EEVblog Electronics Community Forum

I have seen a few cases here where people go back and edit the first post in a thread to something like "never mind.  I solved the problem." And deleting all the rest, which makes all the rest of the posts in the thread useless.  The answer to whatever problem you're facing might be there, but you can't tell because the original post was removed.

Ok, poll now added here...
Bare in mind that if someone asks me to delete their posts or even nuke their entire account and all posts, I never say no, it's their choice.

i have. lol, i may have been in on this one.

im not sure this actual post was the deciding one being talked about, but someone recently put a post in the beginners section asking about a certain o'scope, which was followed by a dickish response by someone bitching about how he/she was stupid because they didnt properly use the search first, to which i called him out on his asshole-edness.

Actually, the first response (no, it was not me) was right and you were wrong. That particular rubbish oscilloscope had been discussed in at least five threads, the response contained links. Maybe it even had been discussed ten times.

The guy asking was also not a newbie, he knows the forum for some time, and feels the need to bore us with his ham stories. He made a fuss about being treated so "badly" for his laziness. The thing is, all he managed is to annoy more people, the forum gets one feature less and he certainly ended up in a bunch of ignore lists. Great achievement.

There are legitimate reasons for deleting a post and its not always worth the hassle of calling upon a moderator to do so

According to the poll, the majority don't seem to think so?

If you're really upset with what you posted, you can still edit the post and delete all of the text, which preserves all other content.

+1
Too many people "mouth off" or behave unsociably, then when they get called up, just go back an erase it all,
and suddenly they're all clean again - then continue to do it, because they have the magic erase pen.
I also prefer sites where there is NO erase option, and edits only for a short period (or admin request).
I've been resorting to "saves" the last few weeks, including the E4 debacle. It's the only way I can keep track.

Having a limited window during which you can edit or delete posts is (I think)  a good thing and  standard on most (all?) of the vBulletin sites I frequent.
No such option in SMF

Of course, should Dave decide to re-allow user deletes, now that the recycle option is on, deleted posts are moved to a secret location and not actually removed from the system.

No.

Or only if you accidentally disclosed personally identifiable information you deem might be harmful, and then you should have to ask an Admin to help and explain it to them. Other than that, no, you posted it, you have to live with it. Besides, once posted, there is no guarantee it hasn't already been copied by anyone on the internet or parts quoted into other threads.

Think before posting. If you can't do that, then you should not be posting on forums.

You can go back and edit your posts so there is no need to delete them.   Just say in the edit you screwed up.

I have been SYSOP, Admin, moderator of forums and bulletin boards since the days of WWIV BBS systems. I always hate to see a forum where the user has the ability to delete their post or account.
I simply put a statement in the forum rules that all post and content of xxxx.com belong to xxx.com all rights reserved blah blah blah.  I am a member of several radio type forums and seen folks go off the deep end and delete every post they ever made. Tons of meaningful information gets removed that can never be revived.  Unless you have a back up ?

Just my opinion.

Having a limited window during which you can edit or delete posts is (I think)  a good thing and  standard on most (all?) of the vBulletin sites I frequent.
No such option in SMF

Ah, that would explain why it's all-or-nothing.

Quote from: GeoffS on December 30, 2013, 01:08:37 pm

Having a limited window during which you can edit or delete posts is (I think)  a good thing and  standard on most (all?) of the vBulletin sites I frequent.
No such option in SMF

Ah, that would explain why it's all-or-nothing.

Shouldn't be a time limit on editing - a good example is the colossal Flir E4 thread and similar scope hack threads, where it is useful to be able to update the first post to reflect the "state of the art" and link to significant posts so people don't need to trawl through 2500+ posts.
 

Speaking form years of experience running forums ...

There should be a time limit on editing posts. Make it a few hours or a day if you wish, but no limit on editing? Not a good idea at all.

Reason is, people may have already quoted the post, so editing the original days later can lead to confusing threads. Also, I've actually seen members get so pissed at another member, or the staff, that they want to delete all their posts in protest. Finding that they can't, they will go back and edit all their posts to blanks or like this -

"..."

As I said before, if a member makes a mistake and posts personal info that they find puts them in an awkward or dangerous situation, certainly the forum staff can take that into account and fix it for them. The Admin can edit any post at any time. But if you just make dumb posts and/or post wrong info, then to the first that's tuff sh*t, and to the second, post a correction post or thread to fix it.

How often does this happen? Most of the threads I have come across that seem a little discontinuous have usually been edited by a moderator and often at the disappointment of those involved in it. They modify it to suite their sensibilities yet the person that actually wrote the post can't edit/delete it to suite theirs?

