Difference between Pickits

[nForce]

Hi,

I don't understand what is the difference between all these pickits you can buy online. There is 2.0, 2.5 and 3.0. If I buy 3.0 can I programm all chips? Even older ones? Is it compatible with all chips, or are there some software or hardware defects with pickit 3.0?

Thanks.

[JPortici]

i don't know what pickit 2.5 is

anyway, get a pickit 2 clone for veeeeeery old stuff
then get a genuine pickit 3 for everything else. better debugger, faster at downloading code in big chips, is the only cheap debugger/programmer for anything microchip produced in the last 6-7 years *


* actually you may be able to program some of the new chips using the pk2 if you manually add them and their parameters to the device list, but i'm confident that you can't with new dspic with codeguard, pic32mz, mm etc.

[tszaboo]

The version 2 was functionally superior to the 3. But 2 is no longer supported, so I suggest going with a 3.

[ptricks]

Go with the 3 unless you intend to use some very old pics, ones that needed high VPP for programming, those chips haven't been made in 10 + years.

[picandmix]

The simple answer is a Pickit3.

However it also depends if you are talking about a Genuine Microchip Pickit or a Far East cheap clone ?

Though Microchip no longer sell the Pk2, you can still buy, with guarantee, genuine Microchip Pk2 and Pk3 from the big dealers.

The far east suppliers have both at about 1/3 of microchips cost; I  have a Pk3 clone, its worked for me so far.


The key difference between the Pk2 and Pk3 is that the Pk3 does program all the newer chips, however the Pk2 still can program a lot of the commonly used chips you find in the online projects.

One of the problems with the Pk3 is that for each family of Pic chips eg 16F , 24, 32, you have to reload the appropriate code into the Pk3 which can be a pain; also many of the good Utilities that came with the Pk2 were missing from the original Pk3, though they have made some software improvements.

The pk2 2.5   - thats just a Pk2 where the far east sellers have added on some accessories, like cable or programming socket

[Howardlong]

One of the problems with the Pk3 is that for each family of Pic chips eg 16F , 24, 32, you have to reload the appropriate code into the Pk3 which can be a pain; also many of the good Utilities that came with the Pk2 were missing from the original Pk3, though they have made some software improvements.

The same applies to the MPLAB 3 and Real ICE too. Even going between different versions of MPLAB triggers a new firmware update which, just like when switching chips, can take a while and is far from reliable as it decouples while a forced USB re-enumeration occurs.

[stj]

i have both,

i recommend a chinese pk3 with the zif-socket programming adapter.
and i have to say, i may have purchased an original if microchip had also offered an adapter - there are times you need to read or program a chip that does not have a header on the target board.

what has not been mentioned yet, pk3 can operate at low voltages, pk2 is only 5v afaik.
so it probably wont work with the low votage stuff like the 24'series.

[VEGETA]

The version 2 was functionally superior to the 3. But 2 is no longer supported, so I suggest going with a 3.

How is it functionally superior?

[Gyro]

I see that some ebay sellers are now selling 'Pickit 3.5 upgraded models' (clearly not a reference to a Microchip programmer revision, it is Pickit 3 compatible but claims to offer the following improvements (over the Microchip Pickit 3 or the other clones?):

1. The firmware is never lost, firmware can be self-healing, to avoid demolition case.
2. Offline programming never crash, so download more smoothly and completely conquer all versions of MPLAB, MPLAB X.
3. Each PICkit3.5 with a unique serial number, in MPLAB X under, can operate multiple Kit3.5.
4. Increase the external power supply current, the output voltage is more stable.
5. The interface protection is more perfect.

I know that the 'firmware bricking' used to be a genuine Pickit 3 problem, don't know if it still is? I've also seen references in other threads to the clones all having the same serial number making it impossible to use more than one unit at a time. I don't know about the other stuff.

Has anyone tried one of these? Is this a case of genuine evolution against the Microchip original or just a better copy of it?

[VEGETA]

I believe if there is a good evolution to PICKit3, Microchip would have done it already. Words like "firmware self-healing" is nothing but BS words.

[Gyro]

Yes, probably so. I suppose they might possibly have enableded additional write protection on the bootloader, who knows.  I can see the individual serial numbers (like genuine ones) being an worthwile improvement over other clones though for multiple device setups.

[JPortici]

Also because those without serial number are probably not going to work anymore. I have a clone, i can use it only on older versions on a windows machine. On a mac it's almost impossible to make it go
I also have a genuine so screw it.

The only real issue with the pickit 3, in my opinion, is the target power supply. It's nowhere as good as with the pickit 2. Granted, you can go much lower in voltage but you can't supply 5 volts on anything that isn't mid-range, you will get an error that the read target voltage doesn't correspond to the set voltage so i have to go down to a freaking 2.8V to power the chip i have to program without getting errors.

It's not the usb voltage. it's not the target current consumption. It's in the pickit 3. Besides that, i don't care for programming eeprom, or the logic analyzer, i care about a more powerful debugger and a much higher programming speed.

