Author Topic: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet  (Read 11669 times)

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Offline Rick LawTopic starter

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Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« on: February 09, 2016, 09:39:16 pm »
Ok, this bugs me.  So call it a rant.

A program is a program.  Why on earth would you call it a sketch.  Perhaps to say "I am a shmuck because I know Arduino?" -or- "I don't know squat so I call a program a sketch?"

I am being a bit bias here.  I like to dabble in programming now and again.  The idea of dabbling in sketching is not appealing.  Sketching implies to me drawing something, not writing something.

When there is already a perfectly good word: program for a program, why invent a new word...
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2016, 09:45:24 pm »
I guess it's something from the modern age. The modern word for 'nerd' is 'maker'.
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Offline HAL-42b

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2016, 09:53:41 pm »
When you can't match the skill level of those before you, you invent your own 'thang' and call it something different.

Program > Code > Application > App > Sketch

My prognosis for the future: Sketch > Swish > Gesture > Burp > Fart > Meh and so on as the skill level continues to fall.
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2016, 09:59:44 pm »
Anyone who thinks the use of new terms is a product of diminishing skill clearly didn't pay attention to the quality of most code years back. I'll get off your lawns, though...
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Offline Muxr

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2016, 10:06:10 pm »
Ok, this bugs me.  So call it a rant.

A program is a program.  Why on earth would you call it a sketch.  Perhaps to say "I am a shmuck because I know Arduino?" -or- "I don't know squat so I call a program a sketch?"

I am being a bit bias here.  I like to dabble in programming now and again.  The idea of dabbling in sketching is not appealing.  Sketching implies to me drawing something, not writing something.

When there is already a perfectly good word: program for a program, why invent a new word...
It stems from Processing. Processing is what Wiring is based on, the "Arduino language". Processing is a language initially made for electronic art and visual processing. This is why they named it a sketch. To appeal to the non-programmer crowd.

Personally I find it quite clever. It abstracts all the confusing stuff non programmers have a hard time grasping and lowers the barrier of entry, all this while really not sacrificing too much of the performance higher level scripting languages might. The popularity and Arduino adoption speak for itself.
 

Offline dferyance

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2016, 10:28:41 pm »
You are certainly not the only one that it bothers. Hell, it bothers me that programs are called "apps" when running on a tablet but "applications" when running on a laptop.

There is a lot that Arduino has done that makes the hobby fun for me. But it is limited by being stuck with its beginner friendly origins. I have lots of experience in software but am more limited in embedded software. The jump from Arduino into something more advanced (e.g. keil) is pretty big. I want both a real IDE (with debugger of course) but still having simple APIs and examples to get started. I wish it would grow a little more advanced while not forgetting its beginner-friendly roots. That would require significant changes to the Arduino IDE and no longer playing games at hiding the C++ behind it (e.g. sketches).
 

Offline Muxr

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2016, 10:32:20 pm »
You can do inline assembly in Wiring(Arduino). I dunno that is that restricted. But yeah if you'd like to learn how it's done in the industry then a real IDE and SDK is probably the way to go.

I use Arduino for test jigs. I find it good enough for that. For shipping stuff I use whatever IDE works best for a given MCU.
 

Offline HAL-42b

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2016, 10:38:00 pm »
Anyone who thinks the use of new terms is a product of diminishing skill clearly didn't pay attention to the quality of most code years back. I'll get off your lawns, though...

10 DEFINE FLAWED $SYSTEM_A
20 UNDERSTAND FLAWED $SYSTEM_A POORLY
30 WRITE $ABSTRACTION_LAYER OVER $SYSTEM_A SO YOU WON'T HAVE TO UNDERSTAND $SYSTEM_A
40 IMPLEMENT $ABSTRACTION_LAYER POORLY
50 $SYSTEM_A = $SYSTEM_A + 1.00
60 GOTO 10

Result:


Anything I missed?
 

Offline retrolefty

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2016, 10:44:51 pm »
Ok, this bugs me.  So call it a rant.