The thing I'm finding most interesting is that the majority of people who are pro-banning the edit/deletion capability are pushing the high moral ground of "loss of valuable information" when in actual fact they have torn strips out of some nOOb for asking/demanding something stupid and they don't want their vitriol left standing in isolation.

It also seem that most of the arguments for banning have a punitive, self righteous, almost malicious overtone. This is simply a forum of like minded individuals talking about stuff. We are not involved in creating the worlds "suppository" (new Oz word, look it up... no, not there, on google) of all things electronic. Stop taking things so seriously and let people be... well, human.

I agree with "let people be well, human"!!!
Yes, some people could use the search function more (or at all), but the times I have used it, I came up with WAY more hits that were NOT what I was looking for (like "reset flir E4 ip address" or e4 ip address" or "e4 ip" or (many variants of the previous)), and NO relevant hits came back.

I did post on the e4 teardown thread a rather simple question, and was torn apart by another member for being lazy or "yoda mode on" .... turns out that the member that tore me apart confused me with someone else and didn't take the time to publicly apologize for the snappy post, but just removed it.  This was, or course after the post had been read by others.

I did receive a helpful post from another member and I thanked him for his help.... it is always a good idea to acknowledge a helpful reply!

I have since wanted to ask another question AFTER using the search function to no avail, but will not because of the hostility by some people.... it just isn't worth it!  These forums are supposed to be HELPFUL... I feel if someone doesn't think they can help, and decide to be nasty... DON'T POST ANYTHING AT ALL!!

EVERYONE MUST REMEMBER... that THEY had to start somewhere also!  and didn't know jack in the beginning and had to ask questions too!

Reason is, people may have already quoted the post, so editing the original days later can lead to confusing threads. Also, I've actually seen members get so pissed at another member, or the staff, that they want to delete all their posts in protest. Finding that they can't, they will go back and edit all their posts to blanks or like this -

In those rare cases a mod can simply delete those posts.
This forum can't do timed edits anyway AFAIK

LOL. You have never run a forum have you? Yea, let's remove the rules, Admins, and mods and "let people be... well, human". It's all good, just let people be human. Lets stop taking things so seriously. The place would be trashed in less than a month.

The forum has had lifetime editing, post deletion, and account deletion (along with all posts) since day one. Last I checked it's running pretty smoothly 

The forum has had lifetime editing, post deletion, and account deletion (along with all posts) since day one. Last I checked it's running pretty smoothly 

But that's not all that I said is it Dave? Didn't you forget something else? Do you have Admins and Mods doing something here? Go ahead and let people be people like the guy said, which means don't change anything they do on the forum, and tell me what happens.

Look, you can of course do whatever you want, but I've seen it all on forums, I know everything that can happen and I've seen every possible thing members can do a lot longer than you have I bet. Say, you missed my last suggestion on the search function issue too ...

Look, you can of course do whatever you want, but I've seen it all on forums, I know everything that can happen and I've seen every possible thing members can do a lot longer than you have I bet. Say, you missed my last suggestion on the search function issue too ...

I have just as much forum experience as you do, right back the BBS days 25+ years ago. I know enough to know there is no right answer here.

I have just as much forum experience as you do, right back the BBS days 25+ years ago. I know enough to know there is no right answer here.

I disagree, there is a right answer - you do not allow deletion and editing of posts forever. That's the right answer. Any other option disrupts the historical nature of the forum. That simply cannot be argued, because it's true. 

The No votes are winning anyway. I've explained my reasons, why don't some of the other no votes add some insight - if I keep this up I'm going to be in the doghouse with the Admin. 

Quote from: AlfBaz on December 30, 2013, 09:37:26 pm

How often does this happen?

How often does what happen? People editing their posts or people getting pissed and deleting content?

either/or as is evident from the from most of the responses thus far but you knew that already it's just cool to quote every sentence of a post you don't agree with and chuck in your 2 cents

Quote

Most of the threads I have come across that seem a little discontinuous have usually been edited by a moderator and often at the disappointment of those involved in it. They modify it to suite their sensibilities yet the person that actually wrote the post can't edit/delete it to suite theirs?

That's right, people should not be allowed to edit after a set period of time. The mods have to enforce any rules and so guess what? They have to modify threads and posts and piss people off sometimes. They have to make the forum run smoothly, the members don't do that.

An individual may not do that but other will soon make it apparent that their actions/behaviour is not appreciated. It's what society and its communities have been doing for centuries. Then again tyrants who know better have also tried to dictate terms to the masses for centuries also so nothing new here

Quote

The thing I'm finding most interesting is that the majority of people who are pro-banning the edit/deletion capability are pushing the high moral ground of "loss of valuable information" when in actual fact they have torn strips out of some nOOb for asking/demanding something stupid and they don't want their vitriol left standing in isolation.

