Deleting posts

[xrunner]

Example  ?

Where have you provided examples of your claims Mike? Do not demand of others what you yourself cannot provide.

[Rufus]

Why ban deleting, but allow editing which can essentially give the same result as far as the information is concerned?

What Sync said - editing leaves an indication that something was there and when it was removed. I would expect people to leave some kind of explanation for the deleting edit.

[Fraser]

I made a big mistake in the E4 useful information thread. I tested a Meniscus lens on a simulator and then on a real thermal camera but not an E4. The results showed that the concave side should face the target and I detailed such in the 'how to' post. Some weeks later another member proved that the lens behaved very differently on the E4 as has a different primary lens. I added an update to my original post making it clear that my first recommendation for lens orientation was in error. I don't mind admitting when I get things wrong and at least the newbies will read the post and see what occurred and not incorrectly install the lens. Far better than posting another message later in a thread and referring back to a 'locked' 'how-to' posting that will be for ever more incorrect. No ?

Take a look:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/flir-e4-the-useful-information-thread/msg339922/#msg339922

[xrunner]

Far better than posting another message later in a thread and referring back to a 'locked' 'how-to' posting that will be for ever more incorrect. No ?

No.

You simply do not know that people will know that the first post is the correct one to look at, when you might have a long list of comments based on wrong assumptions that people might or might not read. There's just no guarantee people will do as some of you expect and know that the first post is correct. And what of the people who don't correct first posts, but do it in the thread? It isn't a clear and logical way to run a forum. Are you going to make a rule that every first post has to be correct from now on. It just won't work.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Example  ?

Where have you provided examples of your claims Mike?

..err earlier in this thread. Please keep up.
 

Do not demand of others what you yourself cannot provide.

A lot of what you are claiming seems to be based on "what if?" scenarios.

I have already given one example, the E4 teardown thread, where ability to edit has been genuinely useful to a significant number of users, an Aurora has given another.
Here are another couple of examples of threads which have been made more useful by the ability to update information at the start 

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hantek-tekway-dso-hack-get-200mhz-bw-for-free/
OK it may not an ideal mechanism compared to some sort of formal thread-summarizing or post-quality filtering syste, but where it's done, it provides genuine benefit to significant numbers of users.

Again, can you show any actual examples of where the ability to edit posts has been detrimental to the quality of information available  to such an extent that it would be reasonable to restrict editing?
   

[Monkeh]

Jeez, 9 pages of this now..

Having used and run forums for some years, I think I can pretty safely say that it doesn't matter. Different people use forums different ways, and you can't account for all of them.

That said, I would never and have never disallowed editing of posts entirely.

[Fraser]

xrunner,

Very fair comment. This is why it is good to discuss these matters in an open way. I do see your point. I am not a heavy forum user and I am sure it shows. I usually work with data archives on  my home computer where I regularly update and correct where and when necessary. Forums are very different environments as you and others have detailed.

I will go with the flow on this topic but it has been very interesting reading all the same.

Bed is calling me (UK 2am) so off I must trot

TTFN

[mikeselectricstuff]

Far better than posting another message later in a thread and referring back to a 'locked' 'how-to' posting that will be for ever more incorrect. No ?

No.

You simply do not know that people will know that the first post is the correct one to look at, when you might have a long list of comments based on wrong assumptions that people might or might not read.

As with  anything on the net, it is up to the  reader to establish the accuracy or suitability of information they may find. Caveat Browsor.

There's just no guarantee people will do as some of you expect and know that the first post is correct.

There is rarely any guarantee of anything, ever.

And what of the people who don't correct first posts, but do it in the thread? It isn't a clear and logical way to run a forum. Are you going to make a rule that every first post has to be correct from now on. It just won't work.

Lots of rules don't work. People don't read rules. A Forum is not a clear and logical place. Nobody has the time to make it so. People expect that.

