Author Topic: (SOLVED/ANSWERED)Why NOT use an Arduino for professional project?  (Read 25177 times)

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Offline tpowell1830Topic starter

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Re: Why NOT use an Arduino for professional project?
« Reply #125 on: May 22, 2018, 08:03:15 pm »
Computer programmers often write systems that only have one copy in use, by one client. Consulting engineers of any kind (mechanical, electrical) as well. Not to mention architects.

You're right.  The diversity is enormous and there are lots of different cases. May be my generalization went too far.

For example, industrial automation often uses PLCs, which are way more expensive and inefficient than Arduino. The economics of this is totally different than designing products for sale. Arduino would be a cost saver, if only Arduino could get regulatory approval.

Regulatory approval is unnecessary in most cases, maybe in Canada you have to have it? I have designed products used in Canada before and not even asked once if it was 'approved'. We are talking about professional engineering of products/projects, but I guess many are in the paradigm of thinking in terms of consumer based, high production products.

Also, the original question had to do mainly with the software, and I think that has been covered a little, although I don't have a clear idea of why the Arduino software is not 'professional' when it will do the job. I keep hearing comments talking about it being slow, libraries are bad, licensing issues, but I have clearly stated that these 'WILL do the job', and in the solutions that I would be involved in, I have no problem handing over the software, libraries, anything that has to do with software. I would even give the recipient of the solution a couple of USB cables if they asked for them. This would all be in the cost of the solution that I would charge them.

The kind of solution that I am talking about would involve a company that has a problem that needs solving and have contracted me to provide a solution. If the Arduino is one of the products in that solution and will do the job, I haven't heard any arguments or logic that would stop me from utilising the Arduino, even an Arduino Uno if needed. The company isn't paying me for the Arduino, per se, but a solution to their problem that for whatever reason, they did not have the means or time to solve. If I was to use any product in the solution, I would set it up as a test for few months to insure that there were no issues. The price is in the solution, not the product (Arduino). If after a reasonable time this was satisfactory to the customer, then I would install this on all affected machines or situations as needed, once the authorities of the company agree that the solution is working satisfactorily. This is when I would give them the software and training or whatever they requested, as long it is in the pervue of the original agreement. Then give the maintenance people training on how to load the software if requested. This doesn't mean that some engineer couldn't come along and figure out how the solution works and incorporate into future machines/situations, this company owns the solution and we are done. This usually doesn't happen because engineers/employees of companies like this are way too busy taking care of their part of their duties at the company to sort this out. But, if they do this, I don't see a problem because this company asked us for a solution, we provided the solution and we will probably be asked to fix other issues they may have in the future, win, win.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 08:05:05 pm by tpowell1830 »
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Offline ez24

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Re: Why NOT use an Arduino for professional project?
« Reply #126 on: May 22, 2018, 09:28:19 pm »
From another post - it is bad to put "arduino" on a resume.
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Online westfw

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Re: Why NOT use an Arduino for professional project?
« Reply #127 on: May 22, 2018, 09:42:03 pm »
Quote
I have been using the FT232rl for the past decade. It is sort of, well, just works, so why replace it? What is a more modern option? I am not arguing, I really want to know.
FT232 used to be one of the few "it just works" Serial/USB parts - good drivers, good customization options, somewhat readily available...  But that was more than a decade ago; now it's sort-of like the PIC16F84; still appears widely, but no longer a clear winner by most measures.

The most obvious replacement is the newer parts from FTDI - FT230x and FT231x.  Smaller than the FT232, and less than half the price (~$2.) Sparkfun's RedBoard uses the FT231x.  There is also the CP2102/CP2104 (now from SiLabs; used to be Cypress?)   Adafruit and NodeMCU seem to like these.

There's the CH340 stuff from China, and a myriad of "small USB-capable microcontrollers with USB/Serial Code" (MCP222x from Microchip is some sort of pre-programed PIC18, the ATmega16u2 used by official Arduinos, etc) (actually, I don't recommend a chip whose firmware you need to write and support yourself.)

And then there are all the modules.  I suppose a "true professional should never use a pre-made modules when they could just buy chips and put them on their own board.", but...  I've been plunking these down on some recent projects, and they seem ... pretty wonderful.
 
