , TX RX and  a clock and Vpp  I started way back using an 8255 ! perhaps now a PIC16F877 could do it , the encryption bytes may be an issue if it has them ?

think this is right....

Quick-Pulse Programming
The setup for microcontroller quick-pulse programming is shown in  Figure 26. Note that the device is running with a 4 to 6 MHz
oscillator. The reason the oscillator needs to be running is that the device is executing internal address and program data transfers.
The address of the EPROM location to be programmed is applied to ports 1 and 2, as shown in Figure 26. The code byte to be
programmed into that location is applied to port 0. RST, PSEN and pins of ports 2 and 3 specified in Table 8 are held at the ‘Program
Code Data’ levels indicated in Table 8. The ALE/PROG is pulsed low 5 times as shown in Figure 27.
To program the encryption table, repeat the 5 pulse programming sequence for addresses 0 through 1FH, using the ‘Pgm Encryption
Table’ levels. Do not forget that after the encryption table is programmed, verification cycles will produce only encrypted data.
To program the security bits, repeat the 5 pulse programming sequence using the ‘Pgm Security Bit’ levels. After one security bit is
programmed, further programming of the code memory and encryption table is disabled. However, the other security bits can still
be programmed.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 06:36:35 pm by 22swg »
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Offline amyk

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Re: 87c521 programmer
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2014, 10:01:44 pm »
Are you sure they're made by Intel? I can't find any reference to Intel having made an 87C521, but AMD sure has; the datasheet is here: http://www.ryston.cz/pdf5/87541.pdf

Programming algorithm is outlined in there; a shift register could be used to solve the problem of limited I/O, and if you have a bench supply that can output the Vpp (12.75V) then that will also work.
 

Offline Stonent

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Re: 87c521 programmer
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2014, 01:25:32 am »
Yes Intel P87C521.



They are in a 40 Pin DIP package, labeled
P87C521
L1027A32F
Intel (M) (C) 1980
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 01:37:09 am by Stonent »
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Offline 22swg

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Re: 87c521 programmer
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2014, 02:07:00 am »
These are one time program devices  ( no window )  they may already have been programmed ?  My 87C251 had uv windows
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Offline Stonent

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Re: 87c521 programmer
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2014, 02:29:31 am »
These are one time program devices  ( no window )  they may already have been programmed ?  My 87C251 had uv windows

The ones I had came out of a full tube, so I assume they had never been programmed.


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Online rsjsouza

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Re: 87c521 programmer
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2014, 03:43:37 am »
These are P87C52-1 from Intel... The datasheet indicates they should be EPROM, but I wonder if someone with a deep enough pocket had ordered this (supposedly) OTP version...

(edit) found this page that mentions a programmer...
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 03:45:47 am by rsjsouza »
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Offline SeanB

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Re: 87c521 programmer
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2014, 05:19:55 am »
Development versions were cerdip packages so you could erase, but for small runs they used a plastic package and the same code. Often you could order the devices direct from Intel with the data already programmed into it. Made manufacturing easier then for a run of 2-3 thousand devices.
 

Online rsjsouza

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Re: 87c521 programmer
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2014, 05:54:30 am »
That would be a bummer SeanB...

In early 1990s I used a lot of the CerDIP EPROM '51 variants... 87C51FA and FB versions at an astounding 16kB ROM / 128B RAM! The FC version was deemed too expensive for our product... (I wish I could remember the price)
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline westfw

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Re: 87c521 programmer
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2014, 06:24:04 am »
I have some 8752s lying around too (real ones, with windows!)  I keep thinking that I should do something with them, but I can't decide between "build the classic 4-chip 8052 system!  Because it's classic!" and "throw them away!  If you really want to program an 8051, get one of the modern chips with serial-programmable lots-of-flash and a decent set of on-chip peripherals."
 

Offline 22swg

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Re: 87c521 programmer
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2014, 06:37:54 am »
ShawnB  Hit the chip on the head   we sometimes got boards from the factory with  mods or updates with 87xx chips , before they could get ROM based chips onto the production line  usually they replaced 8041 keyboard controllers. 

westfw  are there not any DIY 8752 program circuits  around...   I will check my magazines from the 1980's   8)
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 06:39:29 am by 22swg »
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Offline westfw

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Re: 87c521 programmer
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2014, 04:54:23 pm »
Hmm.  I actually have an ancient device programmer that will program 8051s, and my idea was to burn a bootloader that read serial eeprom into big RAM chips.

(The traditional 4-chip system I refer to has an 8052, perhaps with built-in 8052 BASIC, a RAM chip (typical 8k) for data, an EPROM for code (typical 32k), and some decode logic.  For example http://www.dos4ever.com/8031board/8031board.html  People forgo programming the 8051 itself and just operate it in external memory mode, because it is (was) easy to find EPROM programmers (and "obsolete" ROM 8052s who internal code could be ignored were cheap on the surplus market.)  You could do the same thing these days with a parallel flash chip, or NVRAM, replacing the EPROM; those would be relatively easy to program (no more weird voltage requirements.))
 