Moral high ground? I don't think it's a moral high ground to just make sure what's written stays as it was originally posted. It can just lead to a mess if you allow editing any post you make for as long as the forum is running. This is publishing. Should a newspaper go back and edit what was published last week, even digitally? No, but they should be able to post retractions and updates. You just should not go mucking around with a historical record, and that's what a forum is, essentially. If you do that, it's no longer a reliable record of member's interactions.

Oh come on!
Is that really your main concern here or are you just doing precisely what I was inferring. Historical record, newspapers... It's a forum to come and have a chat with other like minded people, not an archive of various scientific research topics. Most of the threads where this happen are usually off topic and prone to beliefs and opinions. Its rare that a technical discussion is afflicted with these incidents and if it is an individual retracting or modifying their post will usually be to the benefit of that thread if it's considered a technical resource

Quote

Stop taking things so seriously and let people be... well, human.

LOL. You have never run a forum have you? Yea, let's remove the rules, Admins, and mods and "let people be... well, human". It's all good, just let people be human. Lets stop taking things so seriously. The place would be trashed in less than a month.

Not only had this forum being running for more years than I know, but it appears to have been running smoothly and growing in popularity just the way it is.
As for having never run a forum... who cares! That's not my job here and according to your moniker neither is it yours. We are here as participants, without which there is no forum. If self moderation doesn't work in a forum of semi-intelligent members then so be it, that's the collective outcome of it's members and the natural evolution of free thinking individuals. If you want to head down the path of a stringent rules driven forum then go start a electronics stack exchange

If a user can't delete a post but can edit it, then the information is permanently gone.
If  a user can delete a post then it is moved to the recycle bin where potentially it can be restored.

How long to keep deleted posts for and under what circumstances do you restore it?

If a user can delete a post and can edit it, and does in fact edit it, then the information is still permanently gone.

If a user can delete a post and cannot edit it, then this is a silly situation. Allow deletion, but not the rather useful edit button? Seriously? What happened to fixing typos, updating first posts to keep links to relevant topics up to date so new people can find information, etc?

If a user has deleted a post for what to them is a good reason, then they can just keep deleting the restored post(s) as there is no time limit to delete/edit.

In the cases where that really is an issue two easy solutions present themselves. 1) warn the user "OI! Don't do that (deleting) again, or else ...". or 2) pre-empt the deletion by restoring the post and then quote the post straight away.

Edit: used edit button. Oh yeah, and fixed a typo. Doh!

You don't disrupt the historical nature of the forum if a post is deleted soon after it is created.  The forum is a better place as a result. Sometimes I hit post to soon and I start over. Sometimes I realise I posted in the obviously wrong area. Sometimes I have second thought about whether I really wanted to be part of a thread.

I need to know how you define "soon" wilfred.

And IF there is no right answer here ...

Ah, but I said I did think there was a right answer, please review my posts. 

Having a limited window during which you can edit or delete posts is (I think)  a good thing and  standard on most (all?) of the vBulletin sites I frequent.
No such option in SMF

It appears that even moderators can make mistakes 

A bit more research reveals that you CAN in fact set a limit to the time frame in which you can edit a post. (Who'd have thought to read the manual?)
The time can be specified in minutes.

Please discuss amongst yourselves.

If you don't like that, then you might as well ask for articles to be submitted for publishing, and make sure they are not posting what they do not want, beforehand, then let people comment of them. i.e. you really do not want a forum after all, for that is what a forum is all about - the recording of the interactions of members for posterity. Yes, even their mistakes and stupidity, for all the world to see.

It's not a matter of what I like, it's entirely up to the forum owner.
What's important is a discussion of the pros and cons so Dave can make an informed decision.

It's not a matter of what I like, it's entirely up to the forum owner.
What's important is a discussion of the pros and cons so Dave can make an informed decision.

And that's just what I've been doing isn't it? 

Quote from: GeoffS on December 30, 2013, 11:45:34 pm

It appears that even moderators can make mistakes 
A bit more research reveals that you CAN in fact set a limit to the time frame in which you can edit a post. (Who'd have thought to read the manual?)

Yes, I should have checked instead of relying on memory, the option is there.
There does not however seem to be an option to enabled editing, but limit deleting to a set time.

Setting that to a few minutes would be a much nicer solution than disabling deletion.

