PICkit 3 - vs - PICkit 2 Has the PICkit 3 improved in the last 5 years?

[KL27x]

Been using PK3 for quite a bit, now.

Here's an update on some of my previous posts

IPE is still slow as molasses. It only works reasonably spiffy after a clean reboot of my computer it seems. I think once I have used MPLAB 8.x, once, the damage is done. So my original time estimates are pretty accurate on my Win7 comp.

Opening IPE on my Windows computer:
1. At 24 seconds, the window finally opens.
2. At 45 seconds, the output window says "finished loading IPE software"
3. After plugging in the PK3, it takes about 30 seconds before you can successfully connect.
4. It takes another 30 seconds or so to connect after you hit "connect." If you don't wait for step 3, connection will fail and will take like 45 seconds before you can try again. 
5. It takes another 30 seconds or so to setup p2go.

Between all the waiting, it takes me probably 5 to 10 minutes to set up a single PK3 for P2GO. It takes only ~20 seconds to do the same thing on a PK2.

Programming speed:
In a variety of different firmwares with the same device, PK3 is sometimes a bit faster, and sometimes a bit slower (than PK2 set for fast programming; changing speed of the PK3 doesn't seem to do anything). So really no speed advantage at this point for my current use.

Reliability:
Well, after flashing many hundreds of boards, reliability has been pretty good. There is stlll a rare board that cannot be flashed with the PK3. One board, it could flash, but it couldn't reflash? PK3 flashed the board once, then couldn't reflash it; just left it code unlocked. PK2 worked no problem; tried again with PK3, no dice. MCLR was on and N/C, and DAT/CLK lines unused (high impedance, pullups on in the code), so this is just strange. I notice the Vdd is supplied all the time, once you start using it. I suspect the power doesn't cut out long enough for the circuit to always respond to Vpp-first programming, maybe? (Even though I'm not using MCLR on this board).

Also, it seems like the delay between MCLR going to Vpp and data being sent may be shorter than on the PK2. This may be cause for some of the reliability issues I am having. PK2 is such a long delay, I can use Vpp to activate SSR's for DAT/CLK, so I can leave the programmer plugged in for dev and still use those lines in my circuit. My attempts to do the same on the PK3 have failed.

So aside from a couple of major pros in P2GO mode (namely the ability to ignore device ID), the PK3 has very little improvement for me aside from the debugger and the improved device compatibility. And even for dev use, I am often preferring my (modified) PK2 for devices where I'm using ICSP pins.

If anyone knows a more recent firmware suite, lemme know. I have 4 different versions, latest is 1.34.11. I can't even figure out how/where to get these firmware files, anymore. Seems like a year ago I found a few new ones and had to install these through MPLAB, manually. I seem to recall it being a bit of a scavenger hunt even trying to find those. IIRC, I got them from links from random posters, rather than from a Microchip website. All my current searches just come up with answers like "firmware downloads automatically," which seems to suggest that most people don't even know you can change firmware suites. (I'm not talking about the different firmwares between device families; these are *.JAR files which are installed via MPLAB, and the suite version remains consistent even when the device downloads different firmwares between device families).

Some of these four firmwares are less buggy then the others. (P2GO on the original PK3 is buggy in all of them).

[macboy]

Been using PK3 for quite a bit, now.

Here's an update on some of my previous posts

IPE is still slow as molasses. It only works reasonably spiffy after a clean reboot of my computer it seems. I think once I have used MPLAB 8.x, once, the damage is done. So my original time estimates are pretty accurate on my Win7 comp.

...

You didn't mention using the MPLAB Device Driver Switcher utility to switch between MPLAB X drivers (for IPE) and MPLAB 8 drivers.  Are you doing this? Maybe your problem is with incompatible or conflicting drivers.

http://microchip.wikidot.com/mplabx:switching-usb-drivers

[Ian.M]

Its not.  The PICkit 2 and 3 are HID devices with no Windows system drivers (other than the MS native HID driver), so don't  need switching.  Microchip's other programmers and debuggers (ICD 3, Real ICE etc.) however, are not HID devices, and have Windows drivers that require switching.

[KL27x]

I didn't actually know that. I looked for the switcher, which I know I have. And I can't find it. I figured it's got that great feature of IPE where if you delete the shortcut, you might have to reinstall it.  So I just gave up. 

I am not using MPLAB X for anything right now, and I'm only using IPE to set up PK3 for P2go, because apparently I have to. So it looks like I don't need to reinstall the switcher.

With two of my earlier PK3 firmware suites installed on the PK3, I can go through the motions of setting up P2go in MPLAB 8.x, but it doesn't work. In the later FW suites, it looks like they just got tired of debugging 8.x and gave up, removing P2G from 8.x, completely. (Although the PK3 appears to work fine in MPLAB 8.x in every other aspect of programming/debugging.)

[Karel]

The PICkit 2 and 3 are HID devices ...

This explains why the programming takes so much time. Using hid device for usb avoids the need to make a custom driver at the cost of speed.
The pickit is meant for hobbyists. Don't use it for batch programming or when your time is precious.

[KL27x]

I don't think there's anything wrong with the programming speed that is caused by the driver. The flash speed in IPE, on my computer, is atrocious, mind you. But the speed in P2GO mode wouldn't be limited by the driver, and I have no complaints about the speed there. And I get approximately the same speed when using PK3 in MPLAB 8.x. The "slowness" that affects my usage is mostly related to the software.

[Karel]

I don't think there's anything wrong with the programming speed that is caused by the driver. The flash speed in IPE, on my computer, is atrocious, mind you. But the speed in P2GO mode wouldn't be limited by the driver, and I have no complaints about the speed there. And I get approximately the same speed when using PK3 in MPLAB 8.x. The "slowness" that affects my usage is mostly related to the software.

We use mainly pic32's. The ICD3 programs them about 5 times faster.

In general, I have no complaints about mplabx or ipe. It works fine and starts up fast enough. Maybe it's because we use Linux.

[Sal Ammoniac]

If you can afford it, get the ICD3 rather than a PICkit3.

The PICkit3 is okay for programming a PIC, but it's way too slow to use as a debugger. I think I'd rather be waterboarded than to have to use a PICkit3 to debug anything.

[JTR]

This explains why the programming takes so much time. Using hid device for usb avoids the need to make a custom driver at the cost of speed.

No, it is the scripting engine that is the major bottleneck. True enough that a USB class with greater bandwidth will provide quicker times but the gain would be somewhat less than if microchip provided optimized, device specific firmware - even with a FULL SPEED HID interface.  The native PK3 firmware (I.E. not the PK2 port) is somewhat towards this and thus faster than the PK2 scripting method but I would not claim that even this is what I meant by "optimal." 

The exception to this are older PICs which are simply slow to program due to the word only writes and longer write times.