Author Topic: RANT: A pdf circuit diagram is NOT open hardware  (Read 32692 times)

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Offline Psi

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Re: RANT: A pdf circuit diagram is NOT open hardware
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2014, 09:47:23 am »
Mike explains it perfectly with..

Open Hardware != Open Source Hardware.


Open Hardware = The designer has decided to release all or part of his design files on the off chance they might be useful to others.

Open Source Hardware = The designer is following the legal OSH license and releasing everything in open formats.
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Offline SigmoidTopic starter

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Re: RANT: A pdf circuit diagram is NOT open hardware
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2014, 07:03:56 pm »
It's not about "free as in free beer" or "spoon-feeding".

Source = the machine readable code in its entirety that can be used to build the executable software / physical hardware.

I see a pdf as essentially a cop-out. "Open hardware is cool, I wanna be open hardware! Hey, I'll do a screen capture and post the pdf, that's open!"

...no, it's not. A software analogue of that would be posting the UML class diagrams in pdf. Would you call that OSS? I sure as hell wouldn't, and neither would the OSS community.

Sure, everyone's free to do as they like, but if the "open sourcing" does not realistically allow wide community buy-in and changes of the device, it's not open source at all.
Would you say that a Commodore 64 was open hardware? The circuit diagram was released on paper - the same as pdf really.

The real question is, how easy is it for the community to make the design their own. Is it significantly easier than designing the whole thing from scratch?

I think in an ideal world, if we have an open source hardware device with, say, an interference issue like the old Fluke 87V's with GSM phones, the one who found the issue could just open up the source files, add the necessary decoupling caps, create a ticket in the bugtracker, and then check the changes into git.

With a pdf, there's a significant brick wall if one wants to create a "fork", or a "patch". Actually, the only thing you can do is to "fork" the design, create your own copy from ground up.

If someone is protective of his design, or wants to use $1000 software suites, it's his prerogative. But it takes away the entire meaning and point of being open, so he might as well just call it closed (which it is in reality).
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 07:07:05 pm by Sigmoid »
 

Offline 8086

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Re: RANT: A pdf circuit diagram is NOT open hardware
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2014, 07:08:09 pm »

Source = the machine readable code in its entirety that can be used to build the executable software / physical hardware.


Exercise A.

Circle the word "source" in the following sentence.

>Open hardware.

Also, isn't the source someone's brain? I mean, really. If you don't care about the silly logo and spoon  feeding rules, you can still have open hardware, and a pdf of your design is perfectly reasonable.
 

Offline microbug

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RANT: A pdf circuit diagram is NOT open hardware
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2014, 07:41:07 pm »
Although the title of this topic says 'open hardware', the widely-used phrase and logo is "open source hardware.
 

Offline 8086

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Re: RANT: A pdf circuit diagram is NOT open hardware
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2014, 07:45:49 pm »
Although the title of this topic says 'open hardware', the widely-used phrase and logo is "open source hardware.

So you're not talking about the subject of this thread? Which is open hardware.

I mean, you're interpreting it a certain way, adding more criteria.

Is a pdf really not open? Can you see an electronics design from a pdf? Yes you can.

Can you easily reproduce it? Maybe not, but how does that make it closed? It's your failing, not the designer's.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 07:51:05 pm by 8086 »
 

Offline SigmoidTopic starter

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Re: RANT: A pdf circuit diagram is NOT open hardware
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2014, 10:20:31 pm »
So you're not talking about the subject of this thread? Which is open hardware.
I mean, you're interpreting it a certain way, adding more criteria.
Is a pdf really not open? Can you see an electronics design from a pdf? Yes you can.
Can you easily reproduce it? Maybe not, but how does that make it closed? It's your failing, not the designer's.
I'd argue that the only way to be truly "open" is "open source".
See my explanation above of what I mean, what the benefits of an open source project are. I'm not adding criteria, I'm arguing for a stronger dedication toward openness. "Open" is cool, and more and more people are going "open".

Yes, a circuit diagram is a good thing - but my argument is that it's nothing special. It doesn't make you "open", only "less closed". It should be standard issue for anything, like it was 30 years ago.

However, I'd like all this movement and coolness to move beyond the "cool" factor, and actually lead to a similar explosion in innovation, as open source software did. And for that, we need community-developed hardware, which is enabled only through true open sourcing.
 