[Ian.M]

what has not been mentioned yet, pk3 can operate at low voltages, pk2 is only 5v afaik.
so it probably wont work with the low votage stuff like the 24'series.

Actually, the genuine PICkit 2 has variable Vdd and can go down to 2.7V.  It supports the older PIC24F and PIC24FJ parts.

[KL27x]

Has anyone tried one of these? Is this a case of genuine evolution against the Microchip original or just a better copy of it?

I haven't tried it yet. But if it does the things it says, it is not just a better copy. All those things except for 3 ARE problems on a genuine PK3.

down to 2.7V

PK2 software suggest it goes down to 2.5V, anyway.

It works for modern 1.8V (8 bit, anyway) devices, but if the circuit can't tolerate over 2.5V/2.7V, you obviously can't power from the PICKIT2.

PK3 has less tolerance for capacitance or impedance on programming pins. It has buggy offline programming. It has weak power output. Basically, PK2 is a better production programmer. Of course neither one is recommended for that (by Microchip).

[Ian.M]

The PICkit 3 uses 74LVC1T45 level translating buffers, which have a minimum operating voltage of 1.65V.  Any limitations on the minimum voltage are purely down to the minimum specified Vdd for programming for the part in question and the software.   The PICkit 2 however doesn't have level translating buffers - instead it uses a series resistance and a clamp.  This is OK for output, but causes problems reading or verifying at low voltages when the logic '1' level from the target PIC isn't enough to reach the minimum logic '1' threshold of the PIC18F2550 Port A pins which is 2.0V.  Therefore the software limits the minimum voltage to 2.5V.   

The PICkit 3 has better hardware (apart from the crappy lightpipes and bad choice of LEDs for a translucent case) but is *STILL* let down by crappy software even after over 7 years of development.

[Bruce Abbott]

causes problems reading or verifying at low voltages when the logic '1' level from the target PIC isn't enough to reach the minimum logic '1' threshold of the PIC18F2550 Port A pins which is 2.0V.  Therefore the software limits the minimum voltage to 2.5V.

So if you don't intend to program chips at less than 2.5V it's fine? Doesn't seem like much of a problem.

OTOH, if you must have a programmer that is guaranteed to program the very latest PICs then I guess you need a PICKit3.

Build Your Own PICKit 2 Clone
Flash programming utility for Microchip PIC32 microcontrollers

[KL27x]

Ahh, clears things up. I guess you can't ICSP a device running at 1.8V with PK2, then. I've never had occasion to miss that capability.

Basically, PK2 is more limited in the software, features, and device list. But it executes better or more reliably at what it covers in most aspects, with at least this one exception. And PK2 is not cross platform. Windows, only. I wouldn't throw away the PK2 after buying a PK3. It's strange to me that they ran the "trade in" program. The PK2 is a better tool for certain things.

[NorthGuy]

Ahh, clears things up. I guess you can't ICSP a device running at 1.8V with PK2, then. I've never had occasion to miss that capability.

Usually, you cannot program at 1.8V anyway. Bulk erase on most PICs require higher voltage. You can program (at least partially) without bulk erase, but I don't think PK3 can do this.

PK2 had better concept, PK3 is better electrically. You cannot program much with PK2 though, mostly older obsolete parts.

[KL27x]

mostly older obsolete parts.

PK2 had better concept

Did you mix this up? Perhaps execution is the word. Or are you suggesting the PK3 concept was too overly ambitious/complicated from the start? ...  Cuz the PK3 concept seems to be to do everything the PK2 does, and more. For a lot of people this seems to be the case. It seems to be dependent on what system they're running and what chip family (along with perhaps what buggy features they don't use ).

[NorthGuy]

Did you mix this up? Perhaps execution is the word. Or are you suggesting the PK3 concept was too overly ambitious/complicated from the start? ...  Cuz the PK3 concept seems to be to do everything the PK2 does, and more. For a lot of people this seems to be the case. It seems to be dependent on what system they're running and what chip family (along with perhaps what buggy features they don't use ).

Concept is a general idea. I guess it was changed in PK3 to allow for On-The-Go programming. Instead of scripting which was used in PK2, the new concept places the programming logic within PK3. This makes it less reliable and considerably slower. PK3 certainly has its share of over-complication.

[VEGETA]

Well, since we are talking PICKit 3... do you think Microchip will make a new version? something that could program AVRs too?

[stj]

Well, since we are talking PICKit 3... do you think Microchip will make a new version? something that could program AVRs too?

pickit2 can program AVR's - use avrdude software.

pickit3 could with a firmware update - but i think microchip is trying to keep it's pic & avr lines seperate.

[nForce]

How do you program AVR now? Link?

[Ian.M]

I suspect the PICkit 2 emulation firmware loaded by the PICkit 3 Programming App and Scripting Tool v3.10 is close enough for AVRDUDE to be able to use it. At most, it may need a small patch so AVRDUDE recognises it as a PICkit 2.

[stj]

How do you program AVR now? Link?

page 20
http://download.savannah.gnu.org/releases/avrdude/avrdude-doc-6.3.pdf