Author Topic: Pic mcu alternatives???  (Read 41181 times)

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Offline ebclr

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2017, 04:31:56 pm »
OK, keep on your 8051 and gimp cave, and let the people that think out of the box do the job
 

Offline technix

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2017, 04:40:07 pm »
OK, keep on your 8051 and gimp cave, and let the people that think out of the box do the job
Before you start thinking out of the box check if your ass is being watched and your passwords are being sniffed by Microsoft and/or the Big Brother.



This is from an ex-employee of Microsoft, that was a senior developer in Windows team from Windows XP to Windows 8.1.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 04:46:17 pm by technix »
 

Offline NorthGuy

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2017, 04:46:26 pm »
Also, check this 2nd video and tell me do you know any other processor that you can make small analog circuits on the fly?

PIC16F1764

Not to mention that it would me much easier to use off-the-shelf op amp - nothing needs to be done, no programming required. And, most importantly, you can select the op amp with characteristics you really needs. Chances that a built-in op amp with arbitrary characteristics is exactly what you need are slim to none.
 

Offline technix

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2017, 04:49:17 pm »
OK, keep on your 8051 and gimp cave, and let the people that think out of the box do the job
Oh and speaking of 8051, I am not using it as my main microcontroller choice for the projects. I have a series of blog posts exploring 8051 and that's it. I have way more ARM and AVR based projects than 8051:

https://github.com/ArduinoMax (Arduino stuff - mostly AVR)
https://github.com/SushiBits (My own designs - almost exclusively ARM)
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 05:00:45 pm by technix »
 

Offline technix

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2017, 05:06:01 pm »
Not to mention that it would me much easier to use off-the-shelf op amp - nothing needs to be done, no programming required. And, most importantly, you can select the op amp with characteristics you really needs. Chances that a built-in op amp with arbitrary characteristics is exactly what you need are slim to none.
Also since op amps almost always comes in the same pinout, socketed op amps are godsend. I used to have a small headphone amp with two socketed op amps. I started off using a pair of LM358s but as my demand of audio quality increases the op amps are swapped out for better ones - TL072, then NJM4559, then OPA2134. Should I be able to find it I may even try flirt with TLC2272 on this.

Try upgrade an op amp in PSoC without respinning the entire board or change a significant portion of the code.
 

Offline ebclr

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2017, 05:16:35 pm »
It's not only opamps, it's a full set of analog components, of course, you can't argue against because you never tried, and already makes clear that will never do that, because the tools isn't on your OS preference, let follow your course and pray for your eventual competitors don't take advantage of this wonderful piece of silicon (Psoc) against something you are planning to compete using Linux friendly tools
 

Offline technix

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2017, 11:56:30 pm »
It's not only opamps, it's a full set of analog components, of course, you can't argue against because you never tried, and already makes clear that will never do that, because the tools isn't on your OS preference, let follow your course and pray for your eventual competitors don't take advantage of this wonderful piece of silicon (Psoc) against something you are planning to compete using Linux friendly tools

They won’t compete.

At least in China nobody bothers using PSoC at all. It is way too expensive to be competitive in the market.

You can check Aliexpress or Taobao for MCU dev kits. You would be hard pressed to find something with PSoC on it. OTOH kits based on STM32, STC 8051, Microchip PIC16 and AVR just floods the market. Also check the bookstores and college curriculums, there is virtually no book or course that even touches upon the advanced features of PSoC.

The STM32 line is so popular we are now even seeing clones from China in the form of GD32 line.
 

Offline NorthGuy

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2017, 12:14:34 am »
You cannot judge by the price of the development kits. Manufacturers sell them below cost to attract buyers to their chips. Look at the prices of the chips themselves instead.
 

Offline technix

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2017, 12:14:57 am »
It's not only opamps, it's a full set of analog components, of course, you can't argue against because you never tried, and already makes clear that will never do that, because the tools isn't on your OS preference, let follow your course and pray for your eventual competitors don't take advantage of this wonderful piece of silicon (Psoc) against something you are planning to compete using Linux friendly tools

They won’t compete.

At least in China nobody bothers using PSoC at all. It is way too expensive to be competitive in the market.

You can check Aliexpress or Taobao for MCU dev kits. You would be hard pressed to find something with PSoC on it. OTOH kits based on STM32, STC 8051, Microchip PIC16 and AVR just floods the market. Also check the bookstores and college curriculums, there is virtually no book or course that even touches upon the advanced features of PSoC.

The STM32 line is so popular we are now even seeing clones from China in the form of GD32 line.

