Author Topic: Pic mcu alternatives???  (Read 41510 times)

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Offline technix

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #50 on: June 21, 2017, 06:06:10 pm »
Thats one of the almost un-achievable aspects of the hi tech biz these days. One only has to look
at the history since 70s of the number of very big companies that have been absorbed or gone out
of business, Philips, National....Whole product lines spun off into oblivion. And who is trained to see
the future ?

Microchip still supports PICs from 20 years ago, so if you used one in your design, you can still buy replacement parts.
And Microchip maintains pin compatibility across the entire product lines.

Failed PIC16F877 and no replacement part at hand? Whack a PIC18F4550 in there and port the code over, you get a working board again.

Also since that is a simpler chip I can build an an adapter fitting an AVR or 5V tolerant ARM in there to make it work.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2017, 06:10:59 pm by technix »
 

Offline danadak

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #51 on: June 21, 2017, 10:33:17 pm »
We may be arguing two diverse sets of experiences.

I see your experience has been with what sounds like significant field failures.
Where mine has been, over the course of 30 years, dramatic reductions across the
board in field failure. Memory to micro to analog. In early part of my career, 45 years
ago, as a production engineer on MOS line, we drove process and design failure rates
into noise levels. The Japanese did the same in memory. In my experience the primary
remaining failures these days are passives and interconnect. I repair scopes, other
gear for fun, spend most of my time on passives, and an occasion power bipolar, or diode.

The NASA reference, my career spanned primarily moderate to very high volume
designs. But as a field engineer I did have to deal with product obsolescence issues,
and these took many paths, from your experience to true EOL product termination and
follow on redesign.

Product diversification,for sure I can understand your point. But then silicon programmability,
route-ability, can certainly aid in this. Here my experience has been that designs were largely
3 -5 year lifetime target, then entire redesign. In my account base as FAE most, not all, of
product span was software driven. In fact many designs the HW was almost irrelevant in the
program management, it was all software development.

So I think we have quite different experiences coloring our viewpoint, at least in my case
that is surely true.

So in summary I tend to think minimum parts, get rid of interconnect.


Regards, Dana.
Love Cypress PSOC, ATTiny, Bit Slice, OpAmps, Oscilloscopes, and Analog Gurus like Pease, Miller, Widlar, Dobkin, obsessed with being an engineer
 

Offline technix

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #52 on: June 21, 2017, 11:41:53 pm »
We may be arguing two diverse sets of experiences.

I see your experience has been with what sounds like significant field failures.
Where mine has been, over the course of 30 years, dramatic reductions across the
board in field failure. Memory to micro to analog. In early part of my career, 45 years
ago, as a production engineer on MOS line, we drove process and design failure rates
into noise levels. The Japanese did the same in memory. In my experience the primary
remaining failures these days are passives and interconnect. I repair scopes, other
gear for fun, spend most of my time on passives, and an occasion power bipolar, or diode.
I am Chinese. Folks here tend to abuse their shit a lot. There are just way too many repairs of people break their stuff.
The NASA reference, my career spanned primarily moderate to very high volume
designs. But as a field engineer I did have to deal with product obsolescence issues,
and these took many paths, from your experience to true EOL product termination and
follow on redesign.
This goes back to my point: when a simpler component is EOL’d I can poke around and find a replacement to go on next production run, without having to respin the board itself and pay for the new masks.
Product diversification,for sure I can understand your point. But then silicon programmability,
route-ability, can certainly aid in this. Here my experience has been that designs were largely
3 -5 year lifetime target, then entire redesign. In my account base as FAE most, not all, of
product span was software driven. In fact many designs the HW was almost irrelevant in the
program management, it was all software development.

So I think we have quite different experiences coloring our viewpoint, at least in my case
that is surely true.

So in summary I tend to think minimum parts, get rid of interconnect.