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Offline NorthGuy

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Re: Why NOT use an Arduino for professional project?
« Reply #128 on: May 22, 2018, 09:53:46 pm »
The kind of solution that I am talking about would involve a company that has a problem that needs solving and have contracted me to provide a solution. If the Arduino is one of the products in that solution and will do the job, I haven't heard any arguments or logic that would stop me from utilising the Arduino, even an Arduino Uno if needed. The company isn't paying me for the Arduino, per se, but a solution to their problem that for whatever reason, they did not have the means or time to solve. If I was to use any product in the solution, I would set it up as a test for few months to insure that there were no issues. The price is in the solution, not the product (Arduino). If after a reasonable time this was satisfactory to the customer, then I would install this on all affected machines or situations as needed, once the authorities of the company agree that the solution is working satisfactorily. This is when I would give them the software and training or whatever they requested, as long it is in the pervue of the original agreement. Then give the maintenance people training on how to load the software if requested. This doesn't mean that some engineer couldn't come along and figure out how the solution works and incorporate into future machines/situations, this company owns the solution and we are done. This usually doesn't happen because engineers/employees of companies like this are way too busy taking care of their part of their duties at the company to sort this out. But, if they do this, I don't see a problem because this company asked us for a solution, we provided the solution and we will probably be asked to fix other issues they may have in the future, win, win.

Of course, if your clients are happy with Arduino, it is nothing wrong with it.

With about the same amount of effort you could've created a little custom PCB which fits perfectly in a little box (or wherever it is supposed to fit into) with a set of (possible custom) connectors which let you connect it to whatever it needs to be connected, as well as LEDs, buttons etc. Wouldn't it make your service better?
 

Offline NorthGuy

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Re: Why NOT use an Arduino for professional project?
« Reply #129 on: May 22, 2018, 10:57:12 pm »
I've been plunking these down on some recent projects, and they seem ... pretty wonderful.

Very cheap. When capacitors get completely extinct (if not already), you can buy these to mine capacitors  :-DD
 

Offline Seph.b

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Re: Why NOT use an Arduino for professional project?
« Reply #130 on: May 22, 2018, 11:24:09 pm »

Of course, if your clients are happy with Arduino, it is nothing wrong with it.

With about the same amount of effort you could've created a little custom PCB which fits perfectly in a little box (or wherever it is supposed to fit into) with a set of (possible custom) connectors which let you connect it to whatever it needs to be connected, as well as LEDs, buttons etc. Wouldn't it make your service better?

Sound exactly like my situation. Clients would be fine with whatever works, but for a little bit of extra effort upfront I can do as you describe. The bonus is subsequent builds are way faster, easier, and less prone to mistakes because most of the wiring is replaced by the PCB.
 

Offline tpowell1830Topic starter

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Re: Why NOT use an Arduino for professional project?
« Reply #131 on: May 23, 2018, 12:16:30 am »
The kind of solution that I am talking about would involve a company that has a problem that needs solving and have contracted me to provide a solution. If the Arduino is one of the products in that solution and will do the job, I haven't heard any arguments or logic that would stop me from utilising the Arduino, even an Arduino Uno if needed. The company isn't paying me for the Arduino, per se, but a solution to their problem that for whatever reason, they did not have the means or time to solve. If I was to use any product in the solution, I would set it up as a test for few months to insure that there were no issues. The price is in the solution, not the product (Arduino). If after a reasonable time this was satisfactory to the customer, then I would install this on all affected machines or situations as needed, once the authorities of the company agree that the solution is working satisfactorily. This is when I would give them the software and training or whatever they requested, as long it is in the pervue of the original agreement. Then give the maintenance people training on how to load the software if requested. This doesn't mean that some engineer couldn't come along and figure out how the solution works and incorporate into future machines/situations, this company owns the solution and we are done. This usually doesn't happen because engineers/employees of companies like this are way too busy taking care of their part of their duties at the company to sort this out. But, if they do this, I don't see a problem because this company asked us for a solution, we provided the solution and we will probably be asked to fix other issues they may have in the future, win, win.

Of course, if your clients are happy with Arduino, it is nothing wrong with it.