Psoc kit 059 sells at $10 with no quantity limit. You can buy 1000 pcs if you want to.

The kit contains 2 $20 chips (target and debugger) and passives.

The debugger can also be used as usb to uart and i2c bridge.
Point me to someone actually sells this at $10 in China. It is nigh difficult to find, at least for me, and costs way more than $10.

And how much does the STM32 kits cost again? $15 for STM32F407ZGT6 + 1MiB external SRAM + 16MiB external Flash.
 

Offline technix

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2017, 12:26:18 am »
You cannot judge by the price of the development kits. Manufacturers sell them below cost to attract buyers to their chips. Look at the prices of the chips themselves instead.
I understands this for first-party kits. But third-party kits are entirely another story.

Arduino *was* a third party kit until they attracted attention from Atmel. Since then they gained access to cheap chips and become a first-party kit.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 12:29:46 am by technix »
 

Offline technix

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2017, 12:49:36 am »
It's not only opamps, it's a full set of analog components, of course, you can't argue against because you never tried, and already makes clear that will never do that, because the tools isn't on your OS preference, let follow your course and pray for your eventual competitors don't take advantage of this wonderful piece of silicon (Psoc) against something you are planning to compete using Linux friendly tools

They won’t compete.

At least in China nobody bothers using PSoC at all. It is way too expensive to be competitive in the market.

You can check Aliexpress or Taobao for MCU dev kits. You would be hard pressed to find something with PSoC on it. OTOH kits based on STM32, STC 8051, Microchip PIC16 and AVR just floods the market. Also check the bookstores and college curriculums, there is virtually no book or course that even touches upon the advanced features of PSoC.

The STM32 line is so popular we are now even seeing clones from China in the form of GD32 line.

Psoc kit 059 sells at $10 with no quantity limit. You can buy 1000 pcs if you want to.

The kit contains 2 $20 chips (target and debugger) and passives.

The debugger can also be used as usb to uart and i2c bridge.
Point me to someone actually sells this at $10 in China. It is nigh difficult to find, at least for me, and costs way more than $10.

And how much does the STM32 kits cost again? $15 for STM32F407ZGT6 + 1MiB external SRAM + 16MiB external Flash.

Cy8ckit-059, as low as RMB 80 from Taobao.
Mouser, e14 and Digikey all ship to China, some with minimum order amount.
Brokers like rightIC also do aggregated shipping to China from western distributors with very low MOQ and shipping cost.

If you prefer to buy from a trusted source, check out here: http://www.mouser.cn/ProductDetail/Cypress-Semiconductor/CY8CKIT-059/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuo%252bmZx5g6tFKhundMNZurhvz2tw2jO%2fk8%3d

Buy two to get free shipping.
To be honest I just bought one for the sake of trying out what you claim to be the “most flexible MCU ever” (I still doubt it.)

CNY 80 is still a stiff price for an entry level dev kit. The third party STM32 kit I quoted above is one of the advanced product lines out there.
 

Elf

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2017, 02:51:33 am »
OK, keep on your 8051 and gimp cave, and let the people that think out of the box do the job
Oh and speaking of 8051, I am not using it as my main microcontroller choice for the projects. I have a series of blog posts exploring 8051 and that's it. I have way more ARM and AVR based projects than 8051: [...]
I think 8051 chips are great in many applications. Cheap, low power, available with good peripherals, and mature dev tools. Why should anyone need to feel bad for learning and using 8051s? Unlike some people, it doesn't sound like you're going around saying that the 8051 is the solution to every problem.

This is what showed up in my mailbox the other day:


From what little playing around with it I've done, EFM8 looks like it will add to the other chips I like: RL78, MSP430, STM32, STM8, AVR, XMOS, Z8, and just for fun, WDC 65xx. I am trying to make a conscious effort to rotate through those for each new design. I enjoy trying new things and constant learning. I think the PSoC looks great too. I'd give it a try for something with mixed signals or that needed a bit of extra programmable logic. I appreciate people like blueskull talking about the real world applications they use it for, and why, in a way that doesn't feel heavy handed. It does seem expensive. That's not always important.