[A Hellene]

Dave,

For the sake of the argument, if you let a man born and raised in prison (without any sense of freedom because all he has ever known of is bondage in any sense and form*) make the rules for a group of people, what kind of society do you think he would create?

My proposal for the forum rules would be to be left open to the users discretion, even if that might create minor problems.

If you can restrict the threads deletion privilege (something that can be done only by a request to the moderators, perhaps), just let the regular members to point out any misbehaving users and prohibit the latter ones from having the standard set of privileges.
A self-regulated society of knowledgeable people is always a best-balanced one.

Regarding post deletions, I have found it very handy a few times when I hit the wrong button, and once when I posted a reply to the wrong thread(!).

Now, regarding posts editing, I am sure that you have already guessed what I was going to say!

After all, you said it yourself that, last time you checked it's running pretty smoothly.


-George

• * Are you familiar with Plato's Allegory of the Cave?
  
  In the end, the captives not only did oppose to and ridiculed their liberated fellow man (that, after he was released, ascended to and saw the real world, and returned back to the cave to release his fellow men from their delusions (their "chains") they were raised with) but they also felt that "[...] it was better not even to think of ascending; and if any one tried to loose another and lead him up to the light, let them only catch the offender, and they would put him to death" according to the translated script.
  
  Plato put it eloquently in one single sentence: 'It is about our human nature, whether it is enlightened or unenlightened.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Jeez, 9 pages of this now..

Having used and run forums for some years, I think I can pretty safely say that it doesn't matter. Different people use forums different ways, and you can't account for all of them.

Exactly. And people who insist they are right and everyone else is wrong just come over as arrogant dicks.
Night Night.

[sleemanj]

My opinion;

  Editing should be allowed, but
    1) the thread starter (and admins, mods) should be allowed to edit the first post always, this could potentially be a special "eternal editing" option given to a specific post by an admin/mod - the first post in many threads is the best place to put pertinent information about something which has evolved through the thread
    2) subsequent posts by any user should be given a short time-limit for edits, 5 to 10 minutes from the last edit/post creation, in order to fix up any obvious flubs, typos, brain farts that one notices when they re-read what they posted

  Deletion should be not be allowed except within the editing window, or by special request to admin/mods in which case the post(s) should just be flagged (not obliterated) and displayed as "post deleted" in the thread.

I have no idea if SMF supports these, if it doesn't, it should.

[xrunner]

I really gotta cook din din, but let me be clear for those who are skimming.

All I am saying is that posts should not be edited forever - only in the case of clear personal danger or personal information was posted that was unintended.

Of course you should correct yourself - but you do that in the thread in forums, not by unending editing of the first post.

Sure, I'm being headstrong about this, but I know what I'm talking about. If I wasn't sure about what I'm saying then I'd say so and I'd be open to doing it otherwise. But who here would back off from what they think is the right way of dong things? Mike wouldn't. Dave wouldn't. And newsflash - neither do I 

[GeoffS]

I really gotta cook din din, but let me be clear for those who are skimming.

All I am saying is that posts should not be edited forever - only in the case of clear personal danger or personal information was posted that was unintended.

Of course you should correct yourself - but you do that in the thread in forums, not by unending editing of the first post.

Surprisingly, I agree with you 
A limited (reasonable) time  to edit posts after which no editing or deletion allowed.

[xrunner]

Surprisingly, I agree with you 
A limited (reasonable) time  to edit posts after which no editing or deletion allowed.

Well my rice is cooking so I have a minute ...

GeoffS, I think I might have solution to this first post editing making-sure-it-is-correct issue that would appeal to the powers that be. I will post it tomorrow, provided the thread isn't locked by that time. 

[pomonabill221]

I did post on the e4 teardown thread a rather simple question, and was torn apart by another member for being lazy or "yoda mode on" .... turns out that the member that tore me apart confused me with someone else and didn't take the time to publicly apologize for the snappy post, but just removed it.  This was, or course after the post had been read by others.