Regards, Dana.
People will take your stuff apart. The moment they find out that your base model and premium model have the same PCB components people will start hacking it to squeeze the premium performance out of the baseline parts, and give you the bad reputation of selling DRM-encumbered hardware. Remember Rigol and Riglol hack, by putting a generated code into your DS1054Z you get a DS1104Z?

Also this eats away my margin of profit as the base model and premium model have the very same hardware and thus production cost. When I can replace or remove components I can actually cut costs on the base model by not using the best components or not installing some components at all.

This also prevents people from loading the premium firmware into the base model and expecting it to work - you have to rework the PCB itself before trying the software hack.
 

Offline Bruce Abbott

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #53 on: June 22, 2017, 01:45:23 am »
I tend to think minimum parts, get rid of interconnect.
Indeed, that's whole reason MCUs were invented - the more you can do inside the chip the better.

But there's a downside - in order to make it attractive to more customers you have to stuff it full of features that most of them will never use, or produce dozens of variations with different feature sets. With PSOC you don't have to do either.

I have an application that needs just two things - an 8 bit parallel slave port to interface to a 5V CPU bus, and SPI for an SD-card. I wanted to do it all in one chip without a bunch of level convertors, external logic gates or a CPLD. It has to be available in a reasonably small package but still 'DIY friendly' (no BGA etc.) and modestly priced. I spent a lot of time examining the datasheets of dozens of PICs and only one seemed to be suitable (and even that needed a few level converters). I have a PIC32MX150F128D which has both a parallel slave port and SPI, but guess what - due to a pin assignment conflict you can't use both at the same time!  >:(
 
PSOC is the only MCU that will do what I want, and I if I want something different it will still do it.
 
 
 

Offline technix

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #54 on: June 22, 2017, 02:25:41 am »
I tend to think minimum parts, get rid of interconnect.
Indeed, that's whole reason MCUs were invented - the more you can do inside the chip the better.

But there's a downside - in order to make it attractive to more customers you have to stuff it full of features that most of them will never use, or produce dozens of variations with different feature sets. With PSOC you don't have to do either.
I can spin the same PCB and leave different portions of the circuit unpopulated or underspecified. With PSoC the premium and baseline products have the same production cost thus eating away at the profit margin of the lower end models. But for my optional mounting on PCB trick the baseline models are indeed cheaper to build.

Once again, do you remember the Rigol hack? It is simpley because that Rigol built the baseline and advanced models using the same PCB people started hacking it to make the baseline model work like an advanced one. Try count up how much revenue you would lose in this kind of hacking, and the bad reputation of selling DRM-encumbered products.
I have an application that needs just two things - an 8 bit parallel slave port to interface to a 5V CPU bus, and SPI for an SD-card. I wanted to do it all in one chip without a bunch of level convertors, external logic gates or a CPLD. It has to be available in a reasonably small package but still 'DIY friendly' (no BGA etc.) and modestly priced. I spent a lot of time examining the datasheets of dozens of PICs and only one seemed to be suitable (and even that needed a few level converters). I have a PIC32MX150F128D which has both a parallel slave port and SPI, but guess what - due to a pin assignment conflict you can't use both at the same time!  >:(
Try WCH CH563. It does all the above at the same time (the only set of conflicting pin assignments I know of is the parallel master and slave ports, but that does make sense as it can put the main CPU on hold and perform DMA on its own this way.) And it is a 32-bit MCU too based on ARM9 core.
PSOC is the only MCU that will do what I want, and I if I want something different it will still do it.
Try shop around a bit and you will find other options than PSoC that satisfies your needs.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 02:28:38 am by technix »
 

Offline george.b

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #55 on: June 22, 2017, 03:06:36 am »
No love for the MSP430?
 

Offline technix

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #56 on: June 22, 2017, 03:25:39 am »
Try WCH CH563. It does all the above at the same time (the only set of conflicting pin assignments I know of is the parallel.

