Pic mcu alternatives???

[technix]

"What's PSoC? Is it some kind of a microcontroller? Is it better than the other kinds?"

Your answer is on this link

https://brightcove.hs.llnwd.net/e1/uds/pd/1362235890001/1362235890001_5241352463001_2606504288001.mp4?pubId=1362235890001&videoId=2606504288001

Thanks, but I think you missed the bottom line of my post... 

I do appreciate the humor, but you might be feeding the flame...

[JanJansen]

No one? What about Elf's post about MSP430 just a few posts above yours?

Oh sorry, did not see.

Define better? On the low end MSP430 and AVR are both available in DIP. I believe at some point NXP made an ARM Cortex M0 in DIP, but I am not sure if that is still available. I do not think there is much competition for PIC32 in DIP.

I mean improvement over the best PIC chips in DIP, like top of the line, newest stuff only.
PIC chips in DIP has 28 pins, i would like to have a 40 pin package also.

Do the NXP has free compiler without any paying involved for better performance ?,
not that PIC is bad if you set your project from optimize 0 to optimize 1 ( still free ),
it frustrates me that i risk one day to loose a lot of money because i want full optimize, i better buy nice hardware for that money.

Ok i know : need to buy converter sockets for those SMD chips, maybe a microscope and more, first lets see what i still can get in DIP.
If no one buys DIP they are being faded out of production faster also.

LPC810M021FN8 and LPC1114FN28.
MSP430 line.

Thanks, will take a look.

[technix]

Do the NXP has free compiler without any paying involved for better performance ?,
not that PIC is bad if you set your project from optimize 0 to optimize 1 ( still free ),
it frustrates me that i risk one day to loose a lot of money because i want full optimize, i better buy nice hardware for that money.

It is an ARM Cortex-M0 chip so GCC and LLVM/clang would work... If you have trouble finding vendor tools you might as well skip it entirely and go straight to (vanilla) Eclipse CDT + GNU ARM Eclipse + GCC ARM Embedded toolchain.

Ok i know : need to buy converter sockets for those SMD chips, maybe a microscope and more, first lets see what i still can get in DIP.
If no one buys DIP they are being faded out of production faster also.

Sadly true. I tried to find the 28-pin LPC1114FN28 but all I find for LPC1114 line is QFP-48 ones.

You can find adapter boards for most SMT packages that fits breadboards. I even have QFP-48 STM32F303CCT6 on such adapters.

[Sal Ammoniac]

If no one buys DIP they are being faded out of production faster also.

I'm surprised that any company is still making DIP parts. Only hobbyists really use them, and the volume associated with that is peanuts. It must be because they still have a large stock of legacy parts sitting on shelves.

[technix]

If no one buys DIP they are being faded out of production faster also.

I'm surprised that any company is still making DIP parts. Only hobbyists really use them, and the volume associated with that is peanuts. It must be because they still have a large stock of legacy parts sitting on shelves.

A lot of cheap gadgets made in China still uses the 80's DIP on single layer board construct - damn cheap to make.

[JPortici]

i like to use socketed dip chips for pats that may blow up, like drivers/comparators
when making a new product i start with a protoboard with the target MCU. if same core/peripherals but dip+less pins part is available i use that one (microchip the great)

i usually don't have a lot of space for that enormous adapters, also a lot less wires to solder

for 8 bitters i prototype with sockets also because i can upgrade/downgrade/change with pin to pin compatible by just removing chip from socket and inserting a new one

[technix]

i like to use socketed dip chips for pats that may blow up, like drivers/comparators
when making a new product i start with a protoboard with the target MCU. if same core/peripherals but dip+less pins part is available i use that one (microchip the great)

i usually don't have a lot of space for that enormous adapters, also a lot less wires to solder

for 8 bitters i prototype with sockets also because i can upgrade/downgrade/change with pin to pin compatible by just removing chip from socket and inserting a new one

For me I socket all DIP chips regardless of purpose. The adapter boards comes with a SMD footprint and all pins broken out to breadboard compatible format. For adapters of packages SO-8 and smaller the adapter board is usually the same size as a 0.3in DIP package of the same pin count. SO and SOJ adapters can go up to 48 pins with 0.6in width. And I also have a 0.6in wide QFP48 adapter.

[alm]

I mean improvement over the best PIC chips in DIP, like top of the line, newest stuff only.
PIC chips in DIP has 28 pins, i would like to have a 40 pin package also.

It would surprise me to see any new series of micros came out in DIP. Even the recentish low-end STM8 core is not available in DIP as far as I know.

Do the NXP has free compiler without any paying involved for better performance ?,
not that PIC is bad if you set your project from optimize 0 to optimize 1 ( still free ),
it frustrates me that i risk one day to loose a lot of money because i want full optimize, i better buy nice hardware for that money.

