Author Topic: Chinese ATMega88 clone  (Read 23675 times)

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Offline Stonent

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Re: Chinese ATMega88 clone
« Reply #50 on: December 19, 2013, 03:27:26 am »
If memory serves, AMD was a "second source" manufacturer making the 486 (386?) under Intel license.

Going back further than that, too -- I've seen AMD-fabbed 80186s, for instance.  Not sure about anything older than that, though.

I think it was 8080 through 286. When Intel started reconfiguring for the 386, AMD started making faster 286 CPUs. Then Intel decided to end their relationship with AMD because they didn't want to share the 386 market with them. Lawsuits back and forth took place.  AMD wasn't sure if they'd win in the end so they started a clean-room reverse engineering of the 386 and made socket compatible CPUs through the P55C architecture. When Intel released the Pentium II, AMD continued the P55C/Socket 7 platform by upping the data bus to 100MHz.

When the Athlon came out, the bus it used was based on the DEC Alpha 21264 EV6 bus but coupled to DDR RAM, while Intel was making a failed attempt at supporting SDRAM and Rambus at the same time.  (Which also included motherboard recalls due to design flaws in the SDRAM support)

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Offline Rick Law

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Re: Chinese ATMega88 clone
« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2013, 06:53:06 pm »
If memory serves, AMD was a "second source" manufacturer making the 486 (386?) under Intel license.

Going back further than that, too -- I've seen AMD-fabbed 80186s, for instance.  Not sure about anything older than that, though.

I think it was 8080 through 286. When Intel started reconfiguring for the 386, AMD started making faster 286 CPUs. Then Intel decided to end their relationship with AMD because they didn't want to share the 386 market with them. Lawsuits back and forth took place.  AMD wasn't sure if they'd win in the end so they started a clean-room reverse engineering of the 386 and made socket compatible CPUs through the P55C architecture. When Intel released the Pentium II, AMD continued the P55C/Socket 7 platform by upping the data bus to 100MHz.

When the Athlon came out, the bus it used was based on the DEC Alpha 21264 EV6 bus but coupled to DDR RAM, while Intel was making a failed attempt at supporting SDRAM and Rambus at the same time.  (Which also included motherboard recalls due to design flaws in the SDRAM support)

I guess I forgot more than I remembered...

Someone once said, 5 years in business is a life time (and he was not even referring to computers).  The 8080... that was many many life times ago for the microprocessor business.
 

Offline AndersAnd

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Re: Chinese ATMega88 clone
« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2014, 05:54:38 pm »
They have a comparison sheet on their website.
They also added a new PDF document a couple of weeks ago:

Migrating from ATMega88 to LGT8F88A http://www.lgtic.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/migrating_from_atmega88_to_lgt8f88a_v1.0.pdf

Quote
DEVELOPMENT AND DEBUG

LGT8F88A is fully compatible with ATMega88 from architecture view. It support most of instructions from AVR8L sets, except for SPM which implemented with another way. So any software development environments for ATMega88 are also working for LGT8F88A. Here we give some of them for example:
  • AVR Studio 4.18, AVR Studio 6.0 build 1843 & 1996 (support hardware debug)
  • IAR Workbench for AVR (any version, support hardware debug)
  • Image craft compiler for AVR
  • Code Vision AVR C compiler
  • WinAVR (support debug by GDB)
  • CrossPack for AVR (for Mac OSX)
  • AVRGCC tool chain (for Linux)
But for development hardware support, the difference comes again. You cannot use debug or ISP hardware for ATMega88 to connect with LGT8F88A. Instead, we provide our own debugger and ISP hardware.
We provide SWDICE_mkII hardware to support debugger & ISP. This is only hardware you need to do debug and program.
SWDICE_mkII is also compatible with AVR Studio, you can just treat it as JTAGICE_mkII, but is only designed for LGT8F88A. Besides a debugger, SWDICE_mkII can be reused as a programmer hardware.
There are many popular ASP&ISP toolkit for AVR, the avrdude is the famous one. SWDICE_mkII can also support avrdude through jtag2isp protocol.
We also provide a dedicated ISP toolkit for LGT8F88A, LGTMix_ISP, can be get from our official web site.
LGTMix_ISP support SWDICE_mkII, can be used as a full feature ISP toolkit for LGT8F88A and also for all other microcontrollers designed by LogicGreen.
For usage details of LGTMix_ISP toolkit, please refer to “In system programming” section.

As shown from above picture, ICCAVR and CVAVR which have no debugger and programmer support can be used together with LGTMix_ISP and SWDICE_mkII to burn generated firmware code to target boarder.
We have also port optiboot to support LGT8F88A, so if you got a LGT8F88A Arduino compatible board, you can update firmware by Arduino or avrdude directly.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 06:18:08 pm by AndersAnd »
 

Offline LukeW

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Re: Chinese ATMega88 clone
« Reply #53 on: January 08, 2014, 03:04:01 pm »
Personally I'm not convinced that much good comes from this "race to the bottom of the market" in terms of ultra-cheap hardware with every possible corner cut off it.

They've used a CP2102 as the USB virtual UART chipset. How fast is this virtual UART? Probably significantly slower than the speeds you will expect with an ATmega8U2-based system. And you'll need the drivers for that chipset installed on your PC, too. Are working drivers available to suit your operating system? Maybe.