But honestly the whole PSoC fanboy thing is such a turnoff:
  • Almost every thread where someone asks what uC to use there's basically a full spread Cypress advertisement within the first few pages
  • "Do you breathe air? If so, the PSoC is the right microcontroller for you. But if you're into kicking puppies, it may not be the best choice."
  • Why does PSoC being great always mean that they have to take a dump on someone else's choice of microcontroller? Just because their favorite product is good doesn't mean that everything else is bad. It also doesn't mean that it's the only obvious choice.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 03:00:08 am by Elf »
 

Offline technix

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2017, 03:58:51 am »
It's not only opamps, it's a full set of analog components, of course, you can't argue against because you never tried, and already makes clear that will never do that, because the tools isn't on your OS preference, let follow your course and pray for your eventual competitors don't take advantage of this wonderful piece of silicon (Psoc) against something you are planning to compete using Linux friendly tools

They won’t compete.

At least in China nobody bothers using PSoC at all. It is way too expensive to be competitive in the market.

You can check Aliexpress or Taobao for MCU dev kits. You would be hard pressed to find something with PSoC on it. OTOH kits based on STM32, STC 8051, Microchip PIC16 and AVR just floods the market. Also check the bookstores and college curriculums, there is virtually no book or course that even touches upon the advanced features of PSoC.

The STM32 line is so popular we are now even seeing clones from China in the form of GD32 line.

Psoc kit 059 sells at $10 with no quantity limit. You can buy 1000 pcs if you want to.

The kit contains 2 $20 chips (target and debugger) and passives.

The debugger can also be used as usb to uart and i2c bridge.
Point me to someone actually sells this at $10 in China. It is nigh difficult to find, at least for me, and costs way more than $10.

And how much does the STM32 kits cost again? $15 for STM32F407ZGT6 + 1MiB external SRAM + 16MiB external Flash.

Cy8ckit-059, as low as RMB 80 from Taobao.
Mouser, e14 and Digikey all ship to China, some with minimum order amount.
Brokers like rightIC also do aggregated shipping to China from western distributors with very low MOQ and shipping cost.

If you prefer to buy from a trusted source, check out here: http://www.mouser.cn/ProductDetail/Cypress-Semiconductor/CY8CKIT-059/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuo%252bmZx5g6tFKhundMNZurhvz2tw2jO%2fk8%3d

Buy two to get free shipping.
For $20 I can get the Allwinner V3s stack up, sample the analog signals directly and crunch through the entire PSoC analog chain using software code. Oh that is a Cortex-A7 core with full FPU and SIMD instructions.
 

Offline rcbuck

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2017, 04:04:15 am »
I would like to see verified numbers of how many actual products PSOC parts are used in. My guess (I could be wrong) is that their cost keeps their market share of actual products very low compared to other ARM vendors products. If they are doing that great, why has their stock not gone up in 5 years?
   
5 year ago price                   Today's closing price

Microchip           $33.20                80.35
STMicroelectronics  $5.56                 15.11
Cypress Semi        $13.41                13.35
 

Offline technix

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2017, 05:19:33 am »
For $20 I can get the Allwinner V3s stack up, sample the analog signals directly and crunch through the entire PSoC analog chain using software code. Oh that is a Cortex-A7 core with full FPU and SIMD instructions.

PSoC can sample analog at 20-bit without audio filtering shit (not 24-bit audio ADC), it's a general purpose precision 20-bit sigma delta ADC.
PSoC also has 2 SAR ADCs that support arbitrary channel sequencing.
PSoC has a few <50ns comparator that gives you 20MHz bit stream bandwidth.
PSoC has IDACs and VDACs, with a fairly accurate and stable voltage reference.
PSoC has comparators and OPAMPs with very low offset (and ADCs with factory calibrated for offset) that can be used on mV signals.
PSoC has switching capacitor analog handling blocks, which can be used for programmable analog filters, comparators and a lot of other purposes.
PSoC has the best cap sense in industry, comparable with TI CapTIVate solution.
PSoC may come with all those features, but what if I don't need some features why would I still pay for it? Allwinner V3s is cheap enough for me to afford shopping around for even better external components to perform the same if not better. Same goes for STM32 or AVR or STC 8051. Try beat ADI or LT or TI or Maxim on analog. And I don't have to pay for features I don't use (unpopulated footprint at worst, removed from the board usually. As long as routing works and the board is not getting bigger adding a footprint to a PCB is free.)
PSoC is available in extended temperature range and comes with MISRA C certified libraries.
Allwinner V3s is automotive class silicon by default in the first place. Go ahead and read their marketing slides.
And most important, PSoC consumes milliamps, and can boot up in milliseconds.
Allwinner V3s also consumes milliamps, and can boot up in milliseconds, if the program is written for bare metal operation, just like STM32 or AVR or STC 8051, oh or like PSoC.
 