I think Microchip is pretty much the only vendor to strip optimization from a compiler. More common is a code size limit for either programming or debugging. NXP has their own LPCXpresso/MCUXpresso (they acquired the company behind it, Code Red, a couple of years ago) which is Eclipse + CDT + gcc + their proprietary debugging/programming stuff. The only limitation as far as I know is a fairly generous programming limit. As with any ARM chip, you can also just grap the open source ARM gcc compiler, Eclipse, CDT etc to have a fully open source IDE.

Ok i know : need to buy converter sockets for those SMD chips, maybe a microscope and more, first lets see what i still can get in DIP.
If no one buys DIP they are being faded out of production faster also.

Their are also numerous development boards in DIP footprint that might work for prototyping.

[Bruce Abbott]

I'm surprised that any company is still making DIP parts. Only hobbyists really use them,

I'm surprised that platforms such as the Arduino and Raspberry Pi exist - only hobbyists use them. 

Some manufacturers think the hobbyist, educational and and small-scale professional markets aren't worth chasing. They make MCUs you never heard of and nobody wants.     

[Bruce Abbott]

CH376 is a 5V tolerant chip in the first place, with internal 3.3V regulator for the USB stack... If your system does not use 3.3V elsewhere you just need to hook a bypass cap to the V3 pin and it would work.

I don't think you quite understand. The CH376 'works' but has performance issues. Since it doesn't appear to be hackable, I need another chip to replace it. 

You suggested the CH563, which looks like it could be a good choice. However without a readable datasheet and source of supply it is useless. Can you help me? If not then PSOC is still my best option.

[technix]

CH376 is a 5V tolerant chip in the first place, with internal 3.3V regulator for the USB stack... If your system does not use 3.3V elsewhere you just need to hook a bypass cap to the V3 pin and it would work.

I don't think you quite understand. The CH376 'works' but has performance issues. Since it doesn't appear to be hackable, I need another chip to replace it. 

You suggested the CH563, which looks like it could be a good choice. However without a readable datasheet and source of supply it is useless. Can you help me? If not then PSOC is still my best option.

It takes time and money to translate the documentation. I can help but only if someone is willing to pay for the labor.

As of the chips I can source them for you directly from WCH (it is a two hour drive from Shanghai to Nanjing, where WCH is located.)

[twiddle]

Sadly true. I tried to find the 28-pin LPC1114FN28 but all I find for LPC1114 line is QFP-48 ones.

You can find adapter boards for most SMT packages that fits breadboards. I even have QFP-48 STM32F303CCT6 on such adapters.

Both the NXP DIP package chips are still listed as being in production, but it looks like they have absurdly high MOQ and none of the major distributors bother any more.
Makes me glad I managed to get 15 or so LPC1114 when element14 stocked them, they are great for testing, but I wish I had grabbed some of the LPC8XX as an alternative to ATTiny85s. If you can find anybody selling the 1114, they are ideal for getting into ARM with absolute minimal cost, gcc works well with them (as it should for most Cortex-M). 

I second the adapter boards - I've used 48 and 64-pin packages on breadboards via them - its not ideal but it gets the job done.

[NorthGuy]

I second the adapter boards - I've used 48 and 64-pin packages on breadboards via them - its not ideal but it gets the job done.

I use lots of adapter boards with sockets. They let you easily prototype with practically any package. This one is for TQFP:



I use them even with DIP packages, which are still the easiest to deal with:



For dual packages, such as SOIC or SSOP, I solder them on a PCB SSOP-to-DIP adapters and then I can easily plug them into my ZIF sockets.

[Bruce Abbott]

It takes time and money to translate the documentation. I can help but only if someone is willing to pay for the labor.

You don't need to translate it, just convert the pdf text to something Google Translate can handle (or tell me how to do it).

[technix]

It takes time and money to translate the documentation. I can help but only if someone is willing to pay for the labor.

You don't need to translate it, just convert the pdf text to something Google Translate can handle (or tell me how to do it).

Try open it with Windows version of Word 2016.

[technix]

I second the adapter boards - I've used 48 and 64-pin packages on breadboards via them - its not ideal but it gets the job done.

I use lots of adapter boards with sockets. They let you easily prototype with practically any package. This one is for TQFP:



I use them even with DIP packages, which are still the easiest to deal with:



For dual packages, such as SOIC or SSOP, I solder them on a PCB SSOP-to-DIP adapters and then I can easily plug them into my ZIF sockets.

These are fancy.

I got the most simple type - I just solder the chip and a strip of pins onto the board and good to go.

[Sal Ammoniac]

Some manufacturers think the hobbyist, educational and and small-scale professional markets aren't worth chasing. They make MCUs you never heard of and nobody wants.

And some of those manufacturers sell millions of those parts nobody wants.

[igendel]

About these adapter boards with sockets for SMD parts - Do they cause problems with external capacitors or crystals that need to be very close to the MCU pins?