A program is a program.  Why on earth would you call it a sketch.  Perhaps to say "I am a shmuck because I know Arduino?" -or- "I don't know squat so I call a program a sketch?"

I am being a bit bias here.  I like to dabble in programming now and again.  The idea of dabbling in sketching is not appealing.  Sketching implies to me drawing something, not writing something.

When there is already a perfectly good word: program for a program, why invent a new word...
It stems from Processing. Processing is what Wiring is based on, the "Arduino language". Processing is a language initially made for electronic art and visual processing. This is why they named it a sketch. To appeal to the non-programmer crowd.

Personally I find it quite clever. It abstracts all the confusing stuff non programmers have a hard time grasping and lowers the barrier of entry, all this while really not sacrificing too much of the performance higher level scripting languages might. The popularity and Arduino adoption speak for itself.

 The original Arduino project was an in-house development effort for an educational institution to allow artist/media students to utilize microprocessors into their design projects. Sketch was just a name that was familiar to the people the project was aimed at. The aim wasn't to turn artists into computer geeks, but rather see what they could do using a simple to use IDE. The fact that it turned into a very good entry point for anyone wishing to understand and utilize microcontrollers was an unplanned side-effect.

 Processing was just the IDE model they used, not the java version used to program simple window applications. Wiring was an existing project that just defined a lot of functions and libraries to help abstract some of the microcontroller details, like pin# rather then port name/bit position used in the machine code. That along with the gcc C/C++ compiler tool chain and AVRDUDE downloading tool meant the original Arduino team had relatively little code to create from new but rather just assemble and integrate existing open source software components. Open sourcing the hardware was their best rather accedental step that quickly lead to it's popularity. Clones and homebuilt version were available even soon after the start.

 So a lot of the success was just luck of the right idea, at the right time, at the right price that opened up access for a lot more people. They replaced the Basic Stamp idea and user base with a better solution.



 


« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 10:57:09 pm by retrolefty »
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2016, 10:54:15 pm »
Anything I missed?

The point of abstraction?
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Offline HAL-42b

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2016, 11:07:01 pm »
The point of abstraction?

Writing One - Size - Fits - All code?
Poor understanding of the underlying structure?
Laziness?
 

Offline Muxr

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2016, 11:14:36 pm »
Ok, this bugs me.  So call it a rant.

A program is a program.  Why on earth would you call it a sketch.  Perhaps to say "I am a shmuck because I know Arduino?" -or- "I don't know squat so I call a program a sketch?"

I am being a bit bias here.  I like to dabble in programming now and again.  The idea of dabbling in sketching is not appealing.  Sketching implies to me drawing something, not writing something.

When there is already a perfectly good word: program for a program, why invent a new word...
It stems from Processing. Processing is what Wiring is based on, the "Arduino language". Processing is a language initially made for electronic art and visual processing. This is why they named it a sketch. To appeal to the non-programmer crowd.

Personally I find it quite clever. It abstracts all the confusing stuff non programmers have a hard time grasping and lowers the barrier of entry, all this while really not sacrificing too much of the performance higher level scripting languages might. The popularity and Arduino adoption speak for itself.

 The original Arduino project was an in-house development effort for an educational institution to allow artist/media students to utilize microprocessors into their design projects. Sketch was just a name that was familiar to the people the project was aimed at. The aim wasn't to turn artists into computer geeks, but rather see what they could do using a simple to use IDE. The fact that it turned into a very good entry point for anyone wishing to understand and utilize microcontrollers was an unplanned side-effect.

 Processing was just the IDE model they used, not the java version used to program simple window applications. Wiring was an existing project that just defined a lot of functions and libraries to help abstract some of the microcontroller details, like pin# rather then port name/bit position used in the machine code. That along with the gcc C/C++ compiler tool chain and AVRDUDE downloading tool meant the original Arduino team had relatively little code to create from new but rather just assemble and integrate existing open source software components. Open sourcing the hardware was their best rather accedental step that quickly lead to it's popularity. Clones and homebuilt version were available even soon after the start.

