Problems with Gossen Metrahit Energy Meters

[EEVblog]

Looks like there are few issues with the Gossen Metrahit Energy meter.
I upgraded the firmware in mine to the latest 1.04 and LOST THE CALIBRATION VALUES!
My meter is now out of whack by a significant margin.

Gossen sent me instruction on how to possibly recover the values, but it didn't work. Waiting on a response to that...

And Richard.W found a bug in the firmware that causes the dB readout values to read low at higher frequencies. I also confirmed this, and Gossen admitted it was a bug. Waiting a response on that one too.

Just a heads-up for those with the Energy meter, or thinking of getting one.

Dave.

[IanB]

The old adage comes to mind: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

What was the expected improvement when upgrading to 1.04?

[EEVblog]

What was the expected improvement when upgrading to 1.04?

Don't know. I had a very early unit, and Gossen emailed me the firmware and recommended I upgrade as it fixed "a few issues". Sounded like a good idea to me.
BTW, it doesn't usually lose the calibration data after a firmware update, Gossen said it's only a rare occurrence. Maybe I had a combination of firmware that produced the problem...

Dave.

[jahonen]

I can also confirm the frequency response problem. In fact, Richard W. contacted me too.

Mine also has quite early firmware, 1.00. Present firmware on my unit works quite well for me. It seems that there are some issues to iron out in the firmware upgrade process (I think that firmware upgrades are always a delicate thing). Is there a way to make a backup of the calibration factors before actual upgrade or are they "write only"?

Regards,
Janne

[EEVblog]

I can also confirm the frequency response problem. In fact, Richard W. contacted me too.

Mine also has quite early firmware, 1.00. Present firmware on my unit works quite well for me. It seems that there are some issues to iron out in the firmware upgrade process (I think that firmware upgrades are always a delicate thing). Is there a way to make a backup of the calibration factors before actual upgrade or are they "write only"?

Gossen said it was supposed to keep some sort of backup in internal memory, and there is serial command to recover it, but that didn't work for me.
Don't know about backup via serial etc.

Dave.

[alm]

And Richard W found a bug in the firmware that causes the dB readout values to read low at higher frequencies. I also confirmed this, and Gossen admitted it was a bug. Waiting a response on that one too.

Is it correct in ACV mode? How did they manage to screw this up? Are they using different calibration data for dB than for V?

[jahonen]

And Richard W found a bug in the firmware that causes the dB readout values to read low at higher frequencies. I also confirmed this, and Gossen admitted it was a bug. Waiting a response on that one too.

Is it correct in ACV mode? How did they manage to screw this up? Are they using different calibration data for dB than for V?

Yes, ACV mode has much better frequency response than in dB-mode.

Regards,
Janne

[Kiriakos-GR]

The most irritating part of Richard W. story with his Metrahit, is that Metrawatt had  put him on ice,
waiting for two months until they come up with a solution, and I suspect another 30 days of waiting for service and support until to get his unit back.
An total of three months.

In simple words  there is no cure up to date !!
The what ever solutions about it, are scheduled for Jan 2012.   

Richard W.  returned the unit back for refund, at the Conrad  e-shop, and got his money back.
My congrats to Conrad , it is a serious store , and worth's some credit.   
 

[Achilles]

Yes, putting somebody on the waiting line for several months is inacceptable. They could at least offer him a replacement or another meter until his one's is repaired. Suggest somebody who really need's it for work. Option1: Buy another one and hope it to be OK Option 2: Take a long holiday

It isn't just the Product, it is also service that get paid when you buy it. When they don't offer any service you have been paying a lot too much. Things can fail, and Quality Supervisors are also just humans. So bad product can make it on the market...regardless if Gossen, Uni-T, Extech, Agilent or Fluke..... it comes to fine differences when these problems have to be solved.....

Regarding to conrad: They are very big around here in Germany. I am not sure if it is the number one supplier for electronic components and metrological equipment, but I could really believe if somebody says they are. So they have to do sth. for the customers, because others may be cheaper. They aren't too expensive, too...so that's ok.

[Richard W.]

In fact, Richard W. contacted me too.

First i thought the wrong readings were a operator-related problem. So i asked Dave and Janne.
I also wrote a mail to the service of Metrawatt. Eight days later i got the response and they confirmed the problem.
I guess i was the first user who recognized the bug.

Code: [Select]

frequency     true     displayed
1kHz            5V      4,7724V
5kHz            5V      4,3748V
10kHz           5V      4,3380V
I haven't done a whole series  would have been interesting...

Is it correct in ACV mode? How did they manage to screw this up? Are they using different calibration data for dB than for V?