A bit more research reveals that you CAN in fact set a limit to the time frame in which you can edit a post. (Who'd have thought to read the manual?)
The time can be specified in minutes.

Please discuss amongst yourselves.

Nice.

How about 7 minutes? That's long enough that the reasonable part of your brain has had adequate time to think "mmmh, maybe this was not such a good idea *delete*" and short enough that there statistically speaking are not loads and loads of replies to it. And no loads and loads of replies means that in the event of deletion there are not loads and loads of replies that suddenly are out of context.

For the other scenario of "but it's my post and I want to be able to remove the content a week after I posted it" I really suggest people can just use the edit button. That way the user's mission of "must delete content" is still completed, AND for the rest of the thread participants there is still enough coherence left because they can see the edited post. Seems a reasonably balanced solution to me, but that's just my opinion. 

I disagree Dave. I'm sorry, but if you keep telling me it's just my opinion that a forum is a record of the interactions of members for posterity that should not be tampered with, except in the case of rule violations, I'm going to keep telling you you are just plain wrong.

Fine, you've had your say.

You really do not want a forum at all if you think people should be able to delete and edit posts for as long as they want to.

Don't tell me what I do and do not want, I'll make up my own mind, thanks.

Anyway, I do think we both have an abundant supply of testosterone. 

Nope, you have a fixed opinion that simply will not change. But worse, you think your opinion is actually the be-all end-all right answer. Like there is only one obvious right answer to a question that is clearly (IMO) quite subjective.
That kinds of thinking works on an the atheist forum you run, when things are either true or they are not true, but it doesn't cut the mustard in this instance I'm afraid.

How about 7 minutes? That's long enough that the reasonable part of your brain has had adequate time to think "mmmh, maybe this was not such a good idea *delete*" and short enough that there statistically speaking are not loads and loads of replies to it. And no loads and loads of replies means that in the event of deletion there are not loads and loads of replies that suddenly are out of context.

I think it needs to be 12-24 hours. So if you post something dumb before you head to sleep, you can remove it when you wake up.

For the other scenario of "but it's my post and I want to be able to remove the content a week after I posted it" I really suggest people can just use the edit button. That way the user's mission of "must delete content" is still completed, AND for the rest of the thread participants there is still enough coherence left because they can see the edited post. Seems a reasonably balanced solution to me, but that's just my opinion. 

What if a user requests to close there account and have all their posts removed?
This has happened before, and I think it's their right to ask for that, so I always comply. Unlike some forums, I do have a clause that says the information you enter belongs me *insert evil laugh*
In which case, does it make sense not to allow post deletion at any time?

I'd put my vote in for 10 minutes, a nice even number.

But but but, 7 is a nice odd number. And prime to boot! Also, psychologically relevant and all that good shit!



My love for prime numbers aside, 10 minutes would do the trick as well.

Quote from: Fsck on December 30, 2013, 11:54:34 pm

I'd put my vote in for 10 minutes, a nice even number.

I think you'd want it longer than that to allow users to (for example) add attachments or provide additional information.
Several hours at least.
One woodworking forum I'm on allows a couple of days for editing.

my bad, all this "should we be allowed to delete our posts" has me reading edit as delete.

for editing: ideally no ability to remove = only to strike out. sort of like your lab books. (one line through the text) and no limit to addition. the changes should also be dated (and timed for a forum)

not sure if that's even possible though on a forum.

A forum is not a Blog, Twitter, or Facebook. It's a record of the interactions between members in an online community <-- this is important. It is for that reason that you do not want to let people delete their posts, or edit beyond a small courtesy window. If you do that, it changes the record of the interaction of the members forever.

I would argue that being able to keep information up to date by editing to correct errors or summarise very long threads is much more useful to more people than any occasional inconvenience or confusion arising from editing.
Why does it matter if the "record of interaction" changes ?
 Surely useful, accessible, up-to-date information is more important on a forum like this, which is known as a source of information and expertise on a technical subject.
I also have no doubt that an inability to edit will discourage some people from making valuable contributions out of concerns of potential issues with current or potential future employers, customers or colleagues. 

I would argue that being able to keep information up to date by editing to correct errors ...

But here's the problem: How are you going to make sure that that is in fact why they are editing a post?

I would argue that being able to keep information up to date by editing to correct errors or summarise very long threads is much more useful to more people than any occasional inconvenience or confusion arising from editing.
Why does it matter if the "record of interaction" changes ?
 Surely useful, accessible, up-to-date information is more important on a forum like this, which is known as a source of information and expertise on a technical subject.
I also have no doubt that an inability to edit will discourage some people from making valuable contributions out of concerns of potential issues with current or potential future employers, customers or colleagues.