 So a lot of the success was just luck of the right idea, at the right time, at the right price that opened up access for a lot more people. They replaced the Basic Stamp idea and user base with a better solution.
No. Not quite the correct history. My post you quoted is correct. Your version is quite a bit off. I remember playing with Processing in the early 2000s for some quick graphing and the Sketchbook existed back then. The Arduino didn't start till some years later. In fact Wiring is what Arduino used from the start. Which was based on Processing.

Processing (source wikipedia)
Quote
Processing is an open source programming language and integrated development environment (IDE) built for the electronic arts, new media art, and visual design communities with the purpose of teaching the fundamentals of computer programming in a visual context, and to serve as the foundation for electronic sketchbooks. The project was initiated in 2001 by Casey Reas and Benjamin Fry, both formerly of the Aesthetics and Computation Group at the MIT Media Lab. One of the stated aims of Processing is to act as a tool to get non-programmers started with programming, through the instant gratification of visual feedback.

History of Arduino:
Quote
Arduino started in 2005 as a project for students at the Interaction Design Institute Ivrea in Ivrea, Italy. At that time program students used a "BASIC Stamp" at a cost of $100, considered expensive for students. Massimo Banzi, one of the founders, taught at Ivrea.[4] The name "Arduino" comes from a bar in Ivrea, where some of the founders of the project used to meet. The bar, in turn, has been named after Arduin of Ivrea, who was the margrave of Ivrea and King of Italy from 1002 to 1014.[5]
Colombian student Hernando Barragán created the Wiring development platform which served as the basis for Arduino. Following the completion of the Wiring platform, its lighter, less expensive versions[6] were created and made available to the open-source community; associated researchers, including David Cuartielles, promoted the idea.

Wiring existed few years before Arduino still:

Quote
Wiring is an open-source electronics prototyping platform composed of a programming language, an integrated development environment (IDE), and a single-board microcontroller. It was developed starting in 2003 by Hernando Barragán.

Massimo speaks about this quite often actually, so I was pretty sure I got it right.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 11:17:52 pm by Muxr »
 

Offline retrolefty

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2016, 11:14:59 pm »
The point of abstraction?

Writing One - Size - Fits - All code?
Poor understanding of the underlying structure?
Laziness?

 That can all come in time for the Arduino users that wish or need to move on, many do but many just want the results that can be had just minimum investment in time and funds. Most cell phone users don't understand the underlying structure of their handsets, so should they turn them in for not being worthy?

 

Offline retrolefty

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2016, 11:29:05 pm »
Quote
No. Not quite the correct history. My post you quoted is correct. I remember playing with Processing in the early 2000s for some quick graphing and the Sketchbook existed back then. The Arduino didn't start till some years later. In fact Wiring is what Arduino used from the start. Which was based on Processing.

 The original Processing (still avalible and used) is an IDE that used Java as it's fundamental underlining programming language. Arduino uses C/C++ as it's fundamental programming language and used a modified Processing IDE. Arduino uses a different tool chain, different programming language. You can't program an Arduino with the standard processing IDE.

Yes, they both refer the users source program as a 'sketch' but other then that they are different things. Wiring was just a collection of C/C++ functions and libraries again not a new or different language, it's C/C++ all the way.

 

 
 

Offline HAL-42b

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2016, 11:33:43 pm »
That can all come in time for the Arduino users that wish or need to move on, many do but many just want the results that can be had just minimum investment in time and funds. Most cell phone users don't understand the underlying structure of their handsets, so should they turn them in for not being worthy?

Those are end users. I'm not judging the end users.

I'm mainly pissed at code monkeys who go and re-invent the wheel instead of improving on the already existing wheel because they can't be arsed to understand it.
 

Offline Muxr

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2016, 11:39:20 pm »
Quote
No. Not quite the correct history. My post you quoted is correct. I remember playing with Processing in the early 2000s for some quick graphing and the Sketchbook existed back then. The Arduino didn't start till some years later. In fact Wiring is what Arduino used from the start. Which was based on Processing.