Issues of WCH chip:

Does it operate at 5V without level shifters and regulators?
It is a 3.3V part with 5V tolerant I/O. So I would assume useable in a 5V system.
Does it have a proven CPU such as ARM or MIPS?
ARM9.
Does it have a distributor in the western world?
No idea. Ask WCH for this.
Does it have a properly translated English datasheet and SDK?
They do, although the translation is a bit rusty.
Can it guarantee all its IP blocks and SDK are properly licensed so you don't have a problem exporting in massive quantity?
WCH have ARM9 license and they cooked up the remaining IP cores themselves.
Has it been field tested in harsh environment, which PSoC has been?
You have to ask WCH for this.
 

Offline technix

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #57 on: June 22, 2017, 03:28:32 am »
No love for the MSP430?
Don't bother mentioning anything other than PSoC now in this thread - flame war ongoing. My trying to defend off the PSoC warriors is probably going to get me banned soon.
 

Offline technix

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #58 on: June 22, 2017, 04:13:10 am »
Does it have a proven CPU such as ARM or MIPS?
ARM9.

Can it guarantee all its IP blocks and SDK are properly licensed so you don't have a problem exporting in massive quantity?
WCH have ARM9 license and they cooked up the remaining IP cores themselves.

If you designed a chip and used a properly licensed ARM9 core, will you call it ARMv5 compatible RISC core or just an ARM9 core?

BTW. when I say IP infringement, I mean not only IP copyright, but also patent. Strictly speaking every SD (except SPI or MMC mode) card enabled device should have an SD patent, which 90%+ don't.
They took out the entire CP15 so it no longer an actual ARM9 core, thus only ARMv5 compatible.

Also show me the proof that TI or ST or NXP have SD license.
 

Offline technix

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #59 on: June 22, 2017, 05:00:12 am »
Also show me the proof that TI or ST or NXP have SD license.

ST offers a lot of proprietary technologies, such as AAC, MP4, SD and more. They don't provide the license with each silicon as that will be too expensive for those don't need it, also, some IPs have a percentage of retail price based licensing model, rather than a flat rate.

ST however, offers a licensing program, so you can get license from ST, and essentially ST becomes a man in middle for some licensed technologies. Google ST fast MP3 decoder, that's a good example (though MP3 has just expired).

NXP does the similar thing. They offer a licensed gstreamer plugin set for iMX processors, you need to contact them for more info.

As for SD, since anyway most MCU users use SPI interface it doesn't matter, and most embedded designs use eMMC interface, that also circumvents the licensing issue. However, if you want to put an SD slot with SD interface, you have to obtain a license.

I don't see WCH offering a licensing program for the IPs they used in their demo applications.

The same extends to why people spend $4-digit to buy IP cores from Altera or Xilinx, rather than grab one from OpenCores. It's likely for a small player, getting the patent license from its true owner is more expensive then getting copyright license+patent license from an IP distributor like Altera.
SD card have built-in DRM features which is extremely underused, and that is the only other technology the SD license would offer along with UHS-II, since for generic block devices the card would be simply placed into 1- or 4-bit MMC mode, which is license free. SDHC and SDXC capacity additions are made in coordination with MMC team (hence the 16GB eMMC being available now) so it is not covered in SD license. (The DDR modes on SD cards seemed to me like a response to the 8-bit mode in MMC. Also the UHS-II additional pins seemed to me like a half-hearted imitation of UFS SCSI interface or NVMe PCIe interface.)

For WCH CH563: they took the CP15 out of their implementation of an ARM9-based core, hence it is no longer a complete ARM9 core, instead it can only be called ARMv5-compatible. Their "SD" interface is actually a 4-bit MMC interface incapable of making use of the DRM features of SD interface.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 05:16:31 am by technix »
 
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Offline technix

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #60 on: June 22, 2017, 05:12:39 am »
SD card have built-in DRM features which is extremely underused, and that is the only technology the SD license would offer, since for generic block devices the card would be simply placed into 1- or 4-bit MMC mode, which is license free. SDHC and SDXC capacity additions are made in coordination with MMC team (hence the 16GB eMMC being available now) so it is not covered in SD license.