Offline technix

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2017, 05:32:12 am »
It's not only opamps, it's a full set of analog components, of course, you can't argue against because you never tried, and already makes clear that will never do that, because the tools isn't on your OS preference, let follow your course and pray for your eventual competitors don't take advantage of this wonderful piece of silicon (Psoc) against something you are planning to compete using Linux friendly tools
There are way too many scenario PSoC won't work even on an electrical point of view. Take one of my constant current load design for an example: in order to use the cheaper 10V gate power MOSFETs I used a boost converter to provide the error amplifier 15V supply voltage. Try not to fry an PSoC op amp with 15V supply. If the PSoC have to be shoehorned I have to use the much more expensive logic level power MOSFETs (just check the price difference of IRF540N and IRL540N,) use a floating ground (a whole other can of worms by itself) and still need an external op amp to invert the sample point voltage.
 

Offline technix

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2017, 05:48:49 am »
If your product profitability is heavily bounded by the cost of a single commodity MOSFET, it's likely your design is not good enough. Generally if you want to start a real innovative business (not a mom&pop shop), you need to make sure your BOM is only a very small portion of cost, expect R&D and testing/certifying as well as financing cost amortized per product to be more than BOM.
So you are suggesting a good design have to be a complex one? For at least this specific project PSoC is definitely adding complexity and points of failure. In my board I even introduced a strict point of separation of programmed and hard wired analog circuitry for the sake of safety - a locked up program does not fry the analog section, and the thermal shutdown of the power MOSFET does not depend on working code. Can PSoC do this?
BTW, IRF540 and IRF540N are of the same price on Mouser. Taobao price doesn't really have a meaning unless you can get the certificate of authenticity from supplier. Who knows the IRF540 you get is a genuine one or a Chinese die packaged into an IR packaging.
The kicker is not IRF540N/IRL540N, but the additional complexity just to accommodate the PSoC. A negative rail just for the single external op amp to flip the sense line voltage is ridiculous. Also it is much simpler to design a boost SMPS than inverting SMPS, as chips are readily available. No thanks I will stick to my cheap STM32F103C8T6 + TLC5615 + TLC2272 stack.

Also, can PSoC receive OTA code updates without interrupting the analog side of things? I can leave the analog side of things on autopilot during OTA.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 05:55:53 am by technix »
 

Offline ebclr

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2017, 06:02:47 am »
Using PSoC you will save thousands of dollars on development, it's a system on a chip, smaller PCB's, more flexible and integrated solution, ideal for the middle of complex things on the very low scale of production, you can even use the development stick as a component of products.

They are not made to compete with STM8 or STC8051 for 1 dollar Led Voltmeter

The main application is medical and military devices and measure and automation, where you want performance and system integration that only PSOC can give you, The learning curve is hard, but if you pass that learning phase you can make a full complex system in a day. The saving isn't on the chip, the saving in on engineer time, your product will be ready faster and the gain on development cost and time will pay the premium of the CPU.

Psoc can read analog channels, filter at very high rates and generates a VGA signal showing the results, and having excellent capacitive buttons and sliders while at the same time generating one analog out in a range outside your power supply limits using an internal cap switch, and generating several different clocks to be used externally based on the PLLs you can define.

Did you get it, it's unique


« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 06:05:41 am by ebclr »
 

Offline technix

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #43 on: June 21, 2017, 06:19:58 am »
BTW, IRF540 and IRF540N are of the same price on Mouser. Taobao price doesn't really have a meaning unless you can get the certificate of authenticity from supplier. Who knows the IRF540 you get is a genuine one or a Chinese die packaged into an IR packaging.
The kicker is not IRF540N/IRL540N, but the additional complexity just to accommodate the PSoC. A negative rail just for the single external op amp to flip the sense line voltage is ridiculous. Also it is much simpler to design a boost SMPS than inverting SMPS, as chips are readily available. No thanks I will stick to my cheap STM32F103C8T6 + TLC5615 + TLC2272 stack.

1. PSoC's internal analog peripherals can operate down to negative rail (gnd).
I need lower than GND. I am talking about -5V or so.
2. If it's just for signal conditioning, PSoC can be used to create a charge pump to generate negative voltage. Port 12 in PSoC 5 can handle up to 25mA per pin.
It is a sense signal. No way you can pump it.
3. The same can be used to drive a non logic FET, and you can use a BJT to do analog level translation. I prefer a common base driving a complementary emitter follower (aka. class B) for gate driving. 2 9014 NPN and 1 9015 PNP is guaranteed to be cheaper than any OPAMP.
The PSoC itself is more expensive than the whole board of components combined in the first place. So, moot point.

