Difference between Pickits

[nForce]

Hi,

I don't understand what is the difference between all these pickits you can buy online. There is 2.0, 2.5 and 3.0. If I buy 3.0 can I programm all chips? Even older ones? Is it compatible with all chips, or are there some software or hardware defects with pickit 3.0?

Thanks.

[JPortici]

i don't know what pickit 2.5 is

anyway, get a pickit 2 clone for veeeeeery old stuff
then get a genuine pickit 3 for everything else. better debugger, faster at downloading code in big chips, is the only cheap debugger/programmer for anything microchip produced in the last 6-7 years *


* actually you may be able to program some of the new chips using the pk2 if you manually add them and their parameters to the device list, but i'm confident that you can't with new dspic with codeguard, pic32mz, mm etc.

[tszaboo]

The version 2 was functionally superior to the 3. But 2 is no longer supported, so I suggest going with a 3.

[ptricks]

Go with the 3 unless you intend to use some very old pics, ones that needed high VPP for programming, those chips haven't been made in 10 + years.

[picandmix]

The simple answer is a Pickit3.

However it also depends if you are talking about a Genuine Microchip Pickit or a Far East cheap clone ?

Though Microchip no longer sell the Pk2, you can still buy, with guarantee, genuine Microchip Pk2 and Pk3 from the big dealers.

The far east suppliers have both at about 1/3 of microchips cost; I  have a Pk3 clone, its worked for me so far.


The key difference between the Pk2 and Pk3 is that the Pk3 does program all the newer chips, however the Pk2 still can program a lot of the commonly used chips you find in the online projects.

One of the problems with the Pk3 is that for each family of Pic chips eg 16F , 24, 32, you have to reload the appropriate code into the Pk3 which can be a pain; also many of the good Utilities that came with the Pk2 were missing from the original Pk3, though they have made some software improvements.

The pk2 2.5   - thats just a Pk2 where the far east sellers have added on some accessories, like cable or programming socket

[Howardlong]

One of the problems with the Pk3 is that for each family of Pic chips eg 16F , 24, 32, you have to reload the appropriate code into the Pk3 which can be a pain; also many of the good Utilities that came with the Pk2 were missing from the original Pk3, though they have made some software improvements.

The same applies to the MPLAB 3 and Real ICE too. Even going between different versions of MPLAB triggers a new firmware update which, just like when switching chips, can take a while and is far from reliable as it decouples while a forced USB re-enumeration occurs.

[stj]

i have both,

i recommend a chinese pk3 with the zif-socket programming adapter.
and i have to say, i may have purchased an original if microchip had also offered an adapter - there are times you need to read or program a chip that does not have a header on the target board.

what has not been mentioned yet, pk3 can operate at low voltages, pk2 is only 5v afaik.
so it probably wont work with the low votage stuff like the 24'series.

[VEGETA]

The version 2 was functionally superior to the 3. But 2 is no longer supported, so I suggest going with a 3.

How is it functionally superior?

[Gyro]

I see that some ebay sellers are now selling 'Pickit 3.5 upgraded models' (clearly not a reference to a Microchip programmer revision, it is Pickit 3 compatible but claims to offer the following improvements (over the Microchip Pickit 3 or the other clones?):

1. The firmware is never lost, firmware can be self-healing, to avoid demolition case.
2. Offline programming never crash, so download more smoothly and completely conquer all versions of MPLAB, MPLAB X.
3. Each PICkit3.5 with a unique serial number, in MPLAB X under, can operate multiple Kit3.5.
4. Increase the external power supply current, the output voltage is more stable.
5. The interface protection is more perfect.

I know that the 'firmware bricking' used to be a genuine Pickit 3 problem, don't know if it still is? I've also seen references in other threads to the clones all having the same serial number making it impossible to use more than one unit at a time. I don't know about the other stuff.

Has anyone tried one of these? Is this a case of genuine evolution against the Microchip original or just a better copy of it?

[VEGETA]

I believe if there is a good evolution to PICKit3, Microchip would have done it already. Words like "firmware self-healing" is nothing but BS words.

[Gyro]

Yes, probably so. I suppose they might possibly have enableded additional write protection on the bootloader, who knows.  I can see the individual serial numbers (like genuine ones) being an worthwile improvement over other clones though for multiple device setups.

[JPortici]

Also because those without serial number are probably not going to work anymore. I have a clone, i can use it only on older versions on a windows machine. On a mac it's almost impossible to make it go
I also have a genuine so screw it.