I think I'm with Mike on this. These are some of the reasons why I've always allowed deleting and editing.

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff link=topic=24597.msg356814#msg356814

I would argue that being able to keep information up to date by editing to correct errors ...

But here's the problem: How are you going to make sure that that is in fact why they are editing a post?

You aren't. So what? Why is it a probolem?
Disabling a facility that most of the time is useful just in case someone "abuses" it seems rather stupid.

You aren't. So what? Why is it a probolem?

It's obvious even to the most casual user isn't it?

Disabling a facility that most of the time is useful just in case someone "abuses" it seems rather stupid.

No, it isn't "stupid Mike. People can post corrected info in any thread they want to without editing the past. I've already explained why it's a bad idea, there's no need to type the same thing over and over is there?

would make people who have constantly updated projects or guides a major pain.

And I think if the poll asked if people should be able to edit their own posts, I think the vast majority would say yes.
Essentially there are two separate issues here, but they are related, because if you allow editing of a post, why not deleting?
I'm having a hard time coming up with a really compelling reason...

As far as the functionality of the forum goes this seems to be yet another red herring.
You have years of empirical data on the forum's operation based on the, up 'til now, deletion paradigm and it doesn't take a genius to extrapolate what the forum will be like after the change.
Going the other way would be far more difficult because assumptions of chaos and "end of the world" scenarios would ensue.

Knowing what it's like now and imagining what it would be like after this change, what scenarios would rise that may be detrimental or advantageous. Would there be a noticeable difference to the average punter or is it yet another part of our lives that have had yet another freedom removed/restriction enforced.

If some piss-ant thread in the massive scheme of the world-wide-web becomes a little less intelligible because someone feels better by deleting their post then so be it.

If keeping "accurate historical"  records is so important then how hard would it be that the delete button doesn't delete the thread but changes the users name to anon or guest

Quote from: mrflibble on December 30, 2013, 11:53:00 pm

How about 7 minutes? That's long enough that the reasonable part of your brain has had adequate time to think "mmmh, maybe this was not such a good idea *delete*" and short enough that there statistically speaking are not loads and loads of replies to it. And no loads and loads of replies means that in the event of deletion there are not loads and loads of replies that suddenly are out of context.

I think it needs to be 12-24 hours. So if you post something dumb before you head to sleep, you can remove it when you wake up.

Mmmh, usually when it's something really dumb, you will get (or rather, I usually get) an internal reminder within that ~7 minute timespan. It basically (IMO) is about balancing what the poster of the to be deleted thread wants vs the rest of the thread participants.

You did plonk it out there in a public forum. If you notice it within a few minutes, okay just delete it, none the wiser. If after 12-24 hours people have already seen it and replied to it IMO it is nicer to not delete it. In that case the poster can still edit it and leave a one liner of "disregard old post, needed sleep" or some such.

Quote

For the other scenario of "but it's my post and I want to be able to remove the content a week after I posted it" I really suggest people can just use the edit button. That way the user's mission of "must delete content" is still completed, AND for the rest of the thread participants there is still enough coherence left because they can see the edited post. Seems a reasonably balanced solution to me, but that's just my opinion. 

What if a user requests to close there account and have all their posts removed?
This has happened before, and I think it's their right to ask for that, so I always comply. Unlike some forums, I do have a clause that says the information you enter belongs me *insert evil laugh*
In which case, does it make sense not to allow post deletion at any time?

In which case personally I would comply as well and do a delete all. Annoying, but such is life. And yes, it still does make sense to not allow post deletion at any time, even if you have as policy that you will comply to requests to nuke an entire account.

Even there you could make a script that 1) changes username to "anonymous deleted user" and 2) replace thread text with "removed upon user request". That way you still have a semblance of coherence in the thread and .... google can actually find something with the correct post number after a big nuke fest.

To clarify: with thread coherence I mean that after an alteration (delete or edit) other people don't get confused by things that are suddenly waaay out of context. I noticed on this and other forums that multiple deletes is a great way to add extra confusion. On the other hand the same number of edits (basically delete content, leave empty post) is significantly less confusing.

Another storm in a tea cup ?

Wow, there are some strong opinions on the matter here. As Dave LJ has highlighted, this forum runs pretty well withOUT any draconian measures in place. (I just edited this line ! <- )

I am in a position to comment on mass deletion as I had to carry out such in the E4 teardown thread recently. Maybe my reasons will explain why such is sometimes necessary but thankfully such is rare.