Offline jadew

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Re: RANT: A pdf circuit diagram is NOT open hardware
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2014, 12:06:33 am »
I'm noticing that the crowd pretty much demands open source stuff. Free is not enough anymore!

Well, let me tell you something: You are not entitled to anything. Be glad you got whatever you got. The author has no obligation, moral or otherwise towards you and he doesn't have to respect some random definition an open source zealot farted during breakfast just because you like the sound of it.

For me, getting the schematic of a device sounds precisely as open hardware. If they decide to share something else, that's just an extra courtesy and again, you don't have any right to bitch about not getting it.


On top of this, I think people are blinded by the term and fail to see when and how it's generally being used:

1) Something that can't be easily marketed, the author doesn't care about it that much.
2) A one off or something so simple that it can be easily copied anyway, so the author gets one step ahead and brands it as open source hardware to take advantage of the buzzword.
3) The design sucks so bad or it's lacking parts (hardware or software) that it needs community support. The authors take advantage of the free contributions while enjoying the material gains by themselves.

It's just a buzzword.


I don't want to go too deep into the subject of open source, but I'm going to leave you with a URL I recently found. It's an essay which resonated with the thoughts I've been having for years. It's related to software, but I think the trend has already infected the hardware world as well (not on the same level tho):
http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/the_problems_of_open_source.htm
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: RANT: A pdf circuit diagram is NOT open hardware
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2014, 12:12:28 am »
IMO it is quite reasonable to put a design out there with schematics, code etc., but refuse to supply PCB files.
If people want to improve it, great, put the work in and make something better, but just doing a straight copy adds nothing and is of minmal benefit to anyone but the person that makes the copy.

There is an accepted meaning for "Open source hardware", so using "Open hardware" to describe the same thing is pointless and confusing.

Seems to me that "Open Hardware" is an entirely reasonable term for something that  doesn't comply with all the "rules" of OSHW but has enough openness to be useful for producing derivatives, allowing repair and education.
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: RANT: A pdf circuit diagram is NOT open hardware
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2014, 12:17:03 am »
Quote
... or wants to use $1000 software suites, it's his prerogative. But it takes away the entire meaning and point of being open, so he might as well just call it closed (which it is in reality).
Nonsense. Choice of tool, or cost of implementing a design has nothing to do with openness or otherwise.
An OSHW project could use a $10k fpga, or a 20 layer PCB, or need a six-axis multi-killowatt laser robot to build - this has no bearing on its openness, just its affordability, which is a completely different aspect.
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Online BravoV

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Re: RANT: A pdf circuit diagram is NOT open hardware
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2014, 04:16:11 am »
I thought OSHW is about the "good" intention to share, instead of fussing around on how to share it ?

I'm imagining that I'm an electronics greybeard and have a cool electronic project with a breakthrough and clever technique in designing the circuit, and also laid out the PCB such way that it will have an optimal result.

What I did everything in PDF ....

- Posted the circuit in PDF ,clearly drawn with all components values
- Provide full descriptions and explanations on the how the circuit work in the circuit's PDF
- PCB layout in PDF and provide full explanations on layout aspects, vector based and printable to 1:1 ratio.
- Embedded few photos of the working product and a clear and through explanations too.
- Sincere, willingly and open to Q&A and discussion on it.
- Put an OSHW logo almost every where in the PDF or the PCB.

Now, if I got complains or whines that I cannot use the OSHW logo, and the way PCB is laid takes lots of effort to re-create, and same to the circuit schematic at other application since I did it on proprietary applications and not willing to share the file.

My reaction to the whiners ... GET OUTTA HERE, DONT COME BACK

Now ... what say you ? Aye or Nay ?  >:D
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 04:29:49 am by BravoV »
 

Offline SigmoidTopic starter

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Re: RANT: A pdf circuit diagram is NOT open hardware
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2014, 05:26:58 am »
I'm noticing that the crowd pretty much demands open source stuff. Free is not enough anymore!

Well, let me tell you something: You are not entitled to anything. Be glad you got whatever you got. The author has no obligation...

Now, if I got complains or whines that I cannot use the OSHW logo, and the way PCB is laid takes lots of effort to re-create, and same to the circuit schematic at other application since I did it on proprietary applications and not willing to share the file.

My reaction to the whiners ... GET OUTTA HERE, DONT COME BACK

Lol seems I stepped on some easily bruised toes there. Really what is up with this tone? Cognitive dissonance much? You know what you sound like? "Hey I don't want to throw pearls before the pigs, and the damn pigs call me names! Damn them! They aren't worth the pearls anyway!"