I'd rather not shoehorn PSoC down every project at the cost of increased complexity and/or BOM cost. That is also the point why I am keeping the 8051 stack alive, as for the extreme simple and/or the extreme cheap 8051 just works without too much complexity. For example I may implement an I2C controlled single phase synchronous buck converter using ATtiny85 + MOSFETs, but for a simple LED blinky it is certainly STC15W101 + MOSFETs
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 06:24:13 am by technix »
 

Offline technix

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2017, 06:36:38 am »
Using PSoC you will save thousands of dollars on development, it's a system on a chip, smaller PCB's, more flexible and integrated solution, ideal for the middle of complex things on the very low scale of production, you can even use the development stick as a component of products.
So I should prepare to spend the thousands of dollars saved in R&D in either repairing and servicing the devices, or paying dubious recyclers to handle the broken units?
They are not made to compete with STM8 or STC8051 for 1 dollar Led Voltmeter

The main application is medical and military devices and measure and automation, where you want performance and system integration that only PSOC can give you, The learning curve is hard, but if you pass that learning phase you can make a full complex system in a day. The saving isn't on the chip, the saving in on engineer time, your product will be ready faster and the gain on development cost and time will pay the premium of the CPU.
When I do get past the "learning phase" I will find myself cooking up designs that is easier to route, plan, debug and build using separate chips - like STM32 in the center and chips like ADC0832, TLC5615 and TLC2272 scattered around.

Also I doubt if I can hook an oscilloscope probe into the intermediary signal to debug the circuits.
Psoc can read analog channels, filter at very high rates and generates a VGA signal showing the results, and having excellent capacitive buttons and sliders while at the same time generating one analog out in a range outside your power supply limits using an internal cap switch, and generating several different clocks to be used externally based on the PLLs you can define.

Did you get it, it's unique


So does Allwinner V3s. Oh and V3s uses the much more common parallel RGB interface which can be ingested by a lot of LCD panels or bridged into things like HDMI or DisplayPort easily with a PHY chip, oh and vintage VGA too maybe using some vintage RAMDAC. And V3s can use a much higher resolution.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 02:52:51 pm by technix »
 

Offline theatrus

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2017, 06:45:40 am »
PSoC is also single source - I can swap processors or opamps as commodities, but buying a magic unicorn box is a great way to be sad at a later date.
Software by day, hardware by night; blueAcro.com
 

Offline technix

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #46 on: June 21, 2017, 07:06:42 am »
PSoC is also single source - I can swap processors or opamps as commodities, but buying a magic unicorn box is a great way to be sad at a later date.
Agreed. Socketed op amps are godsend since they all follow the same pinout. So are the 8051 based microcontrollers (with a few AVRs being almost pin compatible with the 8051s)

Having all major components separated means I can swap parts without respinning the board should one vendor ceased business. Also I will have some pins, pads or traces to poke a multimeter or oscilloscope at. Even if the original chip comes in a unicorn pinout as long as it is a simpler chip cheap 2L adapter boards can be made to retrofit another vendor's chip on one dead vendor's chips' footprints.

PSoC are good chips for experiments and one-off projects that you do not expect having to repair or intend to throw away in a few years. If you intend to keep a product alive for longer times and keep maintaining it you damn well hope either Cypress the unicorn company stays alive for that long and still produces the chip you used (at least c compatible one) or you have used standard products that is easily replaceable.
 

Offline danadak

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #47 on: June 21, 2017, 04:47:46 pm »
Quote
If you intend to keep a product alive for longer times and keep maintaining it you damn well hope either Cypress the unicorn company stays alive for that long and still produces the chip you used (at least c compatible one) or you have used standard products that is easily replaceable.

Thats one of the almost un-achievable aspects of the hi tech biz these days. One only has to look
at the history since 70s of the number of very big companies that have been absorbed or gone out
of business, Philips, National....Whole product lines spun off into oblivion. And who is trained to see
the future ?

Insofar as Cypress is concerned, look at the annual reports as a starting point. Basically they have an
industry standard core coupled with a process that can handle mixed signal. That aspect one could
comfortably state will continue to experience demand. Look at the roadmap, also the frequency of tool
updates, release of new families, parts, as a way of telling if they are viable. The Cypress MCD div shipped
almost ~$1B in 2016.


Quote
Having all major components separated means I can swap parts without respinning the board
should one vendor ceased business.

