NerO - Schematics & Key Features

[Simon]

The problm is an average joe knowing all of this and enough average joes kicking up a stink for the common manufacturer of one of the many products using te chips to have any lawsuit or vague consideration take place.

[Karel]

We have a problem with them reprogramming said chips, effectively bricking them.

I don't.

[Karel]

Oh so now it's someone elses fault after all and not the inoccent end user that does not even know what an FTDI chip is. and of course the end user knows where the parts were bought from and who assembled the product when it's out of warranty.

No. The procedure is as follows:

1) The enduser claims damages to the person/shop/company where they bought the device.

2) Then, that person/shop/company replaces/fix/pay damages/whatever to compensate the enduser.

3) Then, that person/shop/company claims damages to their supplier where they bought the fake chips.

4) This repeats till reached at the culprit.

[zapta]

No. The procedure is as follows:

1) The enduser claims damages to the person/shop/company where they bought the device.

2) Then, that person/shop/company replaces/fix/pay damages/whatever to compensate the enduser.

3) Then, that person/shop/company claims damages to their supplier where they bought the fake chips.

4) This repeats till reached at the culprit.

Here is an easier procedure:

1. Avoid FTDI chips.

[Simon]

Oh so now it's someone elses fault after all and not the inoccent end user that does not even know what an FTDI chip is. and of course the end user knows where the parts were bought from and who assembled the product when it's out of warranty.

No. The procedure is as follows:

1) The enduser claims damages to the person/shop/company where they bought the device.

2) Then, that person/shop/company replaces/fix/pay damages/whatever to compensate the enduser.

3) Then, that person/shop/company claims damages to their supplier where they bought the fake chips.

4) This repeats till reached at the culprit.

As you have not shown you country I don't know what legal system you are refering to. My limited experience of the UK legal system is that while most people think they have rights and protection there is actually very little in place and it certainly does not extend beyond warranty period. Of course if you have dealt with a foreign company or seller has shut up shop you have 0 comeback at the outset.

[Karel]

Of course if you have dealt with a foreign company or seller has shut up shop you have 0 comeback at the outset.

That's normal risc for doing business. Either pay more and buy from stable and reliable companies where you can claim damages
or pay less and buy from obscure companies and take the risc that you have to pay damages if things go wrong.

[Simon]

Of course if you have dealt with a foreign company or seller has shut up shop you have 0 comeback at the outset.

That's normal risc for doing business. Either pay more and buy from stable and reliable companies where you can claim damages
or pay less and buy from obscure companies and take the risc that you have to pay damages if things go wrong.

that is no protection really in the UK, if a seller does not coperate you have to take them to court, hardly worth it. and as for paying more you can find yourself paying much much more for something that is worse than buyinh direct from china.

[SL4P]

No. The procedure is as follows:
1) The enduser claims damages to the person/shop/company where they bought the device.
2) Then, that person/shop/company replaces/fix/pay damages/whatever to compensate the enduser.
3) Then, that person/shop/company claims damages to their supplier where they bought the fake chips.
4) This repeats till reached at the culprit.

Here is an easier procedure:
1. Avoid FTDI chips.

OK, so what happens when Intel release a processor that has a floating point math error ?   
How will not buying FTDI help in that case?

The solution is being aware of your options and responsibilities to your customers.
How you invoke those responsibilities is entirely up to you.

[zapta]

OK, so what happens when Intel release a processor that has a floating point math error ?   

In this case, the product will be faulty from day one.

The problem with the FTDI case is that they regressed working product in the field. Not very wise.

[Simon]

OK, so what happens when Intel release a processor that has a floating point math error ?   

In this case, the product will be faulty from day one.

The problem with the FTDI case is that they regressed working product in the field. Not very wise.

And what was worse was that their response amounted to "fuck you", and because they had not damaged a large enough entity to sue them they got off scott free and microsoft removed their drivers from the automatic update making life harder for the end users of FTDI products.

[mcinque]

No. The procedure is as follows:
1) The enduser claims damages to the person/shop/company where they bought the device.
2) Then, that person/shop/company replaces/fix/pay damages/whatever to compensate the enduser.
3) Then, that person/shop/company claims damages to their supplier where they bought the fake chips.
4) This repeats till reached at the culprit.

Don't you ever considered that the end user does NOT deserve to go thru "the procedure" just because FTDI has a counterfeit issue?

FTDI anti-fake strategy was absolutely disgusting because they took the easiest and stupid way to act against fakes, punishing unconscious end users.

And think that if the product isn't still in warranty, it is fucked. And IT'S-NOT-AN-END-USER-FAULT!

And when they realized that this was a terrible idea, they have done a step back on their decision, so basically they have damaged the end-users only.

My opinion is that hitting the end users for their problems is more or less like hit a child: is an asshole's behavior that doesn't deserve a crumb of respect.

OK, so what happens when Intel release a processor that has a floating point math error ?   

Well, for me that's a compliance issue, that in most cases is not intentional and doesn't let you with a dead device. Intel can (and must) effectively replace defective devices.

[Simon]

My opinion is that hitting the end users for their problems is more or less like hit a child: is an asshole's behavior that doesn't deserve a crumb of respect.

My experience of scottish people (FTDI is a scottish company) is that they are a bit like that and assume they are always the injured party. I was most dissapoint when not enough of them had illusions of grandure when they opted not to leave us. It would have provided years of entertainment from people that make their own bad luck and then blame someone else! FTDI's response was totally in character!

[donotdespisethesnake]

Oh so now it's someone elses fault after all and not the inoccent end user that does not even know what an FTDI chip is. and of course the end user knows where the parts were bought from and who assembled the product when it's out of warranty.