Funny how my actual arguments never even seem to have gotten duplicated.

Okay here's for the "whining about the whiners" crowd. Be happy with your designs. You're free to marry them, adopt them or sell them into slavery. I don't care. I care about community development and potential awesomeness. If you don't want to be part of it, then don't.

In "open", the pigs are what's called the community. 90% of the community is just users. People who whine about why the device / software doesn't do this or that, and ask stupid questions. But the other 10% are who build stuff. Cause a real community project is not done by one man, it's done by many.

Linux didn't get to where it is by finding excuses not to post the source code, and how people don't deserve it anyway.

EDIT: And I'm not against proprietary design. It's important, and I'm not saying everything should be open. I just think that people who SAY they are open, and want the social fruits and the coolness, but are in fact embracing a proprietary attitude like we've seen above ("myy preciousss, gollum!"), are kind of full of it.

ps. @jadew, it seems you hate the very idea of open anyway. So why exactly are you in a discussion about how open should work? Go and do proprietary stuff. Nobody will hate you for it, and I don't see no open source police with shotguns standing in front of your door anytime soon.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 06:07:59 am by Sigmoid »
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: RANT: A pdf circuit diagram is NOT open hardware
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2014, 05:40:52 am »
Is a pdf really not open? Can you see an electronics design from a pdf? Yes you can.

Can you easily reproduce it? Maybe not, but how does that make it closed? It's your failing, not the designer's.

Reproduceability would seem to be a vacuously obvious part of "open", even if reciprocity is not offered (i.e., allowing community modifications to the source documents).

I can draw any kind of barf, but an RF circuit for instance isn't going to do a damn bit of good without at least a rough sketch of layout and shielding, let alone a proper known-working layout with mechanical drawings specifying the shields (or OTS parts).

Anyone claiming schematics as "open" is lying to themselves and making themselves a fool in front of everyone else.

A good computational analogy is providing actual source, versus object code (or libraries), or raw machine code.  Yes, it is technically possible to work with any, but you can already tell me which one you'd rather be given.

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: RANT: A pdf circuit diagram is NOT open hardware
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2014, 06:22:50 am »
Now, if I got complains or whines that I cannot use the OSHW logo, and the way PCB is laid takes lots of effort to re-create, and same to the circuit schematic at other application since I did it on proprietary applications and not willing to share the file.
My reaction to the whiners ... GET OUTTA HERE, DONT COME BACK
Now ... what say you ? Aye or Nay ?  >:D

If you don't meet the OSHW definition requirements of sharing the original CAD source files, then don't use the logo, simple as that.
Call it open or anythign else you want, but the using the logo means that you agree to the OSHW definition.
If you knowing use the logo and don't comply then you are just being a dick, and trying to leech off the OSHW community name and logo. That is not a good look.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: RANT: A pdf circuit diagram is NOT open hardware
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2014, 06:26:00 am »
IMO it is quite reasonable to put a design out there with schematics, code etc., but refuse to supply PCB files.

Of course, that's been going on for many decades in the magazine industry and is perfectly fine, nothing new there at all.

Quote
Seems to me that "Open Hardware" is an entirely reasonable term for something that  doesn't comply with all the "rules" of OSHW but has enough openness to be useful for producing derivatives, allowing repair and education.

I agree, which is why I think the OSHW (definition) community need a more identifiable name. But essentially the logo is enough.
If you meet the definition you can use the logo, if not, you don't use the logo. Both are still "open" designs.
 

Offline uwezi

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Re: RANT: A pdf circuit diagram is NOT open hardware
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2014, 07:46:00 am »
I agree, which is why I think the OSHW (definition) community need a more identifiable name. But essentially the logo is enough.
If you meet the definition you can use the logo, if not, you don't use the logo. Both are still "open" designs.

Going full circle back then to Sigmoid's first post, which started this discussion, he was actually complaining about "open hardware" not automatically following the rules of "Open Source Hardware". 

I for one have for a long time been sharing my electronics - mostly in the form of schematics, both on the net, from old BBS groups in ASCII graphics to my blog and Instructables and in scientific journals. But until 2 days ago - I must admit - I was not even aware that there existed an "Open Source Hardware" community. And I must say, I don't care. For me the source of hardware is the schematic and if necessary the general layout and the sources to the firmware. Gerber files or CAD files to me are not necessarily the source anymore and if that's what is against the rules of OSHW I will continue to share my designs as well as to ignore a certain logotype.
 

