PCB engraved, what do you think about ?

[legacy]

I am watching this PCB engraver, that's a common CNC design reduced in working size and simplified in order to get it cheap!






Characteristic

Sable-2015 CNC kits is manufactured and assembled in Taiwan, they have high quality, as long as a few cables and electronic control, the spindle connected with the PC, and then the PC install operating program (EMC2 or MACH3) that is complete engraving machine, three axes disposed high speed and high torque stepper motors,feed rate is up to 1000mm/min. machine structure is manufactured based on aluminum alloy and anodized. beautiful and antirust. linear bearings are used in three-axis slide, and anti-backlash nuts, running smooth and precise.

Specifications

Operating Travel: X-axis 200mm, Y-axis 150mm, Z-axis 60mm.
Feed rate: 800mm/min(rated), 1000mm/min(max.).
Z-axis workpiece height: 60mm (include clip fixture).
Screw and nut: Metric thread M10, pitch=1.5mm, anti-backlash nut.
Repeat positioning accuracy: less than 0.1mm.
Spindle collet: ER11.
Spindle speed: two stage, high speed is 10000rpm, low speed is 4300rpm
Dimensions: 370mm(W), 358mm(H), 365mm(L).

working flow





it should be priced
- 550 euro for the machine, assembled with (1) included
- 150 euro for the shipping




(1) included list
1 X Sable-2015 CNC (frame and stepper motors, assembled)
1 X 3-axis stepper motor driver
1 X Switch power supply for driver
3 X stepping motor connecting cable
1 X spindle set
1 X Switch power supply for spindle
1 X ER11 collet (3.175 mm)
1 X Spare belts
1 X Installation and setup instructions

[andtfoot]

As a concept it seems alright. The solid machine bed probably gives a good start to keeping the board flat, although you would need to bolt MDF or similar to the top anyway for drilling.

I'm not a fan of the off-centre spindle motor mounting (although it's probably fine).
The other thing is the lead screws. Standard thread is AFAIK pretty crap for this. I think it is prone to binding, wears out quickly, and usually has a fair amount of slop. ACME threads can fix this a little bit, but it's probably best to go to ballscrews if possible.

The price doesn't seem much cheaper than the other CNC machines around. For example, a 300x200 machine with ballscrews for €518 + shipping: http://www.carving-cnc.com/3020series/cnc-3020z-d52-new-version-router-engraver-drilling-and-milling-machine.html

[Kappes Buur]

Take a look at Kroko's setup.

[free_electron]

two questions :

1) does it come with full licensed versions of all that software ? not pirated, not cracked but official and unlimited ?
i see way too many of these machines that come with pirated versions of that control software. i dont; want to buy a 700$ machine and then have to find out i need to fork over another 500$ in software to get it legit...

2) does it connect thru USB ?  no computer has a parallel port anymore. parallel ports are gone, adieu , sayonara, goodbye. if it does not work over a USB link : fail. any 3d printer out there can already do it. why not these machines ?

[Christopher]

LPKF ProtoMat machines are really nice, we have one at work. It gives great 8/8 results every time with careful setup.

The only problem is changing the bits! And vias. Maybe I'm spoiled.

[george graves]

Fiberglass dust is bad for you.

[free_electron]

LPKF ProtoMat machines

we need two more icons... : Vomit icon and explosive diarrhea...

with careful setup

you need to handle it with gloves, ray to all the gods and godesses , hope the wind is good , it's the right time of day, season and whatever.
if a butterfly flaps it's wings on the other side of the globe the board will fail

i have had a protomat 95S , a lamination press and the multicontac plating system. Never succeeded in making 1 working multilayer.

[orion242]

>explosive diarrhea...

lol too funny!!

I'm looking for a small CNC for PCB milling also.  I would be interested in hearing from anyone with a working setup, or explosive horror stories of machines to avoid.

[PlainName]

I have and use a Sable for PCB milling. In my case I use a Proxxon IB/E as the spindle (has the spindle bearings mounted in metal) and it's good enough to manage 0.5mm pitch flatpacks and the like.