With about the same amount of effort you could've created a little custom PCB which fits perfectly in a little box (or wherever it is supposed to fit into) with a set of (possible custom) connectors which let you connect it to whatever it needs to be connected, as well as LEDs, buttons etc. Wouldn't it make your service better?

I really don't understand why everyone is wanting to build an extra board when the Arduino "WILL DO THE JOB". It will cost more money and unnecessary time getting a PCB designer to design a board, order it and the parts, test it to see if the designer did it right and then assemble it. How is this better?
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Offline Dubbie

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Re: Why NOT use an Arduino for professional project?
« Reply #132 on: May 23, 2018, 12:47:23 am »

I really don't understand why everyone is wanting to build an extra board when the Arduino "WILL DO THE JOB". It will cost more money and unnecessary time getting a PCB designer to design a board, order it and the parts, test it to see if the designer did it right and then assemble it. How is this better?

Because it is exceedingly rare that a project involves just a solo arduino. usually, you have a bunch of other components and ICs. If you are connecting it all together with wires and other breakout boards, you can with very little effort replace all that mess with a PCB. and if you're going to the trouble of putting in a footprint for an arduino, why not just put the footprint for the AVR uC instead?
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Why NOT use an Arduino for professional project?
« Reply #133 on: May 23, 2018, 12:54:02 am »
Don't most engineers who are designing an electronic product do the board layout themselves anyway? Everything I've designed I did end to end, but then EE has never been my day job. I've taken shortcuts and built a few one-offs with Arduino nano clones and Chinese modules but if I think there's any chance I might want more than one I pretty much always lay out a custom board for the whole thing. It makes assembly easier not having to connect a bunch of stuff together with wires.
 

Offline JaspaJami

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Re: Why NOT use an Arduino for professional project?
« Reply #134 on: May 23, 2018, 06:16:33 am »
And then there are all the modules.  I suppose a "true professional should never use a pre-made modules when they could just buy chips and put them on their own board.", but...  I've been plunking these down on some recent projects, and they seem ... pretty wonderful.
I think those are excellent when you dont want leave usb port to project. So you just program it with that and plug it away.

Offline wraper

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Re: Why NOT use an Arduino for professional project?
« Reply #135 on: May 23, 2018, 08:37:37 am »

Of course, if your clients are happy with Arduino, it is nothing wrong with it.

With about the same amount of effort you could've created a little custom PCB which fits perfectly in a little box (or wherever it is supposed to fit into) with a set of (possible custom) connectors which let you connect it to whatever it needs to be connected, as well as LEDs, buttons etc. Wouldn't it make your service better?

Sound exactly like my situation. Clients would be fine with whatever works, but for a little bit of extra effort upfront I can do as you describe. The bonus is subsequent builds are way faster, easier, and less prone to mistakes because most of the wiring is replaced by the PCB.
It does not. It's basically a freaking breakout board. You will have basically the same amount of wiring, except few extra pins for xtal and AVCC.
 

Offline David Chamberlain

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Re: Why NOT use an Arduino for professional project?
« Reply #136 on: May 23, 2018, 08:48:00 am »

Of course, if your clients are happy with Arduino, it is nothing wrong with it.

With about the same amount of effort you could've created a little custom PCB which fits perfectly in a little box (or wherever it is supposed to fit into) with a set of (possible custom) connectors which let you connect it to whatever it needs to be connected, as well as LEDs, buttons etc. Wouldn't it make your service better?

Sound exactly like my situation. Clients would be fine with whatever works, but for a little bit of extra effort upfront I can do as you describe. The bonus is subsequent builds are way faster, easier, and less prone to mistakes because most of the wiring is replaced by the PCB.
It does not. It's basically a freaking breakout board. You will have basically the same amount of wiring, except few extra pins for xtal and AVCC.

Yeah it's a bit like how my laptop is just breakout board for my fingers and a USB mouse and keyboard :)

I very much doubt NorthGuy or Seph.b were simply talking about making a direct clone of an Arduino.
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Why NOT use an Arduino for professional project?
« Reply #137 on: May 23, 2018, 09:14:35 am »
I very much doubt NorthGuy or Seph.b were simply talking about making a direct clone of an Arduino.
What arduino pcb offers besides breaking out pins compared to bare MCU? Basically nothing if you attach it to another custom PCB anyway. Only that you now also need additional connectors.
 