Offline LukeW

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Re: RANT: A pdf circuit diagram is NOT open hardware
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2014, 08:10:05 am »
Generally, if I want to release open hardware information for a project, I will release a PDF of the schematic and Gerber files and the CAD/CAM/EDA files.

Yes, you might only have a PDF of a schematic - but maybe the person has just drawn their schematic by hand. Or maybe there's just a schematic - there is no PCB layout for you to have.

Personally, I find it annoying if people only release their CAD/CAM files - eg. Altium or Eagle or KiCAD or whatever - and they don't release a schematic PDF. If you just want to have a quick look at the schematic you might need to stuff around finding viewer software or installing the software, which may not be available for your OS, just to have a quick look at the schematic. So in that case a PDF is good - it's easily accessible for a quick look at the schematic.
 

Offline Stonent

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Re: RANT: A pdf circuit diagram is NOT open hardware
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2014, 01:55:15 am »
IMO it is quite reasonable to put a design out there with schematics, code etc., but refuse to supply PCB files.

I would agree with that, putting PCB files out there as well is just basically a license for some guy in China to load the whole thing into a pick and place machine and start generating them by the thousands and running your small operation out of business.
The larger the government, the smaller the citizen.
 

Offline amyk

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Re: RANT: A pdf circuit diagram is NOT open hardware
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2014, 10:43:13 am »
IMO it is quite reasonable to put a design out there with schematics, code etc., but refuse to supply PCB files.

I would agree with that, putting PCB files out there as well is just basically a license for some guy in China to load the whole thing into a pick and place machine and start generating them by the thousands and running your small operation out of business.
...isn't that sort of the point of open hardware? To be replicated and mass-produced?

I believe that "open hardware" should really mean what you can (legally) do with the design,  and nothing more or less than that.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: RANT: A pdf circuit diagram is NOT open hardware
« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2014, 11:03:11 am »
IMO it is quite reasonable to put a design out there with schematics, code etc., but refuse to supply PCB files.
I would agree with that

The accepted formal OSHW definition and other forms of opening your design are not mutually exclusive. Just don't try and pretend it's one form (by using the logo) when it's not.
It's all about what level of openness you operate at.
I think that we can all agree that not providing a schematic makes your product "closed".
Same goes for products that needs firmware. No firmware = closed.
But let's say you provide the schematic, firmware, and BOM for an electronics products. I think the majority would have to agree that this is at least somewhat "open". i.e it's not a closed design.
And therefore is "somwhat open" actually "open", well, yes, I think it is. It's not closed.
Even the most ardent formal OHSW logo wielders won't "open" everything. i.e. they usually won't provide you with their full manufacturing BOM's, with bulk pricing details, suppliers, manufacturing contacts etc.
So it's all a matter of where you draw the line.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: RANT: A pdf circuit diagram is NOT open hardware
« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2014, 11:08:47 am »
...isn't that sort of the point of open hardware? To be replicated and mass-produced?

In theory, yes, according to the logo-wielding crowd. But in practice, I think the majority give the thumbs down to simply copying a designing for profit without adding any value to the community.
e.g. the Tangibot on Kickstarter did exactly that, and they got their arse kicked for it, even though they had every legal right to do and were operating within the rules of the game.
A lot like free speech - I'll defend your right to say anything you want, just don't expect to like it or agree with you.

The Tangibot and Arduino clones are interesting examples. You see the companies behind the products publicly saying "we support their right to do that" etc, but you can clearly read between the lines that they aren't happy when someone just copied their stuff without adding any value.
 

Offline GEuser

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Re: RANT: A pdf circuit diagram is NOT open hardware
« Reply #45 on: February 25, 2014, 11:59:42 am »
Get the Engineers in they'll sort it out!
Soon
 

Offline SigmoidTopic starter

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Re: RANT: A pdf circuit diagram is NOT open hardware
« Reply #46 on: February 25, 2014, 03:03:57 pm »
Okay my bad, I really meant open source hardware. :) There's a point in being "open" as in following open standards, and
sharing knowledge, while maintaining some protection of ones' business. Thar said, if you are successful, then the lack of Gerbers won't stop the Chinese copycats from flooding eBay.