ACV-Mode is absolutely in spec. I tested it up to several hundred kilohertz sine and rectangular, worked impressively good.

The most irritating part of Richard W. story with his Metrahit, is that Metrawatt had  put him on ice,
waiting for two months until they come up with a solution, and I suspect another 30 days of waiting for service and support until to get his unit back.
An total of three months.

In fact they said 2-3 weeks until the new firmware should be ready. Weeks, not months 
But they asked me not to send it in before december. Plus 1 week for updating it and sending back it would have been 1 month in total.
Shipping should have been fast, because Metrawatt Service Center is only 140km away. (In australian scale: neighbourhood  )
Updating it by myself would have been possible (if i had the USB cable).

Richard W.  returned the unit back for refund, at the Conrad  e-shop, and got his money back.
My congrats to Conrad , it is a serious store , and worth's some credit.   

I bought and returned the meter at the local Conrad-Shop in Wernberg. There was absolutely no problem. Really great service 

[Kiriakos-GR]

The most irritating part of Richard W. story with his Metrahit, is that Metrawatt had  put him on ice,
waiting for two months until they come up with a solution, and I suspect another 30 days of waiting for service and support until to get his unit back.
An total of three months.

In fact they said 2-3 weeks until the new firmware should be ready. Not weeks, not month 
But they asked me not to send it in before december. Plus 1 week for updating it and sending back it would have been 1 month in total.
Shipping should have been fast, because Metrawatt Service Center is only 140km away. (In australian scale: neighbourhood  )
Updating it by myself would have been possible (if i had the USB cable).

Hi Richard , your words at the rant box, was that they had informed you to not send the meter before the end of December.
The last that I am looking for my self, are to look like of a source of misinformation.

[Kiriakos-GR]

I got a PM from Richard......... the message was:   send it to us before December ..

Ok my fault about the translation,  but now the story changes route .

If so, the return back to the store looks unjustified.
Two weeks for a solution and even a third week about sorting out the problem does not justifies the return to the shop.

Not all people think the same or act the same, but this is my opinion.   

Other factors possibly influence his opinion, like the extra 250Euros data-cable, or the fact that other brands offers solutions with data-logging for less. 

My public apologies to Metrawatt ...   
Thanks.

[Wartex]

Gossen Metrashit.

[Achilles]

Gossen Metrashit.

Let's see when they solved that problem and how long it will take. At least Dave is waiting for a solution I guess. It wouldn't get me to desire a Gossen anyway. At least the Metrahit Energy is a bit overpriced for my pocket....not to mention the accesories. For that pricerange I'd consider a superb service....

[EEVblog]

Other factors possibly influence his opinion, like the extra 250Euros data-cable, or the fact that other brands offers solutions with data-logging for less. 

Gossen meters aren't something you buy if you have to even mention the price!

Dave.

[Richard W.]

If so, the return back to the store looks unjustified.
Two weeks for a solution and even a third week about sorting out the problem does not justifies the return to the shop.

That all was not the problem. In fact, it would have been a good reason to get the USB cable. 

And maybe i would have accepted the issues in the dB-range because i don't need this function and there are only some values missing and no physical defect. (I only discovered the issue it by accident.)

But as i heard Dave's story, i was very worried.
Obviously are there some further issues with the meter, its software and the updates.

The Thing is i decided to buy one of the most accurate and most functional meter from Gossen Metrawatt because i wanted to rely on this meter. I don't want to boast with my equipment, i want to use it.
But if i can not rely on this meter... there is no reason why to keep it.  I hope my decision is comprehensible.

[Kiriakos-GR]

The last months I am dealing with any problem of my, with allot of humor that is my only shield.

After all this: Fluke Fail / UNI-T Fail / Agilent Fail .. the addition of the Gossen Fail,
leads me in the conclusion that it is gets harder by the day, to remain as a proud funboy of any brand.    

[Achilles]

who ever wants to be a fanboy..... that more sounds like an idiotic "I buy because it's that brand"-guy for me...... the name doesn't matter. Quality, functionality and service matters.
...but I would agree that the "felt" quality has declined over the years. Maybe the quality getting worse because the are developed for shorter life circles or thrown on the market to keep competition going on (like with digital cameras) and let the people consume. Maybe it's higher output rates by the factory which couldn't be tested or serviced like before....maybe they outsource development and haven't tested or integrated it long enough.
There are millions of reasons what could be. That is one reason why I usually buy stuff that is on the market for a while. When there is a problem and it is a serious manufacturer it is more likely to have solved that a year after launch than a week after product launch

PS: maybe we are also experiencing less quality because of better worldwide communication. Especially in the last few years, communication and ranting in blogs, on amazon and so on rised a lot. Before all that social-network boom you had a problem and reported that to the manufacturer to be fixed and waited.
Today you report it to the manufacturer and go to a forum, blog, youtube or where-ever to rant about it and share experiences.
(That isn't meant in any negative way Richard....)

