Author Topic: Why is KiCAD under Linux such a heap of crap?  (Read 32856 times)

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Offline nickoe

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Re: Why is KiCAD under Linux such a heap of crap?
« Reply #50 on: August 28, 2014, 09:08:25 pm »
KiCAD is a really good free alternative. Maybe the only one that could be used by an average user.

The biggest problem is the code documentation. Also, the majority of the devs doesn't even bother to change the status of the bug they fix. Or they will commit a bug report fix without even saying what issues is addressees in the description of the commit.

Personally I like KiCAD under GNU/Linux. I build it almost daily (really simple processes) and track down bugs.

Alexander.

What kind of code documentation are you talking about? The code is doxygen formatted. You can generate the C++ doc with make doxygen-doc and even the python doc with make doxygen-python.

Alsp, in the last few months the devs has been better to mark bugs as fixed and often but not always write the bug id in the commit log.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 09:32:03 pm by nickoe »
 

Offline ve7xen

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Re: Why is KiCAD under Linux such a heap of crap?
« Reply #51 on: September 05, 2014, 02:46:32 am »
Oh, and so the Kicad developers have created this git-based system to pull library parts from ... somewhere. Oh, great. That goes against the whole idea of a user's standard vetted library, but I guess enough users think that sort of thing is OK.
They came so close to getting this right it's really disappointing. If they had just put the entire library in a single git repository, this would've been almost ideal. You can clone the upstream libraries, make your local adjustments in your own github (or local git) and then easily pull improvements from upstream without breaking your changes. The UI is obviously not there yet, but will come I think. The big problem is that every category is a separate git repo, so you can't easily clone it wholesale.

Well, the idea is that you might only need a couple of the .pretty libs. Aslo you can use the scripts to download the library, e.g.  scripts/library-repos-install.sh for linux and osx. The  scripts/library-repos-install.bat is very dumb and hardcoded, that might only work partially.
You can and it's not that hard, but this basically makes using git in the first place pointless. You're throwing away the centralized management and change control that would be extremely valuable for a negligible reduction in bandwidth/disk space. Not worth it, IMO. I certainly don't want to be the one keeping track of a dozen different git repos that basically all contain the same information. We need to consider that the repos will need to be branched, merged, possibly with changes pulled from multiple origins, etc. That just breaks down completely when you expect the user to do that manually for every single repo.

I'm not an expert on git though, I believe there may be a way to set up dependencies so that a parent git repo can automagically integrate all of these children once set up, to reduce the management overhead. If this is possible, I'd love to know how.
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Offline Dolganoff

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Re: Why is KiCAD under Linux such a heap of crap?
« Reply #52 on: September 08, 2014, 02:58:52 pm »
For a single-seat hobbyist or a one-man shop, I don't see what advantage is in having a centralized git repository (or repositories). I cloned all the git repos from Kicad's github locally and only use those (this makes possible working while commuting, for example). I have my own custom libraries created locally but pushet to my own github too, "in case something wrong happens".

However, if sometimes Kicad gets adopted by a multi-engineer team, a centralized company-wide repos can be very interesting to have. For me, this modification goes in the right direction, opening horizons for "big houses" adoption.
 

Offline ve7xen

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Re: Why is KiCAD under Linux such a heap of crap?
« Reply #53 on: September 10, 2014, 06:43:47 am »
For a single-seat hobbyist or a one-man shop, I don't see what advantage is in having a centralized git repository (or repositories). I cloned all the git repos from Kicad's github locally and only use those (this makes possible working while commuting, for example). I have my own custom libraries created locally but pushet to my own github too, "in case something wrong happens".
For one thing it facilitates sharing. Find something wrong with a builtin library? Fix your local repo and submit a pull request upstream. For another, it lets you easily maintain local modifications of the stock libraries while still being able to track upstream changes, and even merge them with your modified libraries if that makes sense. As a way to distribute the "official" libraries, or a community set of libraries, it seems pretty ideal.

You could also then pin your project to a particular git commit to ensure the libraries you used are identical in the future, even if you have to pull down the sources again. I don't think the UI for this exists, but it would be a useful feature to integrate (project is tied to a certain git commit present at creation) and not difficult to do manually.

Lots of this breaks or becomes unwieldy when you split the thing into a billion repositories though...

Quote
However, if sometimes Kicad gets adopted by a multi-engineer team, a centralized company-wide repos can be very interesting to have. For me, this modification goes in the right direction, opening horizons for "big houses" adoption.
I don't think companies are the only place where collaboration occurs. Even two DIYers fooling around with a simple project could make use of it. Bonus that all of KiCad's other files are plain text too and can be managed sensibly in git.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 06:46:17 am by ve7xen »
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Offline Icchan

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Re: Why is KiCAD under Linux such a heap of crap?
« Reply #54 on: October 07, 2014, 05:00:38 pm »
Everyone angry at the current state of KiCad should be developing it right now. It's not going to get any better by being angry on forums, there's no big company or organization behind the project, they don't really have any project outlines or a plan in motion as to what KiCad will be or should be. They lean heavily on the free contribution of volunteers without any real organization of the project. Developers are free to take it to a direction they wish to.

It's really bad way of handling a project, I know, but if you wish that to change, take a lead. Start organizing, start developing code, start laying out  a plan and goal posts and managing the development.

Or shut up. It's easy to be angry and criticize, it's harder to do something about it.

If KiCad had some sort of organization behind it, I would be angry too. As of now, i'm just frustrated that they've let the project go to this situation over the years.

But the thing is, professionals need tools that work, and none of those who really need KiCad to be a tool haven't got the time or need to work on it to get it better. Because professionals can afford the industry standard tools that are very advanced and highly usable for their work.