Of course there are reliability issues with that approach. Power issues. And if a competitor sees those
increased costs and your market is sizable that's an opportunity to attack that solution. Eg. because
that solution has increased procurement, assembly costs, just a  fact of life.

For sure no one in their right mind would claim PSOC came from God. It has its place, seems like in its
history of shipments it found good fit in many products.

Lastly published unit pricing is notoriously inaccurate.  Direct contact with Cypress reps and field sales
will give a much more accurate picture of costs. Especially future pricing estimates.




Regards, Dana.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 05:02:46 pm by danadak »
Love Cypress PSOC, ATTiny, Bit Slice, OpAmps, Oscilloscopes, and Analog Gurus like Pease, Miller, Widlar, Dobkin, obsessed with being an engineer
 

Offline NorthGuy

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #48 on: June 21, 2017, 04:57:09 pm »
Thats one of the almost un-achievable aspects of the hi tech biz these days. One only has to look
at the history since 70s of the number of very big companies that have been absorbed or gone out
of business, Philips, National....Whole product lines spun off into oblivion. And who is trained to see
the future ?

Microchip still supports PICs from 20 years ago, so if you used one in your design, you can still buy replacement parts.
 

Offline technix

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #49 on: June 21, 2017, 05:18:12 pm »
Quote
If you intend to keep a product alive for longer times and keep maintaining it you damn well hope either Cypress the unicorn company stays alive for that long and still produces the chip you used (at least c compatible one) or you have used standard products that is easily replaceable.

Thats one of the almost un-achievable aspects of the hi tech biz these days. One only has to look
at the history since 70s of the number of very big companies that have been absorbed or gone out
of business, Philips, National....Whole product lines spun off into oblivion. And who is trained to see
the future ?

Insofar as Cypress is concerned, look at the annual reports as a starting point. Basically they have an
industry standard core coupled with a process that can handle mixed signal. That aspect one could
comfortably state will continue to experience demand. Look at the roadmap, also the frequency of tool
updates, release of new families, parts, as a way of telling if they are viable. The Cypress MCD div shipped
almost ~$1B in 2016.
Try explain to me why NASA are still using 80C86 to this day. Speaking of which, outside of collectors, there are still a lot of Apple II's or IBM PC's surviving. But for the computers since Pentium it is hard pressed to find one that still works after 15-20 years. Back then no chip is single sourced so finding a replacement is (still) fairly easy even to this day: You got a dead Socket 7 CPU - get another one from whatever manufacturer that still have the required performance and you are good to go.
Quote
Having all major components separated means I can swap parts without respinning the board
should one vendor ceased business.

Of course there are reliability issues with that approach. Power issues. And if a competitor sees those
increased costs and your market is sizable that's an opportunity to attack that solution. Eg. because
that solution has increased procurement, assembly costs, just a  fact of life.




Regards, Dana.
If you perform a more careful analysis you will find out that PSoC have a generally higher cost if some defective units are involved. As I have stated before PSoC in general is much more expensive than other platforms. This may be offset in the manufacturing but when you put failed components, rework and warranty repair into consideration the tip of the balance goes to semi-discrete solution again: if a PSoC stack failed it is either the entire board or the $20 PSoC chip is being tossed out. But for a semi-discrete stack I can rework the board and only toss out some much cheaper components - at worst the $5 V3s + $2 MCP3911.

And I can segregate the market by physically removing or down specifying the chips, actually cutting the cost of lower tiered products, instead of producing the lowest end products using the same full scale stack and rely entirely on a software limitation to the performance (and risk being hacked or being called Digital Restriction Management encumbered.) My old example of the headphone amp is relevant here again - the board can be produced using the same STM32 + MCP42010 + op amp socket, and the market segment the board targets is determined by the chip inserted to the socket - LM324 (with a GD32 as the main microcontroller - GD32 can be considered a second source for STM32 with pin-to-pin compatible products) for the low end, TL074 for medium grade, and OPA4134 for the audiophile market.

You have been entirely focusing on the R&D cost but I am performing lifetime cost analysis here. PSoC have the benefit of low R&D cost (hence a fantastic prototyping tool - no more need of big messes of wires on a breadboard.) But when you start rolling the boards in mass production, taking in RMA's and sending out support engineers you would wish you did not keep using PSoC in the final product: the cost of reworking failed boards skyrockets. I'dexplore and experiment using PSoC, but when I prepare to submit the PCB to manufacturing I would have redrew the schematic from PSoC creator (don't get me started on this) using internal blocks to EAGLE using separate chips.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 05:25:55 pm by technix »
 


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