Is there any reference for this? That will not only help me, but help a lot of people here pulling their hair on SD license.
There is a passing mention on Wikipedia saying that SD cards have DRM features which MMC lacked, but there is barely anyone using it AFAIK. For any other purposes SD in SPI, 1-, 4-bit and UHS-I modes is electrically and logically equivalent to, at least compatible with MMC.

So there are only two features of SD that really mandates a SD license: DRM and UHS-II. The first is barely used anywhere (maybe except Windows Phone 7.) The second have stiff requirements for the host interface, not a lot of people would be even able to think about using.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 05:15:24 am by technix »
 

Offline technix

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #61 on: June 22, 2017, 05:44:56 am »
There is a passing mention on Wikipedia saying that SD cards have DRM features which MMC lacked, but there is barely anyone using it AFAIK. For any other purposes SD in SPI, 1-, 4-bit and UHS-I modes is electrically and logically equivalent to, at least compatible with MMC.

Is there a chance that MMC uses SD technology or they cross licensed each other, and SD Association exempts the use of SD technology with MMC cards, but not with SD cards?
I think historically it was SD tracking MMC and keeping being a strict superset of MMC. Coming to the SDHC days there have been a lot of cross licensing and technology feedback going on, with MMC taking up the high capacity capabilities first designed by SD association. The SD association knows what technology is being borrowed from MMC and what is their own creation.

TechnologyStatus
SPI modeSD -> MMC
MMC/SD 1-bit modeMMC -> SD
MMC/SD 4-bit modeMMC -> SD
MMC 8-bit modeMMC only
SDIOBased on standard MMC/SD 1-/4-bit mode anyway
32GB and 2TB support (SDHC and SDXC)SD -> MMC
UHS-IISD only
DRMSD only, rarely used
 

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #62 on: June 22, 2017, 06:00:25 am »
No love for the MSP430?

Expensive, lack of modern peripherals and the killer feature at introduction, which is ultra low power, is no longer advantageous compared with competitors.
Code Composer Studio and the free TI Compiler are pretty good. Decent libraries in their "MSP430ware" package. Well documented. A reasonable selection of packages across the line from small to large, including DIP if that's your thing. I don't care for DIP anymore but a lot of hobbyists still like it. The FRAM parts are intriguing if you were previously dependent on EEPROM or Flash. Popular and good community support. That's all important stuff, right?

It is a little more expensive than the competition, but not that much. Maybe a dollar more or so? It's something to take into account for quantities over 1000, I guess. Certainly not the sort of pain I had recently trying to stock up on STM32F405 at $10/chip, since I needed the two USB OTG host interfaces. That became expensive really fast.

MSP430 isn't a crazy whiz-bang everything included platform, but it has the sort of peripherals that most projects would need. I like it. I don't look for everything on one chip. I would rather just have enough UARTs that I can talk to what I want.

It's a pretty good platform for someone trying to deal with a PIC16 and the sad XC8 compiler situation, and looking to try something new (the original post in the thread). So is any Cortex M0+ chip if you want to see what the ARM hype is about, or a whole lot of products.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 06:02:14 am by Elf »
 

Offline Bruce Abbott

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #63 on: June 22, 2017, 07:19:57 am »
I can spin the same PCB and leave different portions of the circuit unpopulated or underspecified.
For me the PCB is likely to cost more than the chip, so I would rather not have unpopulated areas that I may never use. 

Quote
Rigol built the baseline and advanced models using the same PCB people started hacking it to make the baseline model work like an advanced one. Try count up how much revenue you would lose in this kind of hacking,
I wouldn't lose because I wouldn't have played such a dirty trick on my customers. And if they find a way to make it more advanced then more power to them! (warranty void of course...).