[JanJansen]

I think Microchip is pretty much the only vendor to strip optimization from a compiler. More common is a code size limit for either programming or debugging. NXP has their own LPCXpresso/MCUXpresso (they acquired the company behind it, Code Red, a couple of years ago) which is Eclipse + CDT + gcc + their proprietary debugging/programming stuff. The only limitation as far as I know is a fairly generous programming limit. As with any ARM chip, you can also just grap the open source ARM gcc compiler, Eclipse, CDT etc to have a fully open source IDE.

A program limit or no optimize is the same to me, i would like to use all space possible for lookuptables without limits,
using all space for lookuptables can only be done with ASM for PICs, i only can code in C.
How about the competition ?, can they use all ROM for LUTs ?

Open source sounds good, if i dont have to compile anything, i like original stuff better.

[technix]

I think Microchip is pretty much the only vendor to strip optimization from a compiler. More common is a code size limit for either programming or debugging. NXP has their own LPCXpresso/MCUXpresso (they acquired the company behind it, Code Red, a couple of years ago) which is Eclipse + CDT + gcc + their proprietary debugging/programming stuff. The only limitation as far as I know is a fairly generous programming limit. As with any ARM chip, you can also just grap the open source ARM gcc compiler, Eclipse, CDT etc to have a fully open source IDE.

A program limit or no optimize is the same to me, i would like to use all space possible for lookuptables without limits,
using all space for lookuptables can only be done with ASM for PICs, i only can code in C.
How about the competition ?, can they use all ROM for LUTs ?

Open source sounds good, if i dont have to compile anything, i like original stuff better.

I write LUTs in C (big const array) so...

Actually for some architecture (like ARM) the open source stuff may actually be the best: For GCC the GNU folks adds architecture independent optimizations to all available architectures so ARM code may benefit from something that originated from Intel or IBM. For LLVM/clang we have Apple and Google being two of the biggest contributors, both being very will known for their ARM-based systems (iOS and Android respectively) and have every reason to add as much optimizations as they can.

[NorthGuy]

About these adapter boards with sockets for SMD parts - Do they cause problems with external capacitors or crystals that need to be very close to the MCU pins?

The big socket board has SMD capacitors on the bottom. The small one only has two TH capacitors on top (0.1uF decoupling cap at the power entry and 10uF next to the ZIF, which is sometimes needed) - it is for PIC16/18 which are rather low frequency. I've never had any problems with those and I have lots of such sockets.

As to the crystals, you can see the connectors to place crystals. This certainly isn't close to the MCU pins, but I've never had any problems with those neither. Of course, this is not what you would do for production, but this works fine for testing and prototyping.

[alm]

A program limit or no optimize is the same to me, i would like to use all space possible for lookuptables without limits,
using all space for lookuptables can only be done with ASM for PICs, i only can code in C.
How about the competition ?, can they use all ROM for LUTs ?

Open source sounds good, if i dont have to compile anything, i like original stuff better.

With programming limit I meant the size of the file it will program in a target. That is what NXP does in their own IDE. Again, it is just a packaged version of GCC, GDB, Eclipse, CDT, etc, plus some features like dedicated register views. There are other packaged versions of this stuff like Atollic (limits advanced features like multi core, tracing and RTOS, no code size). I believe CooCox CoIde is fairly popular with Windows users wanting a free IDE without having to do much setup. Generally these third-party IDEs will support all common ARM Cortex lines like STM32, NXP LPC1xxx andTI Teva.

I do not see the problem with putting stuff in ROM in C. Something like

Code: [Select]

static const uint8_t[0x20000] = { 1, 4, 6, ... };
Should end up in ROM.

[JanJansen]

I do not see the problem with putting stuff in ROM in C. Something like

Code: [Select]

static const uint8_t[0x20000] = { 1, 4, 6, ... };
Should end up in ROM.

I wish that would work for my DSPIC33FJGP802
it can only be done in ASM they say, i need that without learning ASM.
Someone posted some ASM code, i dont wanto copy it without knowing what it is, unreadable stuff.
Then i wanto mix it together with C code, maybe that can mess things up also ?

[technix]

I do not see the problem with putting stuff in ROM in C. Something like

Code: [Select]

static const uint8_t[0x20000] = { 1, 4, 6, ... };
Should end up in ROM.

I wish that would work for my DSPIC33FJGP802
it can only be done in ASM they say, i need that without learning ASM.
Someone posted some ASM code, i dont wanto copy it without knowing what it is, unreadable stuff.
Then i wanto mix it together with C code, maybe that can mess things up also ?

Maybe you need to add some kind of keyword to tell the compiler you need to put the code in program Flash, like the PROGMEM on AVR.

[nctnico]

I'm not familiar with the DSPpic family but DSP usually means a Harvard architecture where you can't easely access data from the flash (ROM) except for the program machinecode because you have two seperated address spaces. The ASM code probably copies data from the ROM to RAM but if you initialise the data the C startup files should do that. Anyway nowadays it really isn't necessary to mess with thise kind of obfustigated architectures unless you need crazy performance. Just move over to ARM which has a single address space and (depending on the core) DSP extensions and SIMD instructions.