 The original Processing (still avalible and used) is an IDE that used Java as it's fundamental underlining programming language. Arduino uses C/C++ as it's fundamental programming language and used a modified Processing IDE. Arduino uses a different tool chain, different programming language. You can't program an Arduino with the standard processing IDE.

Yes, they both refer the users source program as a 'sketch' but other then that they are different things. Wiring was just a collection of C/C++ functions and libraries again not a new or different language, it's C/C++ all the way.
Semantics... Both Processing and Wiring are technically frameworks and development environments which abstract a lot of the setup tasks and features of their native ecosystems. Which is why I wrote "languages" in double quotes. They are actually often referred to as their own languages, even though under the hood Java and C++ respectively is accessible as you mentioned.

This of course is nothing new. A lot of languages live on top of other ecosystems: Scala, Groovy, Jruby, Jython... to name a few targeting the JDK for instance.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 11:42:25 pm by Muxr »
 

Offline retrolefty

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2016, 11:45:42 pm »
That can all come in time for the Arduino users that wish or need to move on, many do but many just want the results that can be had just minimum investment in time and funds. Most cell phone users don't understand the underlying structure of their handsets, so should they turn them in for not being worthy?

Those are end users. I'm not judging the end users.

I'm mainly pissed at code monkeys who go and re-invent the wheel instead of improving on the already existing wheel because they can't be arsed to understand it.

 Not sure what that means, but whatever.

 Arduino opens new doors for new users and needs not be a thorn for any existing professional programmer, they already know how to program microcontrollers with the tools they already own and use. The hobbyist world got a real gift with the Arduino project, that can't be denied. How long that lasts will depend on how Arduino progresses (very murky and messy future I'm afraid) over time and what new entry level platform may replace it in popularity someday. Arduino is not an end state but rather an entry state that allows one to stay or move on depending on their interests and needs.



 

Offline AlfBaz

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2016, 12:11:47 am »
Arduino opens new doors for new users and needs not be a thorn for any existing professional programmer...
I beg to differ. The proliferation of arduino users and their musings on the net, deteriorate the SNR of good documentation when searching for info on stuff the arduino folk like to do. Certain search phrases that use to yield a boat load of good heady documentation on the subject, mostly AN's from manufacturers, now bring up forum questions and descriptions from non-engineering arduino people. It's almost like a virus :o
 

Offline retrolefty

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2016, 12:16:21 am »
Arduino opens new doors for new users and needs not be a thorn for any existing professional programmer...
I beg to differ. The proliferation of arduino users and their musings on the net, deteriorate the SNR of good documentation when searching for info on stuff the arduino folk like to do. Certain search phrases that use to yield a boat load of good heady documentation on the subject, mostly AN's from manufacturers, now bring up forum questions and descriptions from non-engineering arduino people. It's almost like a virus :o

 Smacks of elitism. They post too much stuff on the internet, clog up E-bay, etc.  :-DMM

 

Offline sleemanj

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2016, 12:36:37 am »
deteriorate the SNR of good documentation when searching for info on stuff the arduino folk like to do

So add -arduino to your Google search term and Google will exclude it for you.
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Offline sleemanj

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2016, 12:46:58 am »
As for "sketch", it's just a word.  I have my degree in Computer Science, I've spent 16 years earning my way by programming, I hate to think how many lines of code I've written, many bajillions I'm sure, if somebody wants to call their program a "sketch", fine by me.

Frankly it's not that far from the truth in the Arduino IDE considering that it what you write will be augmented considerably by the pre-processor - your sketch gets fleshed out.

There is however one hideous error that I have seen new Arduinites make and needs to be stomped out the second you see it, calling a function a "void", it's understandable why they make that error, because all they have seen is void returning functions, but  I've even seen it in a couple of things aimed at beginners, saying things like "make a new void [....]", or "see in the void [....]".

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Offline Muxr

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2016, 12:49:33 am »
hah that's pretty cute, calling a function void. As someone who's programmed since mid 80s (software engineer is my day job) none of this stuff phases me, they can call it [sketch] what they want, little variety is fun. With Google, stackoverflow, github... etc everything is amazing now days.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 12:51:48 am by Muxr »
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2016, 03:54:14 am »
Arduino is for fast programming, with much foresight or planning, like sketching out something, vs painting it.