Offline David Chamberlain

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Re: Why NOT use an Arduino for professional project?
« Reply #138 on: May 23, 2018, 09:51:36 am »
I very much doubt NorthGuy or Seph.b were simply talking about making a direct clone of an Arduino.
What arduino pcb offers besides breaking out pins compared to bare MCU? Basically nothing if you attach it to another custom PCB anyway. Only that you now also need additional connectors.

Yes I think we're all saying the same thing here or else I'm completely misunderstanding you. If you are designing any sort of product (be it professional or unprofessional :) )it is very unlikely to consist ONLY of an Arduino (as pointed out by @Dubbie) you will have peripheral components that need to be connected to your MCU somehow... So why not just stick them all on a single PCB and save the cost of an Arduino in your BOM?

I've seen a few other posts here with the opposite view, along the lines of "It will cost more money and unnecessary time getting a PCB designer to design a board" (@tpowell1830).

Personally I think spinning a custom PCB for a prototype is a walk in the park, so much so that I would not bother considering (anymore because I once did) putting together a proof of concept with breadboard or hardwired prototype boards. That is NOT a knock on anyone who does it's just I find it a much faster and more reliable way to market.

 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Why NOT use an Arduino for professional project?
« Reply #139 on: May 23, 2018, 09:58:28 am »
it is very unlikely to consist ONLY of an Arduino (as pointed out by @Dubbie) you will have peripheral components that need to be connected to your MCU somehow... So why not just stick them all on a single PCB and save the cost of an Arduino in your BOM?

Yep.

Personally I think spinning a custom PCB for a prototype is a walk in the park, so much so that I would not bother considering (anymore because I once did) putting together a proof of concept with breadboard or hardwired prototype boards. That is NOT a knock on anyone who does it's just I find it a much faster and more reliable way to market.

If you're making more than two of anything then a PCB will save you hours of work. Stripping little jumper cables and soldering them to Arduinos takes hours. Not to mention all the mistakes and rework involved.

It's madness NOT to make a PCB unless you need it yesterday and can't afford the three week turnaround time of a cheap PCB maker.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 10:00:29 am by Fungus »
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Why NOT use an Arduino for professional project?
« Reply #140 on: May 23, 2018, 10:18:14 am »
Definitely agree.

Plus you can do 30 minute turnaround on boards by hand if you want with some practice. This one is done with an etch resist marker and ferric chloride. Looks like shit but it works for a prototype but it's good when you want to test a portion of the system before committing to getting a board made for something that might not work...

 

Offline David Chamberlain

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Re: Why NOT use an Arduino for professional project?
« Reply #141 on: May 23, 2018, 10:35:41 am »
 :-+ thats one serious ground plane
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Why NOT use an Arduino for professional project?
« Reply #142 on: May 23, 2018, 10:59:14 am »
:-+ thats one serious ground plane

And I'm not sure the solder "mask" is supposed to be made with actual solder.

 

Offline bd139

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Re: Why NOT use an Arduino for professional project?
« Reply #143 on: May 23, 2018, 11:03:04 am »
Solder mask is a luxury for production :D
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Why NOT use an Arduino for professional project?
« Reply #144 on: May 23, 2018, 11:08:48 am »
:-+ thats one serious ground plane

And I'm not sure the solder "mask" is supposed to be made with actual solder.
Consider it as HASL  :). Exposed copper will corrode over time, also it's easier to solder pre-tinned copper.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Why NOT use an Arduino for professional project?
« Reply #145 on: May 23, 2018, 12:03:37 pm »
That's basically the reason to do it. Flux pen the bastard then run the iron over it until all the copper is gone, then clean it, then stuff the parts on.

Incidentally most of the parts on that board were actually also nicked out of an old HP 54602B scope that was BER. Prototypes are cheap!
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 12:07:27 pm by bd139 »
 

Offline Gibson486

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Re: Why NOT use an Arduino for professional project?
« Reply #146 on: May 23, 2018, 02:02:33 pm »
Quote
I have been using the FT232rl for the past decade. It is sort of, well, just works, so why replace it? What is a more modern option? I am not arguing, I really want to know.
FT232 used to be one of the few "it just works" Serial/USB parts - good drivers, good customization options, somewhat readily available...  But that was more than a decade ago; now it's sort-of like the PIC16F84; still appears widely, but no longer a clear winner by most measures.