You need a custom-patched version of the Arduino IDE to add support for this hardware target. You can't just use it with a stock Arduino IDE that you've downloaded and installed.

And if the firmware on the microcontroller is somehow corrupted or replaced, are the appropriate files, toolchain and documentation available to allow you to successfully re-flash it? It's not clear that this is available. And if not, what? You throw the hardware in the bin?

In some of the photos it looks like they're not even populating a crystal on the board. Are they using an internal RC oscillator? Then for best results the user should understand that that's the case, and that you can't have really accurate timing.

And they've changed the voltage regulators... how well documented is that? Are the specs really trustworthy?

They specify the maximum allowable input voltage is 24V... and you can clearly see there are a couple of 25V rated tantalum caps in the power supply input part of the board. Thick purple tantalum smoke here we come!  Even if you use the board within a reasonable voltage limit of say 15V, what is the realistic current output available from the 5V and 3.3V pins to power external loads?

And even if the microcontroller really was "close enough" to an ATmega88, you have to recognize the memory limitations of an ATmega88 compared to an ATmega328 you might be used to. Even with support for that chip added to the Arduino IDE, it is likely that many existing Arduino programs that are tested and working on a real Arduino Uno or equivalent will not work.

Many of today's Arduino programs/examples out there in the community will fail to work on an Arduino bootloader equipped ATmega168 with 16k of Flash, and going to an ATmega88 is half as much again.

And when it all goes pear shaped, somebody who doesn't really know what they're buying goes and posts on the Arduino forums etc and says I bought an "Arduino" and it doesn't work! And the Arduino team in Italy, understandably, gets pissed off.

If the third-party company released Arduino-compatible products clearly labelled with their own brand, under their own name, with their own website where you could go to for support questions for that company's products, and it was clear that this is not "from Arduino", it's released and supported and manufactured by a third party company even though it is Arduino-compatible. A lot of the cheap Chinese hardware makers really fail to do this at all and I think this is what pisses off the Arduino team in Italy, whereas Sparkfun or Freetronics, for example, are responsible in this regard.

Basically, lots of little subtle complexities make it harder to use, especially for less experienced users who are just starting out learning to work with Arduino. For users who are just starting out learning to work with Arduino, I would recommend buying a known reliable, well supported hardware platform, from the official Italian Arduino team or from Freetronics for example.

The people that this hurts the most are newbie Arduino beginners, not experienced electronics enthusiasts who understand what they are and are not buying.
And then they go and complain to the Arduino forums or something that "their Arduino does't work!"

And then what? The Arduino team gets pissed off about "counterfeiting", the Arduino team is more likely, perhaps, to move away from openness in the future and start keeping designs closed, and people think that Open Source Hardware is a failure from a business perspective and the misconception persists that you can't build a viable business around OSHW because China rips it off.

And the misconception persists that everything China makes is shit, and the misconception persists that as an engineer you can't touch China at all and you must not have them involved with your manufacturing at all because they are nothing but poor quality, IP theft and generally engineering poison. Are these misconceptions good for Chinese business? Wouldn't it be in their best interests to address them?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 03:06:23 pm by LukeW »
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Chinese ATMega88 clone
« Reply #54 on: January 08, 2014, 03:40:18 pm »
Quote
Personally I'm not convinced that much good comes from this "race to the bottom of the market" in terms of ultra-cheap hardware with every possible corner cut off it.

I think for a market to flourish, you need a broad spectrum of products, from Chevys to BMWs. As long as there are demands for such low-quality products, there should be such low-quality products - who are we to say only XYZ should be produced but not ABC? The freedom to choose includes the freedom to choose sub-par products - each and everyone of us does that everyday.

Quote
Are these misconceptions good for Chinese business?

It depends on how you position your products. If you are in the business of selling Chevys, you should not use high quality interior or fancy engines.

"Selling Chevys" is effectively where they are in their development cycle: they are following the footsteps of the Japanese (in the 60's and 70's) and the Americans (in the 30's and 40's).

20 years ago, China was the in the business of primarily exporting toys, shows and pencils. Give them another 20 years, god know what they will be exporting then.

So I wouldn't worry for them.
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Offline ataradov

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Re: Chinese ATMega88 clone
« Reply #55 on: January 13, 2014, 05:00:34 pm »
It is not like this is an official Arduino product. And there has been plenty of "compatible" clones, their market is so small that no one will notice.
Alex
 

Offline westfw

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Re: Chinese ATMega88 clone
« Reply #56 on: January 13, 2014, 05:14:41 pm »
I have a relatively large amount of respect for Itead and Seeed; they seem to "get" the open-source hardware culture, and their clones have been (frequently) boards with significant additional thought and design applied.   This is an interesting experiment on their part, and I hope it works out for them.  As others have pointed out, the "slightly cheaper clone of an Atmega88 *chip*" isn't very interesting "over here"; I do wonder whether it has implications for shipping the board to other parts of the world, though...
 

Offline miceuz

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Re: Chinese ATMega88 clone
« Reply #57 on: January 16, 2014, 12:24:41 pm »
I have chiped in for this board, yesterday got email, they are already shipping. It's easy to run electronics crowdfunding projects when you are basically a fab frontend :)

Will write a report when I get it.


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