Programming implies deliberation, a typical trait unheard off by an arduino programmer, a sketcher, I guess?
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Offline ivaylo

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2016, 06:50:20 am »
@Muxr is right, this is where sketch came from in this context. No big deal, it's actually nice they kept it for historical purposes...
 

Offline AlfBaz

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2016, 12:08:44 pm »
So add -arduino to your Google search term and Google will exclude it for you.
For years I've been wondering how to exclude stuff from google searches.... and its that simple :palm:
 

Offline dannyf

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2016, 12:23:05 pm »
Quote
Certain search phrases that use to yield a boat load of good heady documentation on the subject, mostly AN's from manufacturers, now bring up forum questions and descriptions from non-engineering arduino people. It's almost like a virus :o

Seems to me you should blame your inability to use a search engine rather than people expressing their love for arduino.

Not an arduino user myself but I think their right to express should be defended.
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Offline tszaboo

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2016, 12:58:08 pm »
Quote
Certain search phrases that use to yield a boat load of good heady documentation on the subject, mostly AN's from manufacturers, now bring up forum questions and descriptions from non-engineering arduino people. It's almost like a virus :o

Seems to me you should blame your inability to use a search engine rather than people expressing their love for arduino.

Not an arduino user myself but I think their right to express should be defended.
No. When you are searching for a part number, and the first result is not the manufacturer's page, nor a supplier page, but Adafruit or Sparkfun or seed or whatever, that is just bad I'm afraid.

The sketch... I guess if it is called program or code, that would scare people away. Imagine like a linux web page, that is probably how electronics looks like for most people. Linux stuff is scary, I cannot stand on those pages for minutes. They use words that dont make sense.
 

Offline Circlotron

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2016, 01:23:31 pm »
10 DEFINE FLAWED $SYSTEM_A
20 UNDERSTAND FLAWED $SYSTEM_A POORLY
30 WRITE $ABSTRACTION_LAYER OVER $SYSTEM_A SO YOU WON'T HAVE TO UNDERSTAND $SYSTEM_A
40 IMPLEMENT $ABSTRACTION_LAYER POORLY
50 $SYSTEM_A = $SYSTEM_A + 1.00
60 GOTO 10
I think that is how governments preside over their subjects via various departments.
 

Offline AlfBaz

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2016, 02:08:28 pm »
Not an arduino user myself but I think their right to express should be defended.
Nice to see you defend others rights to express opinions, except, of course, those you don't agree with :scared:
 

Offline Bruce Abbott

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2016, 11:25:34 pm »
I'm mainly pissed at code monkeys who go and re-invent the wheel instead of improving on the already existing wheel because they can't be arsed to understand it.
If it's easier for them to reinvent the wheel rather than understand the documentation, maybe the documentation isn't that understandable.


 

Offline Rerouter

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2016, 01:37:58 am »
So as yet another self taught programmer, why is void not recommended for declaring a function, I picked up on hints searching around, mainly to do with the constructor, however no clear cut "Never do this" stuff,
 

Offline sleemanj

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2016, 04:28:54 am »
void is perfectly proper for declaring the return type of a function that returns nothing (in C/C++ at least that is).

My comment was about people who don't know the word "function" and instead use the word "void" as if "void" was the word "function".  Yes.  These people exist.
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Offline autobot

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Re: Rose by any other name would smell as sweet
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2016, 08:27:35 pm »
I want both a real IDE (with debugger of course) but still having simple APIs and examples to get started. I wish it[arduino] would grow a little more advanced while not forgetting its beginner-friendly roots.

Recently they've done just that:

Image of "visual micro" :
http://electronics360.globalspec.com/images/assets/146/6146/IHS-151125-ArduinoSoftwareTools_Figure_-_Visual_Micro_DebugScreen.docx.jpg

Article:

http://electronics360.globalspec.com/article/6146/arduino-goes-pro

« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 08:38:30 pm by autobot »
 


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