I did receive a helpful post from another member and I thanked him for his help.... it is always a good idea to acknowledge a helpful reply!

*grin* I recognize the two in question.

I have since wanted to ask another question AFTER using the search function to no avail, but will not because of the hostility by some people.... it just isn't worth it!  These forums are supposed to be HELPFUL... I feel if someone doesn't think they can help, and decide to be nasty... DON'T POST ANYTHING AT ALL!!

Nah, don't let that one incident stop you. You can always just politely ignore the nasty responses.

If I recall the situation correctly, did you try the suggested telnet commands, and did that give you the result you were looking for?

Well it did upset me somewhat, but after thinking about it and realizing that it shouldn't upset me too much, I did get over it and my life is going on!

Yes, I have been "playing around" with telnet/rset with the recommendations that you gave me, and other than finding that I need to leave out the "int32" entry, I have been trying different mbox sizes, and finding that it works great!  Thank You!
When I leave the "int32" portion in, rset returns "returned bad data" so I tried leaving out the int32 and it worked!!!!

Now I just want to make my changes permanent....
I even tried the show dead pixels... worked first time, then was able to shut it off without restarting.  VERY interesting and informative to see the dead pixels!

Hey, I just edited this post! 

[EEVblog]

Because you don't really know what's correct or what isn't anyway. You are making a HUGE assumption - that people make valid corrections.

Come on, you know very well that in the vast majority of cases people will fix corrections and get it right. If it's wrong people can tell them and they can fix it again. Ultimately it's almost always going to edit toward a more correct version. That human nature of people who contribute to these forums.

How do you know that? It just isn't something you can even prove is true.

So what?

People using a forum should know, or should be told if they don't, that the discussion flows from the first post to the last, and that ideas are changed and new information is presented as it goes on. Things are corrected and mistakes are made, that's the ebb and flow of a forum Dave.
That's WHAT A FORUM DOES/IS.

Yes, but it's also MORE than that!

It's a flow of discussion to follow and learn from, yes even the mistakes and how they are corrected by others. It's in the thread <--.
If you just want correct info up front just allow people their own Blogs with unlimited editing. I guess, hell I don't know, but that sounds like what you really want. It ain't a forum, but it would fullfill your desires.

People contribute to forums instead of starting their own blog, for many reasons. The social interaction, the learning from others, the instant feedback etc. etc. That social interaction draws peopel into using forums and sharing information that they otherwise wouldn't share. The result is that forums become defacto information references whether you like it or not.
Putting your fingers in your ears and crying that's not what forums are about is to deny the reality of the situation.

Of course you can run a forum and force it be that way if you want, but given that this forum has formed the other way, as a bit of an information resource, it would be wrong to make such a fundamental change.

[EEVblog]

You simply do not know that people will know that the first post is the correct one to look at

But lots of people do, and they can reliably point people who don't know back that that thread as the best central resource for the latest info.

[xrunner]

Oh Dave come on - you like arguing just as much as the next guy. I can  tell you are not wanting to consider I'm right because of the way you are responding. You are just spitting out arguments to bolster your position in spite of what I've said. Sure you can do that if you so desire, but it isn't a pretty sight in front of the forum.

[EEVblog]

Executive decision time.

1) No one has shown a really compelling case for why editing or deleting should be stopped over the proven benefits of always allowing editing, as has always been the case and people are used to on this forum.

2) It's about 50/50 on the poll to delete your own own posts (editing aside). No one has provided a really compelling reason for why editing should always be allowed, but not allow deletions. So the status quo should remain here.

3) The poll on being able to edit your own posts is vastly in favour of favour of editing forever. No contest.

So I will re-enable the option to delete your own posts as it's always been.
But as always, I am open to compelling reasons. But given that none have been presented so far, I don't expect any to come along.
Remember, this is not a new forum, it is well established forum that has always allowed editing and deletion.

[EEVblog]

Oh Dave come on - you like arguing just as much as the next guy.

Yes, I do.