The only real issue with the pickit 3, in my opinion, is the target power supply. It's nowhere as good as with the pickit 2. Granted, you can go much lower in voltage but you can't supply 5 volts on anything that isn't mid-range, you will get an error that the read target voltage doesn't correspond to the set voltage so i have to go down to a freaking 2.8V to power the chip i have to program without getting errors.

It's not the usb voltage. it's not the target current consumption. It's in the pickit 3. Besides that, i don't care for programming eeprom, or the logic analyzer, i care about a more powerful debugger and a much higher programming speed.

[Ian.M]

what has not been mentioned yet, pk3 can operate at low voltages, pk2 is only 5v afaik.
so it probably wont work with the low votage stuff like the 24'series.

Actually, the genuine PICkit 2 has variable Vdd and can go down to 2.7V.  It supports the older PIC24F and PIC24FJ parts.

[KL27x]

Has anyone tried one of these? Is this a case of genuine evolution against the Microchip original or just a better copy of it?

I haven't tried it yet. But if it does the things it says, it is not just a better copy. All those things except for 3 ARE problems on a genuine PK3.

down to 2.7V

PK2 software suggest it goes down to 2.5V, anyway.

It works for modern 1.8V (8 bit, anyway) devices, but if the circuit can't tolerate over 2.5V/2.7V, you obviously can't power from the PICKIT2.

PK3 has less tolerance for capacitance or impedance on programming pins. It has buggy offline programming. It has weak power output. Basically, PK2 is a better production programmer. Of course neither one is recommended for that (by Microchip).

[Ian.M]

The PICkit 3 uses 74LVC1T45 level translating buffers, which have a minimum operating voltage of 1.65V.  Any limitations on the minimum voltage are purely down to the minimum specified Vdd for programming for the part in question and the software.   The PICkit 2 however doesn't have level translating buffers - instead it uses a series resistance and a clamp.  This is OK for output, but causes problems reading or verifying at low voltages when the logic '1' level from the target PIC isn't enough to reach the minimum logic '1' threshold of the PIC18F2550 Port A pins which is 2.0V.  Therefore the software limits the minimum voltage to 2.5V.   

The PICkit 3 has better hardware (apart from the crappy lightpipes and bad choice of LEDs for a translucent case) but is *STILL* let down by crappy software even after over 7 years of development.

[Bruce Abbott]

causes problems reading or verifying at low voltages when the logic '1' level from the target PIC isn't enough to reach the minimum logic '1' threshold of the PIC18F2550 Port A pins which is 2.0V.  Therefore the software limits the minimum voltage to 2.5V.

So if you don't intend to program chips at less than 2.5V it's fine? Doesn't seem like much of a problem.

OTOH, if you must have a programmer that is guaranteed to program the very latest PICs then I guess you need a PICKit3.

Build Your Own PICKit 2 Clone
Flash programming utility for Microchip PIC32 microcontrollers

[KL27x]

Ahh, clears things up. I guess you can't ICSP a device running at 1.8V with PK2, then. I've never had occasion to miss that capability.

Basically, PK2 is more limited in the software, features, and device list. But it executes better or more reliably at what it covers in most aspects, with at least this one exception. And PK2 is not cross platform. Windows, only. I wouldn't throw away the PK2 after buying a PK3. It's strange to me that they ran the "trade in" program. The PK2 is a better tool for certain things.

[NorthGuy]

Ahh, clears things up. I guess you can't ICSP a device running at 1.8V with PK2, then. I've never had occasion to miss that capability.

Usually, you cannot program at 1.8V anyway. Bulk erase on most PICs require higher voltage. You can program (at least partially) without bulk erase, but I don't think PK3 can do this.

PK2 had better concept, PK3 is better electrically. You cannot program much with PK2 though, mostly older obsolete parts.

[KL27x]

mostly older obsolete parts.

PK2 had better concept

Did you mix this up? Perhaps execution is the word. Or are you suggesting the PK3 concept was too overly ambitious/complicated from the start? ...  Cuz the PK3 concept seems to be to do everything the PK2 does, and more. For a lot of people this seems to be the case. It seems to be dependent on what system they're running and what chip family (along with perhaps what buggy features they don't use ).

[NorthGuy]

Did you mix this up? Perhaps execution is the word. Or are you suggesting the PK3 concept was too overly ambitious/complicated from the start? ...  Cuz the PK3 concept seems to be to do everything the PK2 does, and more. For a lot of people this seems to be the case. It seems to be dependent on what system they're running and what chip family (along with perhaps what buggy features they don't use ).