Quote
Try WCH CH563. It does all the above at the same time (the only set of conflicting pin assignments I know of is the parallel master and slave ports, but that does make sense as it can put the main CPU on hold and perform DMA on its own this way.) And it is a 32-bit MCU too based on ARM9 core.
Figures. The device I am trying to duplicate (and improve) is the CH376.

I downloaded the CH563 manual, but it's written in Chinese and Google couldn't translate it. Is there an English version? Google couldn't find any suppliers either. Where do you buy the chip?
 

Offline technix

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #64 on: June 22, 2017, 07:46:59 am »
I can spin the same PCB and leave different portions of the circuit unpopulated or underspecified.
For me the PCB is likely to cost more than the chip, so I would rather not have unpopulated areas that I may never use. 
I may have a different mindset than yours here - I design the top of the line product first, then cut it down to form the lower tier products.

Also having multiple different PCBs not only can cost more in production but also increases the cost of stocking them. With one single PCB taking care of an entire product line I can maneuver the business much more nimbly by pulling or adding components as needed. Hell I can even rework RMA'd high tier boards into useable lower tiered one by slicing traces. Yes my production cost can be slightly higher but the long term maintenance cost is grinded down into the mud.
Quote
Rigol built the baseline and advanced models using the same PCB people started hacking it to make the baseline model work like an advanced one. Try count up how much revenue you would lose in this kind of hacking,
I wouldn't lose because I wouldn't have played such a dirty trick on my customers. And if they find a way to make it more advanced then more power to them! (warranty void of course...).
Think again. If you differentiate the market only by the code loaded into the PSoC, isn't that the same as the Rigol here?

For me if you paid more you do actually get more circuit - either more components mounted, or better components mounted.
Quote
Try WCH CH563. It does all the above at the same time (the only set of conflicting pin assignments I know of is the parallel master and slave ports, but that does make sense as it can put the main CPU on hold and perform DMA on its own this way.) And it is a 32-bit MCU too based on ARM9 core.
Figures. The device I am trying to duplicate (and improve) is the CH376.

I downloaded the CH563 manual, but it's written in Chinese and Google couldn't translate it. Is there an English version? Google couldn't find any suppliers either. Where do you buy the chip?
CH376 is a 5V tolerant chip in the first place, with internal 3.3V regulator for the USB stack... If your system does not use 3.3V elsewhere you just need to hook a bypass cap to the V3 pin and it would work.
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #65 on: June 22, 2017, 08:25:02 am »

Think again. If you differentiate the market only by the code loaded into the PSoC, isn't that the same as the Rigol here?

For me if you paid more you do actually get more circuit - either more components mounted, or better components mounted.

By this logic a PC with only Linux installed on it would cost the same as a PC with some expensive commercial software pre-installed on it.
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Offline technix

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #66 on: June 22, 2017, 08:38:09 am »

Think again. If you differentiate the market only by the code loaded into the PSoC, isn't that the same as the Rigol here?

For me if you paid more you do actually get more circuit - either more components mounted, or better components mounted.

By this logic a PC with only Linux installed on it would cost the same as a PC with some expensive commercial software pre-installed on it.
Windows and Linux are licensed from someone else - just like the components on boards that is bought from someone else. I am talking about code you created that goes into the PSoC.

Either you have developed the code for different tiers of product separately (which does not make sense - why are you reinventing the wheels over and over again,) cut the code to match the product tier (hack bait,) licensed it from somewhere else (like this Windows vs Linux scenario - it is the end user pirating someone else's code, not really my business) or you are hurting your own margin of profit in the lower tier product.

For me there is only one shared firmware code that is common across all models, from the baseline to the most advanced. The POST process will detect the presence of various subsystems and enable or disable the corresponding software features accordingly (please do not tell me you don't have a POST procedure...)
 