I would agree with that, putting PCB files out there as well is just basically a license for some guy in China to load the whole thing into a pick and place machine and start generating them by the thousands and running your small operation out of business.
I understand your concern. I guess if I wanted to battle the Chinese on those terms, I'd stay proprietary, and maybe release obsolete designs as a courtesy. But that isn't Open Source, or particularly open for that matter.
As for the threat of Chinese competition, I don't see Arduino being run into the ground, even though the Chinese "Arduino compatible" boards possibly outnumber real Arduinos ten to one. I do think that there's some decency left in people. :) If you're a dedicated Open Source designer, many will still want the convenience of having a ready-made device or a kit delivered, and people will want to support you - thus choose you over the Chinese knockoffs.

Another point is that several of the projects I've seen that followed such "protective" patterns were never an actual commercial endeavor. The web is full of makers' webshops for some "open" device, with permanent "out of stock" signs. People like that don't need the Chinese to run them into the ground, they are dead and buried anyway as an enterprise.

These "single-run of 10 units so the PCB fab is cheaper" projects would do so much better as Open Source in the community domain.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: RANT: A pdf circuit diagram is NOT open hardware
« Reply #47 on: February 26, 2014, 08:24:21 am »
My gripe with this 'philosophical community' is that they want everything to be as free as possible. And they begin by imposing rules....

If you want to share something . Just throw it out there. Don't tack on licences and or restrictions.
There have to be licenses and restrictions. Otherwise big companies like Apple will claim your circuit it theirs and sue you for making it public. There have been several lawsuits to force companies to acknowledge they use open source software in their products and release the source code. That is no more than fair. Actually open source has enabled a lot of opportunities for companies to make great products without having to reinvent the wheel c.q. start from scratch. Look at Android. It's basically Linux with a Java framework on top. Apple's OSX an iOS are based on FreeBSD (Linux' lesser known counterpart).

A good example of how open hardware works well is CERN. They design hardware & software and publish everything so several companies can produce their designs and use them for other purposes as well. If someone improves the hardware the changes get shared back with the 'community'. This may seem weird at first but it is a way to get very complicated work done which otherwise could only be funded by extremely big companies. I may even be working on a bit of such hardware in the near future (while getting paid). There is not much philosophical or free about it.

Here is what CERN has to say about open tools for developing hardware: http://cernandsociety.web.cern.ch/technology/kicad-development

BTW wherever you go there are people saying 'Thou shall not ...'. Just ignore those (unless they start killing people) and you'll be fine.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: RANT: A pdf circuit diagram is NOT open hardware
« Reply #48 on: February 26, 2014, 04:51:31 pm »
A good example of how open hardware works well is CERN. They design hardware & software and publish everything so several companies can produce their designs and use them for other purposes as well. If someone improves the hardware the changes get shared back with the 'community'. This may seem weird at first but it is a way to get very complicated work done which otherwise could only be funded by extremely big companies. I may even be working on a bit of such hardware in the near future (while getting paid). There is not much philosophical or free about it.

1. CERN is funded by tax payers money so you cannot compare it to commercial entities or individual that put their own time. Whatever they do they are paid for it.

2. Never appreciated the GPL like licenses because of the you-must-release-all-derived-works restriction, it is a form of half giving and as somebody said once, GPL is like cancer. Whenever I release software and hardware I always do it under a more liberal license like Apache 2 such that the contribution back is fully voluntary.

As for the topic at hand, a PDF is more useful for me than an Altiium source file, even if it has a big OSH logo in it (which I cannot see anyway).
 

Offline jadew

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Re: RANT: A pdf circuit diagram is NOT open hardware
« Reply #49 on: February 26, 2014, 05:17:51 pm »
1. CERN is funded by tax payers money so you cannot compare it to commercial entities or individual that put their own time. Whatever they do they are paid for it.

2. Never appreciated the GPL like licenses because of the you-must-release-all-derived-works restriction, it is a form of half giving and as somebody said once, GPL is like cancer. Whenever I release software and hardware I always do it under a more liberal license like Apache 2 such that the contribution back is fully voluntary.

As for the topic at hand, a PDF is more useful for me than an Altiium source file, even if it has a big OSH logo in it (which I cannot see anyway).

I fully agree with this, the GPL is the main reason why there's not enough good free software for linux. There are lots of people who would release free software but not code and can't really do it because virtually all the freaking libraries are under the GPL.

The funny thing is that 99.99% of the open source advocates can't even code while the programmers, who could make the linux world look a little better, get incommoded by GPL while they don't even care about the crappy code these licenses are protecting (yes, it's usually garbage).
 


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