Offline 22swg

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Re: 87c521 programmer
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2014, 06:41:39 pm »
westfw  . Thanks for the link , I probably have some of those IC's  somewhere in my junk, like the idea of a resident boot loading rom to ram and on stripboard  :clap: I had all the gear to program UVPROM  (DOS based ! ART programmer ) think I recycled some of it...still have a bag of 27C512's ,  might look into designing a PIC based 87xx programmer if i get time  :-\

Edit
Why do i keep this stuff ! been through my archive  , find my chips are not 78C521 but C7851H ... 
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 11:16:07 pm by 22swg »
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Offline westfw

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Re: 87c521 programmer
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2014, 06:46:27 pm »
(oops.  5 chips; I forgot the address latch.)
 

Offline Stonent

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Re: 87c521 programmer
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2014, 10:12:06 am »
Well now I'm very interested in the 8052 basic computer that boots off the external eprom.
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Offline SeanB

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Re: 87c521 programmer
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2014, 11:06:34 am »
I have a LED clock that uses an 8748 chip as a microcontroller. Must try to read it sometime to get a copy of the ROM programmed into it. I got it at a hamfest, but it came with no info, though I was able to dead bug a keyboard to it to set time, and it uses a RTC clock on board which keeps really good time.
 

Offline 22swg

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Re: 87c521 programmer
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2014, 05:47:55 pm »
Stonent
your original post has got my grey cell buzzing … probably cause its old stuff,  I put a possible 875x programmer design together from bits I have got and trying to keep the soldering to a minimum …  Chose PIC16Fxxxx as I have blocks of code for I2C , key pad etc working…. version 1 attached.
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Offline Stonent

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Re: 87c521 programmer
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2014, 02:38:04 am »
In the schematic ( http://www.dos4ever.com/8031board/8031board.html ) for the computer linked earlier, the author uses:

74HCT00
74HCT138
74HCT573
62256 SRAM
and various Eproms

Last night I found a board in my collection that has all of these:

74HC00B1 Quad 2-input NAND gate
74HC138E 3-to-8 line decoder/demultiplexer; inverting
74HC373AP Octal D-type transparent latch; 3-state
AT28C256 256K 32K x 8 paged parallel EEPROM
D43256BCZ-70L 32K x 8 Static Mix-Mos RAM

If I understand the datasheet correctly, the 373 and 573 are essentially the same chip but with a different pinout.

Does anyone think the 43256 SRAM would work in place of the 62256? (pinout seems the same)
And does anyone think that using HC instead of HCT could cause a problem in this circuit.  If I understand what I read, HC doesn't necessarily go all the way to 5V on a high like an HCT does.
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Offline dannyf

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Re: 87c521 programmer
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2014, 03:29:02 am »
Quote
In the schematic ( http://www.dos4ever.com/8031board/8031board.html ) for the computer linked earlier

Quote
MCS BASIC-52

Wow! It brought back memories of me working on my very first mcus in the 1980s.

We have come a loooooooong way since then.


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Offline 22swg

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Re: 87c521 programmer
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2014, 06:01:40 am »
Stonent.. The 74 logic chips should not be a problem , check the pin out as you have found, The D43256BCZ-70L   would appear to be near to the speed of the 62256 at 70ns read time , ( hence the -70) , depends on the MIPS of the cpu  at 12 ish ? Mhz  and any memory timing delays in SW.
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Offline Stonent

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Re: 87c521 programmer
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2014, 06:41:03 am »
I went ahead and just bought the hct chips locally. It will save me from desoldering. While I was at that store I picked up an unknown 2x30 LCD with screw terminals that happens to have a tiny Philips 8051 varient on it.
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Offline hwarin

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Re: 87c521 programmer
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2018, 09:05:24 am »
Hi,

I would like to read the contents of a (unique ?) AMD D87C521 but I don't think that I have any programmer able to use it (as I've only got a TL866A at hands and a WILLEM that I've never been able to use properly).

I've found the datasheet here : https://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf/download.php?id=89e77838ffbc5fa000d9ed2b62e45407420089&type=O&term=87C521

If lock bits aren't activated :
==> Do you think that I may build a sort of "reader" for this thing, possibly using an Arduino and a 8255 ?
==> Does someone have a schematic or whatever readilly available ?

Thanks for your help.

Regards - Hervé


 

Offline westfw

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Re: 87c521 programmer
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2018, 11:44:36 am »
Quote
I would like to read the contents of a (unique ?) AMD D87C521
It looks like it should be pin, voltage, and read-algorithm ("program verify") compatible with a standard 80c51 - are you sure you can't just read it with your TL866?
 

Offline hwarin

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Re: 87c521 programmer
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2018, 08:18:52 am »
Hi, Westfw,

Thanks for your interest for my question - In fact, I'm not certain about TL866 capacity to properly read this MCU - I can find the Intel 87C52 component but from my understanding, it should (may ?) need a crystal and so on for proper use as per AMD's datasheet. I've never did such an operation and I wouldn't take risks with this D87C521.

Any help/precision welcome.

Regards - Hervé
 

Offline technix

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Re: 87c521 programmer
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2018, 12:25:05 pm »
These are OTP EPROM parts... AFAIK the best current solution to use them is not using the internal EPROM at all, and hook it up to some external EEPROM and boot from there. Actually if you give them external EEPROM try Von Neumann connect it, since executable external SRAM makes some weird and wonderful projects.
 


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