Offline JanJansen

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #67 on: June 22, 2017, 12:07:22 pm »
No one mentions DIP packaging.
There is no better choice if you want DIP i found out, please tell me if it is not correct.
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Online tszaboo

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #68 on: June 22, 2017, 12:32:39 pm »
I'm just waiting for someone to ctrl+c ctrl+v here their Holy Wall Of Text of the PSOC, how it is superior to everything. BTW it's not.
I think it have arrived. Well a shorter version arrived, with a link to a MUCH longer one.
No love for the MSP430?
Don't bother mentioning anything other than PSoC now in this thread - flame war ongoing. My trying to defend off the PSoC warriors is probably going to get me banned soon.
I always imagine them like a bunch of birds, flying in through every window, and strating "PSOC PSOC PSOC PSOC"
"You can add two values with PSOC hardware"... but I dont want to..."Its so great, its only 10 bucks for the devboard. I used it to blink an LED. Eat it! Eat it!"
 

Online igendel

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #69 on: June 22, 2017, 12:55:16 pm »
I always imagine them like a bunch of birds, flying in through every window, and strating "PSOC PSOC PSOC PSOC"
"You can add two values with PSOC hardware"... but I dont want to..."Its so great, its only 10 bucks for the devboard. I used it to blink an LED. Eat it! Eat it!"

What's PSoC? Is it some kind of a microcontroller? Is it better than the other kinds?









...sorry, couldn't help it  :D
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Offline alm

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #70 on: June 22, 2017, 01:16:46 pm »
No one mentions DIP packaging.
No one? What about Elf's post about MSP430 just a few posts above yours?

There is no better choice if you want DIP i found out, please tell me if it is not correct.
Define better? On the low end MSP430 and AVR are both available in DIP. I believe at some point NXP made an ARM Cortex M0 in DIP, but I am not sure if that is still available. I do not think there is much competition for PIC32 in DIP.

Offline technix

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #71 on: June 22, 2017, 01:48:17 pm »
No one mentions DIP packaging.
There is no better choice if you want DIP i found out, please tell me if it is not correct.
32-bit: There are the PIC32 line, LPC810M021FN8 and LPC1114FN28.
16-bit: PIC24, dsPIC30, dsPIC33 lines, MSP430 line.
8-bit: Well classic 8-bit are still available in 8-bit packages.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 01:49:48 pm by technix »
 

Offline ebclr

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #72 on: June 22, 2017, 01:57:22 pm »
"What's PSoC? Is it some kind of a microcontroller? Is it better than the other kinds?"

Your answer is on this link

https://brightcove.hs.llnwd.net/e1/uds/pd/1362235890001/1362235890001_5241352463001_2606504288001.mp4?pubId=1362235890001&videoId=2606504288001
 

Offline technix

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #73 on: June 22, 2017, 02:02:18 pm »
I always imagine them like a bunch of birds, flying in through every window, and strating "PSOC PSOC PSOC PSOC"
This comparison is lit.
"You can add two values with PSOC hardware"... but I dont want to...
And the value adding doesn't really work out in a lot of cases.
"Its so great, its only 10 bucks for the devboard. I used it to blink an LED. Eat it! Eat it!"
I am okay with burning $10 now so I bought one. I am going to verify the fact content of whatever they claimed it to be. Blog posts upcoming.
 

Online igendel

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Re: Pic mcu alternatives???
« Reply #74 on: June 22, 2017, 02:02:56 pm »
"What's PSoC? Is it some kind of a microcontroller? Is it better than the other kinds?"

Your answer is on this link

https://brightcove.hs.llnwd.net/e1/uds/pd/1362235890001/1362235890001_5241352463001_2606504288001.mp4?pubId=1362235890001&videoId=2606504288001

Thanks, but I think you missed the bottom line of my post...  ;)
Maker projects, tutorials etc. on my Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/idogendel/
 


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