[IanB]

I think that if you pay the price asked for a Gossen Metrawatt meter, you really expect the quality and dependability to be exceptional. You don't expect them to mess up. Otherwise, what exactly are you paying for?

[Achilles]

Japp, totally agree. The same with Fluke and so on. That is usually what you pay for, but it doesn't need to be what you get

They still have chances to correct the issues they have with the Metrahit Energy, but I think when these issues make their circles through the blogs and forums, every week they loos a lot of potential customers.
...But to be fair...... the Fluke289 freezing problem isn't solved, too....or is it right now?! So some more manufacturers need to do their homework, not just Gossen Metrawatt.

[Richard W.]

The meter costs 810€+VAT which is 963,90€ in total (about 1327,96 US$)

I think it is the case that if you pay the price asked for a Gossen Metrawatt meter, you really expect the quality and dependability to be exceptional. You don't expect them to mess up.

Absolutely.

[jahonen]

For me, the Metrahit Energy has been a very good user experience, unlike my previous Fluke 89IV, which has quite a few hardware problems, like progressively more flaky rotary switch (I'm trying to send it to Fluke and see if I can get it fixed for free) and high battery consumption. The key feature for me, and the reason why I got Metrahit Energy is the power/energy measurement function. Last time I checked, there is no equivalent Fluke meter available in that respect, other than way more expensive power quality analyzer.

I'm currently checking thermostat temperature settings of our refrigerators with a Pt100 RTD and logging function to minimize the energy consumption with few iterations. I have already found one flaky thermostat (too cold) which needs fixing. I think Fluke does not support temperature readings via Pt100/1000. One could always use a thermocouple, but still. RTD wires are easier to extend ad-hoc and one can enter the lead resistance to remove the error related to that. The possibility to use an AC-adaptor is a big bonus if one does much long-period logging to avoid eating truckloads of batteries. And a positive surprise for me, is that I'm still using my first set of batteries (those which delivered with MetraHit Energy), unlike Fluke which has eaten truckload of them in the meantime.

I'm personally not so worried about software issues, since they will get eventually fixed, if the manufacturer is respectable, something I expect Gossen to be. I don't blame them if they manage to fail sometimes, I expect them to sort it out with no fuss no muss. For hardware/mechanical faults, things are always more difficult. For me, the acceptable solution would be a command or a tool which could be used to make a reliable backup of all the calibration factors, and if any problem occurs in the upgrade process, then I could restore them from the backup. Of course, delicate operations like firmware upgrade should be initially made as bullet-proof as possible.

Regards,
Janne

[Kiriakos-GR]

So some more manufacturers need to do their homework, not just Gossen Metrawatt.

The point is that we lost the chance to see if Gossen Metrawatt will stand and keep their promises.

Currently the award about fast solving firmware issues stays to Agilent.
And this opinion have be formed from what I have see in the EEV in the last two years or so.
 

[mikeselectricstuff]

The meter costs 810€+VAT which is 963,90€ in total (about 1327,96 US$)

I think it is the case that if you pay the price asked for a Gossen Metrawatt meter, you really expect the quality and dependability to be exceptional. You don't expect them to mess up.

Absolutely.

..and if there is a firmware issue you expect to be able to get it fixed quickly without sending it back, like Agilent did by sending out a free USB lead.
And if an update hoses the cal data, you should expect a fast & free recal with carriage paid both ways.   
There will always be bugs & other problems even in the best products - the best measure of any manufacturer is how well they deal with problems, and you expect the more expensive brands to perform better. If they don't, it devalues their name, which is sometimes the only reason that people choose them instead of the cheaper competition.

[jahonen]

A small update about this issue, I also got a firmware upgrade from Gossen for the Metrahit Energy (1.07). First glitch was that the update program refused to work on my Win 7 box, it didn't seem to find the meter, although it entered the "boot" mode as expected. After some head-scratching, I used XP one instead, this time the update was flashed successfully without any problems.



It appears that in my case all calibration data was correctly retained and the meter works principally as before. But of course, I can't do a full performance verification, just a quick sanity check. I assume that in Dave's case, the errors were quite significant.

And, I also checked if the frequency response problem Richard discovered is fixed in this version. And yes, 1.07 seems to make a difference, no significant droop anymore on the dB function.

Regards,
Janne