Concept is a general idea. I guess it was changed in PK3 to allow for On-The-Go programming. Instead of scripting which was used in PK2, the new concept places the programming logic within PK3. This makes it less reliable and considerably slower. PK3 certainly has its share of over-complication.

[VEGETA]

Well, since we are talking PICKit 3... do you think Microchip will make a new version? something that could program AVRs too?

[stj]

Well, since we are talking PICKit 3... do you think Microchip will make a new version? something that could program AVRs too?

pickit2 can program AVR's - use avrdude software.

pickit3 could with a firmware update - but i think microchip is trying to keep it's pic & avr lines seperate.

[nForce]

How do you program AVR now? Link?

[Ian.M]

I suspect the PICkit 2 emulation firmware loaded by the PICkit 3 Programming App and Scripting Tool v3.10 is close enough for AVRDUDE to be able to use it. At most, it may need a small patch so AVRDUDE recognises it as a PICkit 2.

[stj]

How do you program AVR now? Link?

page 20
http://download.savannah.gnu.org/releases/avrdude/avrdude-doc-6.3.pdf

[Bruce Abbott]

You cannot program much with PK2 though, mostly older obsolete parts.

Because any PIC introduced more than 18 months ago is obsolete. 

PICKit2 Device file 1.63.148  - supported devices

PICkit 2 Device Data File Editor

The program is generally only useful for adding new parts not currently supported by the devicefile bundled with the PICKit 2. The process, after opening the devicefile, is simply to choose an existing PIC from the list of devices, right click on it and select Duplicate Item. There will now be a copy of the part you selected. Change the properties of the new part, including the part name, to appropriate values for the new part. Then save the file and you're done.

[NorthGuy]

PICkit 2 Device Data File Editor

The program is generally only useful for adding new parts not currently supported by the devicefile bundled with the PICKit 2. The process, after opening the devicefile, is simply to choose an existing PIC from the list of devices, right click on it and select Duplicate Item. There will now be a copy of the part you selected. Change the properties of the new part, including the part name, to appropriate values for the new part. Then save the file and you're done.

Except that many new parts use different programming algorithms which are not known to PK2. There's no similar "existing devices" which you could choose.

[daflory]

Pickit 3's are weird. I remember MPLABX wouldn't recognize mine at first and I thought it was DOA. It only came to life once I flashed it using MPLAB version 8.92.

Also because those without serial number are probably not going to work anymore. I have a clone, i can use it only on older versions on a windows machine. On a mac it's almost impossible to make it go
I also have a genuine so screw it.

The only real issue with the pickit 3, in my opinion, is the target power supply. It's nowhere as good as with the pickit 2. Granted, you can go much lower in voltage but you can't supply 5 volts on anything that isn't mid-range, you will get an error that the read target voltage doesn't correspond to the set voltage so i have to go down to a freaking 2.8V to power the chip i have to program without getting errors.

It's not the usb voltage. it's not the target current consumption. It's in the pickit 3. Besides that, i don't care for programming eeprom, or the logic analyzer, i care about a more powerful debugger and a much higher programming speed.

Have you tried using a USB 3.0 or high current USB port? I haven't had trouble (yet) with powering 5V circuits with the pickit 3, but I was using my Thinkpad's high-current/charging port.

[nForce]

How do you program AVR now? Link?

page 20
http://download.savannah.gnu.org/releases/avrdude/avrdude-doc-6.3.pdf

What about programming AVR with this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/USBASP-USBISP-AVR-Programmer-Adapter-10-Pin-Cable-USB-ATMEGA8-ATMEGA128-Arduino-/310506909410?hash=item484ba76ee2:g:ZWQAAOSw-KFXehMl

It's cheaper then pickit.

[stj]

that's what i use,
but that wasnt what i was asked was it, i was asked how to program an avr with a pk2.

[VEGETA]

How do you program AVR now? Link?

page 20
http://download.savannah.gnu.org/releases/avrdude/avrdude-doc-6.3.pdf

What about programming AVR with this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/USBASP-USBISP-AVR-Programmer-Adapter-10-Pin-Cable-USB-ATMEGA8-ATMEGA128-Arduino-/310506909410?hash=item484ba76ee2:g:ZWQAAOSw-KFXehMl

It's cheaper then pickit.

This device is good and I bought one to copy some firmware. Do you use it on official avr tools?

[stj]

i dont use "official avr tools", they only run on the devil's operating system - and i only use Linux. 

i use it with AVRdude - that is by coincidence the best avr programming soft anyway!

[nForce]

AVRdude is just a programer, what do you use for debugging and coding?

[stj]

gcc and a text editor.
i do it oldschool!

[nForce]

But with gcc, you can't realtime debug program on a chip.