The most obvious replacement is the newer parts from FTDI - FT230x and FT231x.  Smaller than the FT232, and less than half the price (~$2.) Sparkfun's RedBoard uses the FT231x.  There is also the CP2102/CP2104 (now from SiLabs; used to be Cypress?)   Adafruit and NodeMCU seem to like these.

There's the CH340 stuff from China, and a myriad of "small USB-capable microcontrollers with USB/Serial Code" (MCP222x from Microchip is some sort of pre-programed PIC18, the ATmega16u2 used by official Arduinos, etc) (actually, I don't recommend a chip whose firmware you need to write and support yourself.)

And then there are all the modules.  I suppose a "true professional should never use a pre-made modules when they could just buy chips and put them on their own board.", but...  I've been plunking these down on some recent projects, and they seem ... pretty wonderful.

Thanks! My boards will enjoy the extra space!
 

Offline NorthGuy

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Re: Why NOT use an Arduino for professional project?
« Reply #147 on: May 23, 2018, 02:12:27 pm »
It does not. It's basically a freaking breakout board. You will have basically the same amount of wiring, except few extra pins for xtal and AVCC.

When you make your own PCB, there's no reason to copy Arduino. Making your own PCB gives you freedom of choice.

There are gazillions of different MCUs on the market. Each has a different set of periphery. If you select an MCU which has the set of periphery best suitable for your project, you will need less external "modules", which reduces BOM count and thus makes PCB design simpler (and the PCB itself smaller).

Moreover, selecting a good MCU for the job will simplify your software design, which means less time spent programming and less time spent debugging.

 

Offline wraper

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Re: Why NOT use an Arduino for professional project?
« Reply #148 on: May 23, 2018, 02:17:01 pm »
It does not. It's basically a freaking breakout board. You will have basically the same amount of wiring, except few extra pins for xtal and AVCC.

When you make your own PCB, there's no reason to copy Arduino. Making your own PCB gives you freedom of choice.

There are gazillions of different MCUs on the market. Each has a different set of periphery. If you select an MCU which has the set of periphery best suitable for your project, you will need less external "modules", which reduces BOM count and thus makes PCB design simpler (and the PCB itself smaller).

Moreover, selecting a good MCU for the job will simplify your software design, which means less time spent programming and less time spent debugging. Last time I designed with AVR was in 2015 with Attiny24A. And that was just a small update of previous design with minor FW modification.
That was said about the case when you want to implement arduino like hardware on your own board. If you go away from it, of course you can make more suitable choice of MCU and surrounding components. I don't think I'll ever use AVR in my future designs. Last time I designed circuit with AVR was in 2015 with Attiny24A. And that was just a small update of previous design with minor FW modification. Basically I put the same circuit on PCB of different shape.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 02:25:22 pm by wraper »
 

Offline Seph.b

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Re: Why NOT use an Arduino for professional project?
« Reply #149 on: May 23, 2018, 03:44:48 pm »

Of course, if your clients are happy with Arduino, it is nothing wrong with it.

With about the same amount of effort you could've created a little custom PCB which fits perfectly in a little box (or wherever it is supposed to fit into) with a set of (possible custom) connectors which let you connect it to whatever it needs to be connected, as well as LEDs, buttons etc. Wouldn't it make your service better?

Sound exactly like my situation. Clients would be fine with whatever works, but for a little bit of extra effort upfront I can do as you describe. The bonus is subsequent builds are way faster, easier, and less prone to mistakes because most of the wiring is replaced by the PCB.
It does not. It's basically a freaking breakout board. You will have basically the same amount of wiring, except few extra pins for xtal and AVCC.

How is that a breakout board? It is a PCB with all of the extra components and connectors needed for the full project. All of the wires that are not plugging into a connector are replaced by TRACES on the PCB. Plus I get the advantage of being able to accomplish mechanical tasks to on the board and include silkscreen to document/brand it. 

It is not like I am just pinning out all of the atmegas pins and making my own crappier version of an arduino and then still putting 100 wires on it.
 


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