I posted in a thread that dealt with the teardown of a FLIR E4 thermal camera. The thread began as a simple reverse engineering exercise with which my employer would have no issues. I posted many technical comments on Thermal camera design. The thread then went off-piste and detailed how to hack the E4 with full details of the process. This was followed by requests for hacking information for greater frame rates. The thread had BECOME a 'how to hack a thermal camera' resource. My employer does not wish its employees to be involved in active discussion threads detailing the hacking of such devices. My comments were not the issue, my comments in a hacking thread were !

My response to the situation was to quickly delete all my posts in the E4 thread back to a date previous to the hacking event. I effectively removed myself from the hacking time line as I was not actually participating in such. In retrospect I could have changed the posts contents but that provides an index point to track the post in something like the way back machine ? I am no expert on forums and nowhere had I read that I could not delete my posts. Dave is all for freedom of speech and action, and that is what I exercised on that day. Not my finest hour but hey, we are all human and my actions caused no damage to the core topic. I would not wish this forum to become heavy on the rules and light on the fun. I doubt I will ever need to mass delete posts again as it was a very specific issue but I have to wonder how widespread this issue actually is and whether this is some sort of knee jerk reaction to a minor hiccup. Lets not get too anal over this. Some people love lots of rules, others do not. Apply the KISS principle I say 

Quote from: Fsck on December 31, 2013, 12:14:12 am

would make people who have constantly updated projects or guides a major pain.

And I think if the poll asked if people should be able to edit their own posts, I think the vast majority would say yes.
Essentially there are two separate issues here, but they are related, because if you allow editing of a post, why not deleting?
I'm having a hard time coming up with a really compelling reason...

personally, I prefer no restrictions on editing or deleting.
but if the issue of entire threads going poof due to the OP deletion concerns the majority, then I could personally live with that restriction.

The ability of the OP to keep up-to-date links at the start helps them find it.

Sure, if that's is what they are editing the post for. And what if they are making more mistakes than they are correcting? Plus you of course realize that all the quotes from any original posts that are unedited do not change? It just makes a mess of things Mike. Yea - I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about. Right, I know, I just make this up out of thin air.

Quote from: Fsck on December 31, 2013, 12:14:12 am

would make people who have constantly updated projects or guides a major pain.

And I think if the poll asked if people should be able to edit their own posts, I think the vast majority would say yes.
Essentially there are two separate issues here, but they are related, because if you allow editing of a post, why not deleting?
I'm having a hard time coming up with a really compelling reason...

ISTR this whole thing kicked off due to a post deletion resulting in a whole thread vanishing. If instead that had been "<post removed by user>" instead of complete disappearance, it may have been clearer. And would also help dispel any tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists mistaking deletion for censorship or removal by admin/moderation.

Why are you so hung up on it not being a historical record? What you want is not a forum, what you want is an error free sanitized list of information. That sure in Hell ain't what a forum is all about.

Perhaps not, but in the real world that is a part of what it becomes whether you like it or not. That I think is demonstrably true. And I'd hazard a guess that more people care about using it that way than it being some "historical record" of people bitching about this and that, complete with all their mistakes.
Do you really think most people who will visit say the Flir E4 thread care about who said what at what time to whom? No, they care about find the info about hacking their camera.

Surely you can at least concede there is some merit to allowing people to edit say their first post for that very reason?
If not, how do you propose that be handled? Is the useful info doomed to forever be spread over countless posts? Creating a new super post every time a new bit of info is added?
Or should any useful info once found on a forum be copied over to some information wiki instead?

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 31, 2013, 12:23:20 am

The ability of the OP to keep up-to-date links at the start helps them find it.

Sure, if that's is what they are editing the post for.

Which in almost all  cases it will be

And what if they are making more mistakes than they are correcting?

Others will spot it and point it out

Plus you of course realize that all the quotes from any original posts that are unedited do not change?

So what? 

It just makes a mess of things Mike. Yea - I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about. Right, I know, I just make this up out of thin air.

Very occasionally, maybe, but certainly not enough to aywhere near justify a change that would reduce the net usefulness of a forum that has been working just fine for years.
I'm sure there are forums where there have been genuine problems caused by editing. I don't think this is one of them.
However the ability to edit has demonstrably been of benefit to a significant number of users, and you've yet  to provide any convincing argument to change it.

Historical record ? That is something that I never considered this forum to be

To me as a member, it is a fun place to share knowledge. I don't get paid for the help I give and expect no payment or to be tied into any form of 'legal' agreement regarding who actually owns my Posts. Hell I have enough red tape and anal attitudes in my work place without it pervading eth EEVBlog forum.