I have a 1/2" perspex slab bolted to the work surface which I faced so it is flat and square. I stick the PCBs down with carpet tape (it is amazingly consistent in thickness, grips well, and you can get it off afterwards). That allows me to do the whole job in one go: drill the holes, mill the isolation, mill the board outline. Eventually the surface of the perspex gets pockmarked with tiny holes, so I just skim half a mm or so off the get rid of them when the tape doesn't stick any more.

Dust control is via a car vacuum cleaner and 12V battery charger supply, linked to the spindle switch. Or it was - currently I am trying oil spread thinly over the entire PCB to lubricate the cutter, and that catches all the swarf. But the very fine powder dries out the oil and begins to look like a grinding paste, so I'm not sure it's a good thing to do...

[orion242]

What do you use to get from gerbers to g-code?

[PlainName]

Currently I used CopperCAM to generate the g-code paths, and Mach3 to do the actual milling. I think Eagle will generate g-code if asked nicely, but I've never used it so can't be definitive.

I also use CutView for any milling job (PCB or 'real' milling) before letting letting Mach3 loose just to ensure I'm not about to make an expensive mistake

[legacy]

thank you guys for these informations 

[denizcan]

nice but what's the idea behind PCB milling? hobby? Positiv20 gives very sharp results on double side PCB's. also production quality PCB prototyping is super cheap and fast nowadays..

[PlainName]

what's the idea behind PCB milling?

Can't speak for anyone else, but for me it is fast and clean. If I etch then I have to get the tank of ferric out of the garage, heat it up in the kitchen, print the film, etc. Always a possibility of spillage and consequent explaining to the missus, and while that's going on no-one can make coffee or anything.

With the mill there is no printing, exposing, or any of that stuff. All the holes are exactly aligned with the pads. An important factor is that the holes can be drilled before the pads are produced, so there is less risk of the drill pulling off thing pads.

Chinese PCB houses are indeed cheap and quick, but even they can't beat a mill for really quick - I have had an idea at 1am on a Sunday morning and got a working PCB before 2am. For the price of the cheapest  copper clad board - no photo resist to go off or get scratched or add to the cost.

I wouldn't sell the boards - they are for quick prototyping of ideas and one-off 'homers' that are suitable for the technology. Not all projects fit that scenario, but enough do to make the mill useful. Since I got the mill I've never etched a board - if it isn't suitable for milling it goes off to Itead and I wait 2-3 weeks for it to come back.

Your Mileage May Vary. But we don't have to do either/or, you know. You could use a mill to drill the holes accurately and then cut out the PCB. Do that before exposing and it should be reasonably easy to line up the artwork with the holes, then expose and etch as normal. Voila - you no longer spend an hour straining your eyesight to drill the holes off-centre, and no need to make an allowance in the pad diameter. Slots easily, er, slotted. What more could you ask for?

[orion242]

Hobby mainly, but I would think some of the reasons remain the same...

I don't want to wait for a board only to find a mistake.  If I can mill my own in a few hours, I'm days or weeks ahead of sending it out.  I only have the weekends to piss around with hobbies, and bread boards are a real PITA for large circuits.  Sticking circuits together on perf board is marginally better than breadboard...  If I mill them, I'll be testing rev 4 by before I can outsource rev 1.

Besides that I can use it engrave things, cut custom openings in project boxes, etc.  It will probably lead into another project...building a CNC that can handle 4'x8' sheets...

[orion242]

Ditto on etching.

Been there done that.  What a facking mess!!!

[G0HZU]

Yes, milling boards is the way to go

I bought a (used) T-Tech 7000S machine about 10 years ago for PCB design and it has been brilliant for making PCBs and also laminated tools and front panels etc etc. Mine is the larger machine and can mill a 19" x 13" PCB size.

I design a lot of RF stuff up at many GHz using exotic PCB materials so a milling machine is essential for this kind of thing. I bought a second T-Tech 7000S for milling tougher tasks like laminated toolmaking because I want to keep the wear down on the original machine. These old T-Tech machines can be bought very cheaply nowadays

I use the LPKF CAM software to generate the isolation/rubout files and I use Isopro.exe to control the milling machine once the exported isolation files from the LPKF SW are imported. This is because the LPKF SW is far better than isopro when it comes to generating the isolation files.

