Tesla going open source?

[rob77]

...You will use overnight grid electricity (cheaper than daytime) the vast majority of the time, ...

Cllean-car-that-runs-on-free-sun-power no more?

you don't have enough sunlight all the time - so it's always a combination of solar & grid power. when you're not charging and there is a sunlight, then the solar can supply the grid. in fact buying electricity when charging and selling when not charging. if the solar panels are powerful enough to produce all the energy you need for the car, then you break even with buying vs. selling and in fact your car uses "solar only".

[zapta]

you don't have enough sunlight all the time - so it's always a combination of solar & grid power. when you're not charging and there is a sunlight, then the solar can supply the grid. in fact buying electricity when charging and selling when not charging. if the solar panels are powerful enough to produce all the energy you need for the car, then you break even with buying vs. selling and in fact your car uses "solar only".

That's a strange argument, my car is solar because I have a side business selling solar power.

[ConKbot]

'open source' guys losing their shit because they dont have everything handed to them on a silver platter 
Gotta have drawings, models, everything ready to send off to manufacturing and get one made. Or tweak it a little bit, call themselves hackers, ship it off to get made, otherwise they want the persons head on said platter for using "open source" without catering to every whim. 

[tjaeger]

'open source' guys losing their shit because they dont have everything handed to them on a silver platter 
Gotta have drawings, models, everything ready to send off to manufacturing and get one made. Or tweak it a little bit, call themselves hackers, ship it off to get made, otherwise they want the persons head on said platter for using "open source" without catering to every whim.

The only people on this forum that I see 'losing their shit' over open source are trolls like you.  I don't see anyone complaining that Tesla doesn't make their cars open source -- nobody would expect them to.

[ConKbot]

'open source' guys losing their shit because they dont have everything handed to them on a silver platter 
Gotta have drawings, models, everything ready to send off to manufacturing and get one made. Or tweak it a little bit, call themselves hackers, ship it off to get made, otherwise they want the persons head on said platter for using "open source" without catering to every whim.

The only people on this forum that I see 'losing their shit' over open source are trolls like you.  I don't see anyone complaining that Tesla doesn't make their cars open source -- nobody would expect them to.

Open source? Are they publishing the schematics, 3D models and firmware of their cars?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/oshw/rant-a-pdf-circuit-diagram-is-not-open-hardware/

[MacAttak]

That's a strange argument, my car is solar because I have a side business selling solar power.

It's not a solar car. I'm not sure why you are reading it that way. It's an electric car. There are no solar panels on it, nor does it come with any solar charging apparatus.

Now, given the choice I would have a solar array on my roof. With or without an EV in the garage. But I am 1) quite certain my HOA will disapprove since it would certainly not match the other 31 homes in my community, and 2) I am also quite certain I won't be in this house for the 8 to 10 years it will take to break even on the investment.

[josem]

'open source' guys losing their shit because they dont have everything handed to them on a silver platter 
Gotta have drawings, models, everything ready to send off to manufacturing and get one made. Or tweak it a little bit, call themselves hackers, ship it off to get made, otherwise they want the persons head on said platter for using "open source" without catering to every whim.

Not sure where are these "people losing their shit" over it, but it is unfortunate of Tesla to deliberately choose to label this move as "open source" when in fact they're just opening up patents.

Patents are not "source".

I understand the goal is to establish a standard around their charging method and many other companies have followed the same strategy of giving away their patents for free when seeking to establish standards.

In fact it's done so often there's even a technical name for it: RAND-Z(ero) which stands for Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory with Zero royalty.

Calling it an "open source" move is just propaganda AKA marketing. But hey it works.

[rob77]

'open source' guys losing their shit because they dont have everything handed to them on a silver platter 
Gotta have drawings, models, everything ready to send off to manufacturing and get one made. Or tweak it a little bit, call themselves hackers, ship it off to get made, otherwise they want the persons head on said platter for using "open source" without catering to every whim.

The only people on this forum that I see 'losing their shit' over open source are trolls like you.  I don't see anyone complaining that Tesla doesn't make their cars open source -- nobody would expect them to.

Open source? Are they publishing the schematics, 3D models and firmware of their cars?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/oshw/rant-a-pdf-circuit-diagram-is-not-open-hardware/

one journalist got a wrong understanding of opensource... that's it. Elon Musk provided the patents to others to speed up things. now other companies can DESIGN THEIR OWN EV technology using the Tesla's intellectual property without paying for that property. - that's kind of open for me, and it should be sufficient to speed up things in the EV area.

the link to the other thread you pasted is irrelevant for this tread... and btw... regarding the other thread - providing a schematic and the source code for the micro IS OPEN SOURCE ! schematic and source code of the software is the SOURCE for all electronics. PCB layout, gerbers...etc.. - that's the manufacturing process.