[stj]

i have never needed to, my only errors have always thrown a compiler error

[Bruce Abbott]

Except that many new parts use different programming algorithms which are not known to PK2.

Can you give some examples? I need to know which new parts to avoid!

[daflory]

Except that many new parts use different programming algorithms which are not known to PK2.

Can you give some examples? I need to know which new parts to avoid!

If you have MPLABX installed, you can set up a program for whatever PIC and when you get to debugging options it will show a red bullet by any debugger that won't work. This will often include the Pickit2 unless the microcontroller is a fairly old classic. If the bullet mark is yellow then it should work but isn't guaranteed, and green means tested/working.

[NorthGuy]

Except that many new parts use different programming algorithms which are not known to PK2.

Can you give some examples? I need to know which new parts to avoid!

From 8-bit ones:

PIC16F153xx
PIC16F188xx
PIC16F191xx
PIC18FxxK4x

These are good parts, especially PIC18FxxK42 is very promising. You may consider getting PK3 instead of avoiding them.

[stj]

the chinese clones are so cheap you could just get both - and a USBasp - then you have the full set 

[nForce]

I am looking now for these cheap AVRASP programmers.

What is the difference between these two:

https://www.banggood.com/3_3V-5V-USBASP-USBISP-AVR-Programmer-Downloader-ATMEGA8-ATMEGA128-With-Download-Cable-p-1179967.html?rmmds=search&cur_warehouse=CN

And the cheaper one:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/USBASP-USBISP-AVR-Programmer-Adapter-10-Pin-Cable-USB-ATMEGA8-ATMEGA128-Arduino/310506909410?epid=1168759813&hash=item484ba76ee2:g:yJQAAOSwrqlZhZ4S

1) So the first one supports 3.3V and 5V, the second one does not? Which voltage levels are using Atmel chips?
2) So both are for programming ATMEGA8 and ATMEGA128, what about others? What does it even mean 8 and 128?
3) Which microcontroller is using Arduino uno? The old ones and newer?

Thanks for answering my questions. 

[stj]

1: atmel chips run at 5v, unless they end in "L" and then you can run them lower - but the maximum clock speed is reduced.

2: read the datasheets,

3: arduino-uno uses ATMEGA328 afaik.

[westfw]

atmel chips run at 5v, unless they end in "L" and then you can run them lower

Older Atmel chips had separate versions ("L" or "V") for low voltage operation.   Newer Atmel chips (anything with "PicoPower"(?), which includes the ATmega328p used in most Arduinos) run from 1.8 to 5.5V using the same chip.   You still have the max clock decrease as voltage goes down.

[nForce]

Ok, thanks. But no one answered what is the difference between those two products, one from banggood and other from ebay.

[stj]

nothing - look at the pictures.

[bd139]

Random replies:

1. What's the difference? None - they're all pretty much the same.
2. What does 8/128 mean? They are difference devices. Look at the data sheets.
3. Which uC does the Arduino use? Various depending on where you buy them from.

Best approach I have found for AVR on a budget is:

1. Buy a cheap USBasp, doesn't matter where from. Stick some tape over the LED on it or it'll burn your eyes out.
2. Buy a cheap Arduino Pro mini board. 5v model. These have an ATMEGA328P which is quite a hefty device. It has the uC, crystal and reset circuit canned on it already.
3. Wire it up according to the various instructions on the Internet. I include a picture of my dev rig for these below for the sake of inspiration. Instructions I used are here: https://www.bitsbox.co.uk/index.php?main_page=page&id=24&pos=v&chapter=20#
4. If you're on windows, follow these instructions to get the right driver: https://rlogiacco.wordpress.com/2016/09/01/usbasp-windows-10/
5. You can write your code in Arduino IDE (yuck) or AVR-GCC something else to program it. I am using the latter using Windows Subsystem for Linux on windows and then programming it with eXtreme Burner.
6. If you use the Arduino UI: (1) set target device to ATMEGA328P 16MHz 5V (2) set target programmer to USPasp (3) load the blink sketch example (4) use Sketch -> Upload using programmer (normal upload wont work with USBasp as that requires an arduino bootloader).



This is an in development RF power meter.

If you want to use a PIC, use PICkit3 with an in circuit target. That plus MPLAB X is a much better environment if you ask me if you want to work in assembly. If you want C, then the AVR is better. I tend to use PICs (12/16 series) for noddy tasks like replacing bits of logic and AVRs for computational and more complex tasks mainly because it's pretty easy to look inside the arduino library source code and nick bits of code for controlling LCDs etc.