If people are told that they lose all rights to their posts as it is a Historical (legal?) record of their views and comments, it kind of places a wet blanket on discussions. This is a place for free expression without fear (within legal bounds of course!)


Historical record of importance to mankind.....Nah ! that's getting too serious and grandiose for me 

Everyone has a right to have and share their views, both right and wrong. Lets keep this forum and fun and friendly place to be and not some starchy rule rich nightmare that is so common elsewhere on the NET. This is Aussie DAVE's place after all ..... cool and laid back 

Surely you can at least concede there is some merit to allowing people to edit say their first post for that very reason?

I don't think there would be any benefit to limiting edits to the first post.
For example, one of the links my first post on the E4 thread links to Taucher's menu hack post, which he maintains.

Historical record ? That is something that I never considered this forum to be

To me as a member, it is a fun place to share knowledge. I don't get paid for the help I give and expect no payment or to be tied into any form of 'legal' agreement regarding who actually owns my Posts. Hell I have enough red tape and anal attitudes in my work place without it pervading eth EEVBlog forum.

If people are told that they lose all rights to their posts as it is a Historical (legal?) record of their views and comments, it kind of places a wet blanket on discussions. This is a place for free expression without fear (within legal bounds of course!)


Historical record of importance to mankind.....Nah ! that's getting too serious and grandiose for me 

Everyone has a right to have and share their views, both right and wrong. Lets keep this forum and fun and friendly place to be and not some starchy rule rich nightmare that is so common elsewhere on the NET. This is Aussie DAVE's place after all ..... cool and laid back 

Exactly 

A poll on editing pots is here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/should-users-be-able-to-edit-their-own-posts/

So how does giving a set time period for editing prevent all this fun we're having right now?

This has been explained. It allows you to go back and fix/add information later, because this forum (like it or not) is used an an information resource.

Everyone has a right to have and share their views, both right and wrong.

As I've said, I think it's clear there is no right or wrong answer here, it is a very subjective on the way you view the forum and your own posts.
Anyone who thinks there is a single right answer here is clearly wrong 

I voted for not allowing deletion but I don't feel strongly about it.
I think time limited editing would be a bad idea.

And that's the crux of it I think. What's the difference between the two?
Why ban deleting, but allow editing which can essentially give the same result as far as the information is concerned?

And that's the crux of it I think. What's the difference between the two?
Why ban deleting, but allow editing which can essentially give the same result as far as the information is concerned?

Deleted posts vanish. That can be confusing. An edited post is still there. Maybe without content.
Is it possible that the forum software can inserted a message that there was a deleted post?

And that's the crux of it I think. What's the difference between the two?
Why ban deleting, but allow editing which can essentially give the same result as far as the information is concerned?

Editing => less confusion. Plus post numbers stay the same, so a google search will still find the correct posts after a user decides to scrub all his posts in a thread.

Take for example the Flir E4 thread. After Aurora deleted all his posts, when then searching for a certain topic through google you would consistently end up on the wrong page. It took a while before the google bot had crawled the thread again, after which search was back to usable again. Not the end of the world, but instead of deleting all posts, just editing those posts and leaving a simple "content deleted by user" would have been nicer IMO.

Isn't the ability to edit and update information at the heart of the very popular Wiki database. Yes it can be corrupted with incorrect information, but at least it may be corrected when the error is discovered.

As Mike has stated, it can be great to go back and add useful additional information to a Post to help newbies who stumble upon it. I started the E4 Useful information thread and regularly update certain posts like the serial number VS firmware post. Not being able to do so would create a verbose thread. It is being kept nice and compact by my adding clearly stated Updates and even a regularly updated Index of important content in the first Post. It works well for me and I hope for other members.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/flir-e4-the-useful-information-thread/

The way Aurora explained the situation what you suggest would not have satisfied his objective unless the user name had also be deleted or changed

In such a special case an admin could help and really delete the posts.

And here's yet another issue. If you allow editing the first post in a thread forever, what happens when some members make corrections in the first post, and others just post corrections all along the thread (as it's normally done in a forum)?

Guess what you have? A confusing set of problems, because members have no idea which "first posts" are the corrected ones, and which first posts in other threads have incorrect information; the corrections being posted all along in the thread. You have confusion. I sure hope members are able to tell which are which, 'cause I sure wouldn't be able to. What if they assume all first posts are correct? Guess you better read the thread - and POW - that's back to what a forum is for.

Quote from: AlfBaz on December 31, 2013, 01:11:04 am

The way Aurora explained the situation what you suggest would not have satisfied his objective unless the user name had also be deleted or changed

In such a special case an admin could help and really delete the posts.