Now with CERN giving KiCad some incentive and money (they need donations, obviously) it's perhaps going to be better than before, but without your help it's not going to go there very fast.

It's your choice if you need a tool, that if you wish to pay for it, or develop a free one for everyone.

Offline firewalker

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Re: Why is KiCAD under Linux such a heap of crap?
« Reply #55 on: October 07, 2014, 05:12:17 pm »
I am building and testing kicad almost daily.  All kicad team has to do is a code freeze. I was wating for it after finishing the "kiway".

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Offline Icchan

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Re: Why is KiCAD under Linux such a heap of crap?
« Reply #56 on: October 13, 2014, 12:27:23 am »
That it is!  |O >:(

I just finished drawing several schematics with it and when I went to create the first PCB I started getting the constant errors stating that footprints can't be found, libaries can't be found, etc., etc., etc.

Today I've officially given up on Kicad. It's just too broken.
You just need to add the libraries to the PCB side of the software as well. Nothing is broken in that sense. Slightly cumbersome yes.
Agreed, he should really just read the doc.

http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~kicad-developers/kicad/doc/view/head:/doc/help/en/cvpcb.pdf

Usability is something that KiCad really needs people to organize and work on with a clear plan in mind, it's not very good at the moment and it will not get much better until some ground work is done. There's been dozens of hacks to make it better, but to really make KiCads usability good one needs to make fundamental work on better systems to manage how the libraries, PCB and schematic data is handled between the programs.

In CERN branch there's a clear plan for that frame work and I hope it'll put an end to the usability problems when it's easier to make stuff integrate and behave well together.

KiCad's many programs that are trying to work as one, but the integration between them isn't very tight by design, they're separate programs that are bundled together in a package called KiCad and they're not really one integrated solution for making professional PCB's. It's nice and modular by engineering perspective and fits well with general Linux and open source style of making programs, but it's not very good for usability and integration in mind.

When people need to read the doc to get libraries to work from schematic to layout it's a clear sign that there's something to be fixed about the flow of the program in general.

In many other programs I just press "I want a PCB" and the back and forth annotation works mainly without a hitch or any input from the user.

Offline ludzinc

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Re: Why is KiCAD under Linux such a heap of crap?
« Reply #57 on: October 13, 2014, 10:45:09 pm »
That it is!  |O >:(

I just finished drawing several schematics with it and when I went to create the first PCB I started getting the constant errors stating that footprints can't be found, libaries can't be found, etc., etc., etc.

Today I've officially given up on Kicad. It's just too broken.

What easy software is there to draw a schematic then make a PCB. And I'm not looking for something that will necessarily import everything from schematic. I don't mind doing everything manually on the PCB design and just looking at the schematic for reference. I just want something that I can design in without spending an entire DAY trying to get it working.

I hear you brother!

With Eagle, Altium, (everything else?) you share your schematic and pcb files, and that's it.  Opens in any editor, anyone can re-use it.

With KiCAD, fergeddaboudit!  I often work on my laptop at home, and then email the files to myself at work to tinker with at lunch time.  Tried KiCAD at home, half way through, emailed the files to myself at work, logged into my work account and found half my schematic missing.  |O

KiCAD has a loooong way to go before I'll try it again.  Don't get me started on the munted three click shuffle to do a simple copy / paste....
 

Offline Bassman59

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Re: Why is KiCAD under Linux such a heap of crap?
« Reply #58 on: October 13, 2014, 11:02:05 pm »
With Eagle, Altium, (everything else?) you share your schematic and pcb files, and that's it.  Opens in any editor, anyone can re-use it.

With KiCAD, fergeddaboudit!  I often work on my laptop at home, and then email the files to myself at work to tinker with at lunch time.  Tried KiCAD at home, half way through, emailed the files to myself at work, logged into my work account and found half my schematic missing.  |O

Which (BZR) version are you using? (How old is it?) Do you have the same version installed on both machines? Do both machines have the same libraries installed?

 

Offline ludzinc

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Re: Why is KiCAD under Linux such a heap of crap?
« Reply #59 on: October 13, 2014, 11:48:50 pm »
...Do you have the same version installed on both machines? Do both machines have the same libraries installed?

Forget which BZR, but yes both machines have the same version.  But you know what?  Altium doesn't care - AD14 can open AD10 files, no worries etc.  Is Eagle so temperamental about versions?

But that's a moot point, if you need to keep versions the same, fine, ok, I can manage that.

As for both libraries?  Nope.  Especially if I've updated one lib at home at 2AM. 

BUT WHY SHOULD THAT MATTER?  Why not embed the freaking symbols in the schematic?  Again, Eagle / Altium happy to open a schematic from *some where else*, without the same libraries, and show you a complete schematic.

 

Offline Bloch

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Re: Why is KiCAD under Linux such a heap of crap?
« Reply #60 on: October 14, 2014, 06:06:08 am »


In Protel and later Altium you dont have to care about the libraries. It is like included in the file.


Think about why PDF are so popular ..... It a single file, No need for include JPG and fronts if you need that to.


Quote from: Bassman59 on Today at 10:02:05 AM
Do both machines have the same libraries installed?




 

Offline firewalker

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Re: Why is KiCAD under Linux such a heap of crap?
« Reply #61 on: October 14, 2014, 08:29:58 am »
Kicad uses an Archive function for sharing projects.

Alexander.
Become a realist, stay a dreamer.

 

Offline ludzinc

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Re: Why is KiCAD under Linux such a heap of crap?
« Reply #62 on: October 14, 2014, 11:10:23 am »
Nice tip, thanks.
 

Offline ludzinc

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Re: Why is KiCAD under Linux such a heap of crap?
« Reply #63 on: October 14, 2014, 11:10:59 am »
Now can someone show me how to re-bind the keys (windows)?
 


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