No. The procedure is as follows:

1) The enduser claims damages to the person/shop/company where they bought the device.

2) Then, that person/shop/company replaces/fix/pay damages/whatever to compensate the enduser.

3) Then, that person/shop/company claims damages to their supplier where they bought the fake chips.

4) This repeats till reached at the culprit.

You must either be a troll or a lawyer, maybe both!

[Simon]

Oh so now it's someone elses fault after all and not the inoccent end user that does not even know what an FTDI chip is. and of course the end user knows where the parts were bought from and who assembled the product when it's out of warranty.

No. The procedure is as follows:

1) The enduser claims damages to the person/shop/company where they bought the device.

2) Then, that person/shop/company replaces/fix/pay damages/whatever to compensate the enduser.

3) Then, that person/shop/company claims damages to their supplier where they bought the fake chips.

4) This repeats till reached at the culprit.

You must either be a troll or a lawyer, maybe both!

No I think he is just a fanboy so will never see reason. He has probably never tried to sort out a consumer issue.

Here in the UK no one helps you. You can complain to the company who can ignore you. Then you can contact "consumer direct" who are a helpline run by a charity and underfunded by the government as they are never available to take calls and I always have to leave my details for a call back that comes days later. They have replaced what used to be trading standards who have been peared to the bone and only deal with big issues and deal directly with businesses they can physically get their hands on. Consumer direct can only offer advice to help you contact the company again using the right language to make them understand you know your rights. If you still get nowhere it is probably court assuming the offender is still in business. Beleive me i have tried to deal with matters before and got nowhere even though laws had been broken, nobody was interested, it would cost me a fortune in court fees to see the offenders held accountable. The best we could do was get them to sort of rectify the cock up they had made or rather that their now vanished subcontractor had made.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

My experience of scottish people (FTDI is a scottish company) is that they are a bit like that and assume they are always the injured party. I was most dissapoint when not enough of them had illusions of grandure when they opted not to leave us. It would have provided years of entertainment from people that make their own bad luck and then blame someone else! FTDI's response was totally in character!

Off topic and racist, better report it to the moderator.

oops..

[Simon]

I'm just stating my opinion based on experience, I'm entited to that. As for "racism" they are the same race as me and given my surname I probably am of scottish decent.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

Ok I'll take your word for it. 
Hopefully we could also now keep this thread on topic, now that people have vented their views of FTDI.

[Simon]

Well the last word on the subject was that what was being given out as open source or whatever was not actually open source. Any advance on that ?

[Macbeth]

Is everyone missing the obvious point that FTDI deliberately caused malicious damage? I mean imagine Microsoft, when detecting an end user running an illegitimate copy of Windows goes and formats the users hard disk in retaliation? I can't see the difference. Pretty much any bona fide software developer, even of low end shareware or stuff like that would not dream of doing something so malicious.

Karel would no doubt be happy that JoeShmoe Ltd (1 man band, assets of < £1k) who supplied a minor piece of software detected a legitimate pirate or else a false positive and his HDD's get formated and then all the BIOS chips on all peripherals were also zapped just because. Hell, why not trigger the original Commodore PET POKE of DEATH

Karel would be happy with all his losses because he has the right to sue JoeShmoe Ltd in the courts...

[Simon]

This is different, you have mentioned examples of software that "self destruct" FTDI's problem was with their driver being used without permission, so all they had to do was stop the "pirated" software from working, not destroy an unrelated product.

[Macbeth]

This is different, you have mentioned examples of software that "self destruct" FTDI's problem was with their driver being used without permission, so all they had to do was stop the "pirated" software from working, not destroy an unrelated product.

Precisely - if the "cloned" FTDI chips were actual xerox copies, then they would have got away (and are still getting away to this day) with masquerading as the originals.

The FTDI "compatible" chips that are bricked are totally independant hardware wise. Original designs. They just present themselves to Windows as equivalent to FTDI by VID:PID and happen to mostly be compatible with the original driver. The new drivers deliberately do what they can to destroy these chips, so much so that using a device quite happily in Linux or MacOS one day you plug it into a Windows PC and it fucks it up and you can't use it anymore on any of your other computers.

Fine, if FTDI want to stop other manufacturers from using their drivers then go ahead and block them. What they did was insane. FTDI have lost all respect forevermore.

So yeah, NerO - I won't even bother looking up what it is. I can't be arsed with anything associated with FTDI.

[Simon]

Well they have basically done their own version of an UNO board to get back in with us.

[timb]

Well the last word on the subject was that what was being given out as open source or whatever was not actually open source. Any advance on that ?

It looks like FTDI are giving out the NerO schematics and PCB files under the Open Hardware banner to allow anyone to modify and produce their own versions. However, they place a restriction in their terms stating you *cannot* replace the FTDI chip with anything else. Fair enough, right?

Wrong. The problem is that the Open Hardware license says you can't put those types of restrictions on something. Oops!

[Simon]

Well the last word on the subject was that what was being given out as open source or whatever was not actually open source. Any advance on that ?

It looks like FTDI are giving out the NerO schematics and PCB files under the Open Hardware banner to allow anyone to modify and produce their own versions. However, they place a restriction in their terms stating you *cannot* replace the FTDI chip with anything else. Fair enough, right?

Wrong. The problem is that the Open Hardware license says you can't put those types of restrictions on something. Oops!

So basically they are at it again, trying to make their own rules. And I can't help but point out a situation that mirrors recent political events in that region of the UK.

[AlxDroidDev]

I like their design... I might just order a CH340 chip to build my own NerO!

I think I'll make my own KickStarter with a nero-clone featuring your choice of:
- CH340
- PL2303
- CP2102
- TUSB3410
- Atmega16U4

Suck on that, FTDI!