[G0HZU]

I'm looking for a small CNC for PCB milling also.  I would be interested in hearing from anyone with a working setup, or explosive horror stories of machines to avoid.

One thing to be wary of with the old T-Tech machines like mine is that the working parts are very exposed and the motors produce a lot of torque and the moving top section is impossible (for me) to halt if I try to stop it physically. So if you caught a finger in the works it will probably chew it off without the machine even slowing down or groaning.

I think the LPKF machines are a lot safer in this respect. We have one of these at my place of work. Don't expect perfect reliability from T-Tech or LPKF if you use it a lot. We have had both makes at work and both have required costly repair work more than once. However, our LPKF proto 60 machine has been a lot more reliable than the old T-Tech machines.

The endmill and pointed and contour router tools aren't cheap and they don't last very long. I've been lucky in that I get to salvage the ones from the works LPKF machine once they pass a certain usage time so I have literally bagfuls of part worn tools to keep me going. But some of these tools are £16 each and they only do a few PCBs before they get flagged as worn out.

[denizcan]

what's the idea behind PCB milling?

Can't speak for anyone else, but for me it is fast and clean. If I etch then I have to get the tank of ferric out of the garage, heat it up in the kitchen, print the film, etc. Always a possibility of spillage and consequent explaining to the missus, and while that's going on no-one can make coffee or anything.

With the mill there is no printing, exposing, or any of that stuff. All the holes are exactly aligned with the pads. An important factor is that the holes can be drilled before the pads are produced, so there is less risk of the drill pulling off thing pads.

Chinese PCB houses are indeed cheap and quick, but even they can't beat a mill for really quick - I have had an idea at 1am on a Sunday morning and got a working PCB before 2am. For the price of the cheapest  copper clad board - no photo resist to go off or get scratched or add to the cost.

I wouldn't sell the boards - they are for quick prototyping of ideas and one-off 'homers' that are suitable for the technology. Not all projects fit that scenario, but enough do to make the mill useful. Since I got the mill I've never etched a board - if it isn't suitable for milling it goes off to Itead and I wait 2-3 weeks for it to come back.

Your Mileage May Vary. But we don't have to do either/or, you know. You could use a mill to drill the holes accurately and then cut out the PCB. Do that before exposing and it should be reasonably easy to line up the artwork with the holes, then expose and etch as normal. Voila - you no longer spend an hour straining your eyesight to drill the holes off-centre, and no need to make an allowance in the pad diameter. Slots easily, er, slotted. What more could you ask for?

I see.. Is it precise enough for LQFP packages?

[PlainName]

Is it precise enough for LQFP packages?

I reckon so. The photo is one I prepared earlier (and earlier enough that I'm not sure what the chip is - I think it's an AVR).

[G0HZU]

I see.. Is it precise enough for LQFP packages?

With care you can mill very fine detail.

eg I have some flexi PCB material here that is 0.004" thick including the outer copper layers. It looks and feels like copper coloured paper
On my T-tech machine I can set the cut depth very finely and I've milled custom flexi cables to repair faulty cables using this material.

[legacy]

On my T-tech machine

exactly which machine is it ? is there in any catalog ? i'd like to buy one of these

[PlainName]

I've milled custom flexi cables to repair faulty cables using this material.

Wow. Colour me seriously impressed 

[george graves]

Is it precise enough for LQFP packages?

I reckon so. The photo is one I prepared earlier (and earlier enough that I'm not sure what the chip is - I think it's an AVR).

I'm impressed with the quality.

But I'm in the toner etch camp. I can turn out a board in about 20 mins assuming it's SMD.  TH takes about 2 seconds per hole, plus tool changes.

[PlainName]

It takes me 20 mins just to get the coffee on

Last time I etched it took longer than that - printing the film, getting the kit out, exposing, developing, heating, etching, cleaning, etc. But I am happy to believe it really does take you 20 mins or less. For me, time is not of the essence so much as not having a mess (or potential mess) to deal with. And only one device to get going (vs lightbox, developer tray, etchant tank, cleaning tank/tap).

But, as I said before, horses for courses and it is very much a personal choice. Sometimes I am tempted to use both (mill for drilling/routing and etch for fine tracks), but the scale of it overwhelms me