[digsys]

... It's just a rough sketch of an idea which shows enough to prove the originallity of an idea. After all a patent is a legal document and many patents are just bogus ....

patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.htm&r=0&f=S&l=50&d=PTXT&OS="tesla+motors"&RS="tesla+++motors"&Query="tesla+motors"&PrevList1=Prev.+50+Hits&TD=189&Srch1="tesla+++motors"
First off - I do admire Elon for what he is doing, and now taking huge risks on his gigfactory BUT -
studying many of his patents, they are mostly bull****t, just more of the cr*p system that the US forced on everyone.
Half the stuff I and others were doing years ago, and even back then it wasn't novel or new. In fact many of the ideas are in white papers
FFS eg "charging batteries based on temperature and SOC" ... FFS
I do wish him success, but my opinion of the "technical development" he's brought to the world has taken a huge hit.
This stupid "patent whatever you feel like and let lawyers sort it out" has to be the worst con conceived. Rant over :-) YMMV

[digsys]

And here's an interesting development - (May 19)
http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/chinese-billionaire-sparks-electric-car-war-20140519-38jke.html?utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=outbrain_amplify
Wonder if he'd heard of Elons offer at the time? Will he come on board? Is he serious? Stay tuned.

[zapta]

one journalist got a wrong understanding of opensource... that's it.

The open source angle came from Musk himself, and then the Tesla fans try to sell it as a bona fide open source. Yes, you can also blame the journalists that fail for it.

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you

[rob77]

one journalist got a wrong understanding of opensource... that's it.

The open source angle came from Musk himself, and then the Tesla fans try to sell it as a bona fide open source. Yes, you can also blame the journalists that fail for it.

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you

in the linked article the phrase "open source" is written twice, neither of those states that Tesla is open source.

-- citation 1
"Yesterday, there was a wall of Tesla patents in the lobby of our Palo Alto headquarters. That is no longer the case. They have been removed, in the spirit of the open source movement, for the advancement of electric vehicle technology."
-- end of citation

-- citation 2
"We believe that applying the open source philosophy to our patents will strengthen rather than diminish Tesla’s position in this regard."
-- end of citation

statements  like "in the spirit of open source movement" and "applying the open source philosophy" are quite clear and actually confusing those with a statement like "Tesla is open source" is kind of stupid.

Elon's decision to "open the patents" is very welcome, and i hope others will follow him.

[zapta]

statements  like "in the spirit of open source movement" and "applying the open source philosophy" are quite clear and actually confusing those with a statement like "Tesla is open source" is kind of stupid.

Don't be naive, he intentionally crafted this misleading wording to create the association with open source.

[rob77]

statements  like "in the spirit of open source movement" and "applying the open source philosophy" are quite clear and actually confusing those with a statement like "Tesla is open source" is kind of stupid.

Don't be naive, he intentionally crafted this misleading wording to create the association with open source.

I'm fully aware of that but that's the kind of "mandatory" corporate ethics nowadays you would be considered stupid to miss such a opportunity, especially when talking about a giant leap like opening your patents i wouldn't blame Elon for that, smart people got the message, the others are confusing it with "Tesla is open source".

btw... opening the patents is like "fractional open source" - you release the intellectual property , but keep your R&D closed. other companies can do their own R&D and end up with the same product. the final result is the same, the other company was able to develop the same product without paying for the intellectual property. and actually their R&D might come up with a better solution - further improving that EV technology.

releasing something as real open source hardware has 2 effects:
1. people/companies interested in the technology will jump in and improve/fix/provide support - this is why we do open source
2. Chinese companies will start mass production (using the cheapest materials they could find, not giving a rat's ass about quality/safety) in the very form as it was released into open source - saturate the market and effectively discarding any room for improvements/development of the product (only few people would buy the improved/evolved version).

imagine what would happen if someone would release a full EV technology as open source.

[Bassman59]

The giga factory will solve that. This factory is insane. It will have its own lithium refinery, be located close to lithium mines, have its own train tracks, powerplant (solar and wind farms) and it will recycle spent packs into new ones.

I live in Tucson, which is one of the cities vying for this factory.

There are no lithium mines anywhere around here.

[MacAttak]

From doing a few limited searches it seems like there is a source in Nevada and possibly one in Wyoming.

Other sources are in Bolivia, Chile, Argentina, Afghanistan (debated) and China. And Australia too I think.