As long as the recycle option is enabled, posts are not really deleted, just moved,  and can be restored by an admin if necessary.

Is it feasible that contributors of information may be reluctant to post said info if they are unable to modify or retract that information?

Sure it is. And if that is the case, they need not enter the forum. I don't know if Dave has modded the TOS of this forum from the default SMF boilerplate, but I'm going to check it. Have you actually read it when you joined? You should go back and read what you actually agreed to when joining this forum AlfBaz.

I should state that I did write to the OP (Mike), Dave and other stakeholders in the E4 thread to explain my actions and request that the deleted posts remain deleted.

What was interesting to me was the level of raw hostility that was vented on me when I deleted my E4 posts. Not by the many but by the few. It was obviously a big deal for those persons. In that specific case I ignored the comments as the parties had an axe to grind with me personally. It did indicate that the community is self regulating and if you delete your posts as I did, expect a pretty unpleasant response from some quarters of the forum. I might add that I also received some messages from very understanding members, including DaveLJ, Mike and Mrflibble. 

In which case everyone loses. Users don't get  the benefit of that potential user's knowledge, Dave's advertising revenue goes down.
Risk of occasional confusion seems a small price to pay.

You really need to read the TOS of SMF forums.

Example  ?

Where have you provided examples of your claims Mike? Do not demand of others what you yourself cannot provide.

I made a big mistake in the E4 useful information thread. I tested a Meniscus lens on a simulator and then on a real thermal camera but not an E4. The results showed that the concave side should face the target and I detailed such in the 'how to' post. Some weeks later another member proved that the lens behaved very differently on the E4 as has a different primary lens. I added an update to my original post making it clear that my first recommendation for lens orientation was in error. I don't mind admitting when I get things wrong and at least the newbies will read the post and see what occurred and not incorrectly install the lens. Far better than posting another message later in a thread and referring back to a 'locked' 'how-to' posting that will be for ever more incorrect. No ?

Take a look:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/flir-e4-the-useful-information-thread/msg339922/#msg339922

Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on December 31, 2013, 01:32:46 am

Example  ?

Where have you provided examples of your claims Mike?

..err earlier in this thread. Please keep up.
 

Do not demand of others what you yourself cannot provide.

A lot of what you are claiming seems to be based on "what if?" scenarios.

I have already given one example, the E4 teardown thread, where ability to edit has been genuinely useful to a significant number of users, an Aurora has given another.
Here are another couple of examples of threads which have been made more useful by the ability to update information at the start 

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hantek-tekway-dso-hack-get-200mhz-bw-for-free/
OK it may not an ideal mechanism compared to some sort of formal thread-summarizing or post-quality filtering syste, but where it's done, it provides genuine benefit to significant numbers of users.

Again, can you show any actual examples of where the ability to edit posts has been detrimental to the quality of information available  to such an extent that it would be reasonable to restrict editing?
   

xrunner,

Very fair comment. This is why it is good to discuss these matters in an open way. I do see your point. I am not a heavy forum user and I am sure it shows. I usually work with data archives on  my home computer where I regularly update and correct where and when necessary. Forums are very different environments as you and others have detailed.

I will go with the flow on this topic but it has been very interesting reading all the same.

Bed is calling me (UK 2am) so off I must trot

TTFN

Dave,

For the sake of the argument, if you let a man born and raised in prison (without any sense of freedom because all he has ever known of is bondage in any sense and form*) make the rules for a group of people, what kind of society do you think he would create?

My proposal for the forum rules would be to be left open to the users discretion, even if that might create minor problems.

If you can restrict the threads deletion privilege (something that can be done only by a request to the moderators, perhaps), just let the regular members to point out any misbehaving users and prohibit the latter ones from having the standard set of privileges.
A self-regulated society of knowledgeable people is always a best-balanced one.

Regarding post deletions, I have found it very handy a few times when I hit the wrong button, and once when I posted a reply to the wrong thread(!).

Now, regarding posts editing, I am sure that you have already guessed what I was going to say!

After all, you said it yourself that, last time you checked it's running pretty smoothly.


-George

• * Are you familiar with Plato's Allegory of the Cave?
  
  In the end, the captives not only did oppose to and ridiculed their liberated fellow man (that, after he was released, ascended to and saw the real world, and returned back to the cave to release his fellow men from their delusions (their "chains") they were raised with) but they also felt that "[...] it was better not even to think of ascending; and if any one tried to loose another and lead him up to the light, let them only catch the offender, and they would put him to death" according to the translated script.
  
  Plato put it eloquently in one single sentence: 'It is about our human nature, whether it is enlightened or unenlightened.