I can  tell you are not wanting to consider I'm right because of the way you are responding. You are just spitting out arguments to bolster your position in spite of what I've said.

Wrong. You have simply not provided a compelling case to change the forum from the way it's ways worked. The end.
And considering that you are essentially the only one screaming hard on this front, there is even less weight there.
WTF did you think I made the trial change for and started this thread for if my intention was not to consider the other case? Do you think I'm just trolling for arguments?

[xrunner]

Geez dude I was willing to let it die after your decision above but fuck it - if you want to keep it on, I'm game, but that just proves my point. You love to argue and you are as bull headed as I seem to you. You should be setting an example by your actions.

You are acting like a bully and should not belittle members who are trying to honestly help. I'm not the least bit intimidated by you so knock it off.

Now, are you going to lock this mess or are you going to take it to 50 pages?

[EEVblog]

Geez dude I was willing to let it die after your decision above but fuck it - if you want to keep it on, I'm game, but that just proves my point. You love to argue and you are as bull headed as I seem to you. You should be setting an example by your actions.

I am.
I saw a potential issue on the forum, so I trialled a change and asked for discussion about it and added polls to get votes.
Then based on the feedback I made a decision to leave things as they have always been.

You are acting like a bully and should not belittle members who are trying to honestly help. I'm not the least bit intimidated by you so knock it off.

A bully because I clarified an incorrect assertion of my intentions on your part? 

Now, are you going to lock this mess or are you going to take it to 50 pages?

Nope, I'll continue the discussion, because I'm still open to compelling reasons why I should change the way for the forum works.

[xrunner]

I am.
I saw a potential issue on the forum, so I trialled a change and asked for discussion about it and added polls to get votes.
Then based on the feedback I made a decision to leave things as they have always been.

  Not those actions - the actions I'm talking about are the way you respond to people who disagree with you. It's a bullying sort of response.

A bully because I decided to leave things as they have always been based on the feedback? 

See above ...

Nope, I'll continue the discussion, because I'm still open to compelling reasons why I should change the way for the forum works.

I'm very disappointed with your attitude towards members who contribute here. I've mailed you an item for your show at no small expense, and also gave my time to design some graphics for this very forum, and yet you belittle me for taking a stand. You should not agree with me for doing those things, but for cripes sake, can I have a little respect? Why are you treating me this way?

[EEVblog]

I'm very disappointed with your attitude towards members who contribute here. I've mailed you an item for your show at no small expense, and also gave my time to design some graphics for this very forum, and yet you belittle me for taking a stand. You should not agree with me for doing those things, but for cripes sake, can I have a little respect? Why are you treating me this way?

I seriously do not understand why you are taking this so personally? 
I mean no disrespect with any post I make, if people feel that I am, then I'm sorry, but that is a mistaken assumption on their part about my intentions.
This is a discussion about a very important operational part of this forum, and I am simply expressing and explaining my views, as I always do, and if I see someone make a case that I think is flawed them I will try to explain why.

Not those actions - the actions I'm talking about are the way you respond to people who disagree with you. It's a bullying sort of response.

I don't see a single other person complaining about the way I've handled this or replied, if people have an issue with the way I've replied to them, please tell me publicly here (preferred) or in private if you prefer. In fact, (and don't take this as bullying, I'm just stating a fact) all I have gotten is private messages concerning your attitude in this thread.

[BravoV]

Then based on the feedback I made a decision to leave things as they have always been.

To be honest, I'm quite content now to know that there is a major difference at the underlying mechanism at the deleted posts, cause now its just moved to a reserved places not readable for normal members, not like previous condition where its gone forever, or needs lots of efforts to recover it.

Should any disputes or problems caused by post deletion, the Mods can always jump in to help by recovering it, thats all I need.

CMIIW

PS :
If I have a huge interest at certain threads/posts/posters, especially at hot thread, I always do "periodically" offline thread backup all the time, for example like at the E4 thread.