[zapta]

Just watched Machete Kills on netflix. Elon Musk has a short appearance at the end, playing himself, when Machete is launched to space using a Space X rocket to fight Voz (Mel Gibson).

[MacAttak]

Interesting somewhat related news: http://www.bidnessetc.com/22065-tesla-to-collaborate-with-bmw-nissan-stock-rallies/

If it works out then that would be awesome to have Nissan and BMW on board for compatible charging stations. Leafs are quite popular out here (nearly free as a lease with the tax credits). I'm not familiar with BMW's EV offerings although I do know their hybrids are laughable (almost no point in getting one).

[Poe]

So a trade magazine recently came out (shortly before this announcement if I'm not mistaken) which talked about the US government regulations regarding these chargers. 

I wonder if that had anything to do with this decision.

 

[MacAttak]

So a trade magazine recently came out (shortly before this announcement if I'm not mistaken) which talked about the US government regulations regarding these chargers. 

I wonder if that had anything to do with this decision.

 

Do you have a link?

[Poe]

So a trade magazine recently came out (shortly before this announcement if I'm not mistaken) which talked about the US government regulations regarding these chargers. 

I wonder if that had anything to do with this decision.

 

Do you have a link?

May 7th Electronic Design magazine:
http://electronicdesign.com/power-sources/assess-challenges-next-generation-ev-charging

If you can't read it without registering... 
    Just do a Google search for the title "assess the challenges of next-generation ev charging".  For some reason they have links to the full article and links to articles in which you need to register.

It was interesting to find out that there are apparently three standards with Tesla's standard used on the smallest share of chargers.

[Noise Floor]

Mixed feelings on this, in sum its a good first step.  However until Tesla the company commits their CEO's words to a legal document no car company worth any salt will even begin considering doing something utilizing Tesla's patents.  Even though this move is already self serving (which I don't blame them for at all) Tesla needs to do a lot more to make this an offer that other companies can take seriously.

[MacAttak]

I can definitely understand the concern about the affects of fast-charging on the power grid. My understanding (when it comes to the Tesla supercharging stations in particular) is that they intend to come back and install PV coverings over the charging stalls to help reduce some of the load on the local grid. But the top priority is getting the network of stations up and working asap so people can travel long distances without anxiety. Fast-charging stations are irrelevant > 90% of the time you would be driving (talking about average drivers here). You only care about it if you happen to need more than your max range in a single day. For me, I would *never* need more than the 265 mile range of my MS unless on a long road trip. At all other times you are keeping the batteries topped-off overnight using a much lower current draw (it doesn't need to be fast at home).

I just stopped at a supercharger station for the first time on a trip to south Georgia this weekend. That sucker was pulling 85 kW! I was the only one at the station, but with all 8 stalls in operation a single station could have up to a 400 kW draw (limits to 100 kW per pair of stalls).

[MacAttak]

Mixed feelings on this, in sum its a good first step.  However until Tesla the company commits their CEO's words to a legal document no car company worth any salt will even begin considering doing something utilizing Tesla's patents.  Even though this move is already self serving (which I don't blame them for at all) Tesla needs to do a lot more to make this an offer that other companies can take seriously.

I don't know how much more clear a commitment can be made. He came out and went on public record with those statements, and it was also posted through his blog, twitter account, and as a news story on the company's website.

About the only thing left to interpretation is the meaning of "in good faith" as it was used in the announcement. However, I would assume that it would follow the legal meaning of the phrase: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_faith_(law)

In contract law, the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing is a general presumption that the parties to a contract will deal with each other honestly, fairly, and in good faith, so as to not destroy the right of the other party or parties to receive the benefits of the contract. It is implied in every contract in order to reinforce the express covenants or promises of the contract. A lawsuit (or a cause of action) based upon the breach of the covenant may arise when one party to the contract attempts to claim the benefit of a technical excuse for breaching the contract, or when he or she uses specific contractual terms in isolation in order to refuse to perform his or her contractual obligations, despite the general circumstances and understandings between the parties.

[free_electron]

I just stopped at a supercharger station for the first time on a trip to south Georgia this weekend. That sucker was pulling 85 kW!

Do the same with a battery that is down to 30 miles and prepare for a shock ...

At the Gilroy charger with 62 miles left : 369 Volt , 324 Ampere. That's 119 Kilowatts... And we were with 9 cars slurping from the electron-spout...
In europe they are rolling out 160Kw chargers (US charger will follow soon)

I talked to one guy there that had 70K miles on his. He supercharged twice a day. Recup'd the cost of the car months ago purely in fuel saving.

Model S 85Kw - Grey - techPack - Air Suspension - Upgraded Audio - Glass roof