[HELP] HDMI 2.0 to MIPI-DSI / LVDS [SOLVED]

[Oneminde]

Once again, EEVblog to the rescue.

I'll try to keep the explanation as simple as possible: Firefly RK3288 Reloaded -> HDMI 2.0 out [4k 60Hz) -> Sharp 5.5" LS055D1SX04 3840 x 2160p 60 Hz IPS display.

The slightly longer explanation is as follows: I am attempting to use the Firefly as media hub / PC for my 4K LCD projector. There is a MIPI / LVDS 40 pin out [J13 on the Firefly pinout] on the Firefly, but the issue is that this 4K signal is limited to 30 Hz via the Rockchip RK3288 CPU - as far as I can tell reading the schematic. So, the only way to use the Firefly's 4K 60Hz option is via the HDMI 2.0 out which is 4K 60Hz. Now, for the monitor, my goal is to use the 5.5" Sharp IPS panel. This panel support 60Hz so naturally, that is what I want. This display also happens to be used in the SONY Xperia Z5 Premium and is the only 4K smartphone on the market. Maybe that info matters and maybe not. But this is where I am.

PS: The display use MIPI-DSI 4 data lane 50 pin connector. (also referred to as FPC)

HDMI 2.0 - DisplayPort (eDP) 1.2 - MIPI-DSI v1.2 is needed for 3840 x 2160p at 60 Hz

So my question is: What can I use or how can I connect the HDMI 2.0 out to the display, what is needed

[poorchava]

Any reason for 4K on something as tiny as 5.5"?

Sent from my HTC One M8s using Tapatalk.

[Oneminde]

Any reason for 4K on something as tiny as 5.5"?

Sent from my HTC One M8s using Tapatalk.

Yes. LCD projector using back light projection through IPS panel. There is a 10.1" 4K 60Hz display with eDP interface, but I'm trying to keep the display as small as possible, hence the 5.5".

[dmg]

Toshiba has some HDMI to MIPI ic's and analog devices also have two IC families capable of getting HDMI and outputting MIPI, at least MIPI CSI. Problem? Good luck buying them without being an HDMI licensed member, not even shady channels like taobao work. Also, at least the analog devices ones were limited to 1080p not very long ago.

[bktemp]

PS: The display use MIPI-DSI 4 data lane 50 pin connector. (also referred to as FPC)

HDMI 2.0 - DisplayPort (eDP) 1.2 - MIPI-DSI v1.2 is needed for 3840 x 2160p at 60 Hz

So my question is: What can I use or how can I connect the HDMI 2.0 out to the display, what is needed

Short answer: If you have to ask, you can't build a HDMI->MIPI converter.

Do you have a datasheet for the display?
I doubt it really supports 3840x2160@60Hz with only 4 lanes:
3840*2160*60Hz*24bpp=12GBit/s = 3GBit/s per lane.
All MIPI transmitters I have seen support only upto 1-1.5GBit/s per lane.

Lower resolultions are much easier:
http://hackaday.com/2014/08/19/a-mipi-dsi-display-shieldhdmi-adapter/
Or you could use a SSD2828 instead of the FPGA.

[daveshah]

Just curious - have you found a way round the compression that panel normally uses? Looking at the kernel device tree entries for the Z5 Premium it appears to use some kind of Qualcomm proprietary FBC to get 4k 60fps over two 4-lane DSI channels.

[Oneminde]

Since I am still investigating a controller, I can't answer all the questions.

But here is panel spec on panelook.com: http://www.panelook.com/LS055D1SX04_SHARP_5.5_LCM_parameter_27124.html

Driver IC: COG Built-in NT35950 - This, to me, indicate that the panel have a driver IC which takes care of the signal that arrives. Then there is what SONY does in their circuits. Maybe I am way off when I say that the panel itself handle the data flow, but the display was not manufactured for SONY, they decided to use it. Sharp will launch their own 4K phone soon via their AQUOS series.

I am also aware of the hackerday project and maybe 4K support comes in the future.

I am also aware of the Toshiba chip TC358860XBG: VESA's Embedded Display Port (eDP™) ? MIPI® DSI (4K @ 60 Hz)
There is also: Texas Instruments SN65DSIx6-Q1 MIPI® DSI to eDP™ Bridge which is very similar: http://www.ti.com/product/SN65DSI86-Q1/datasheet

 

[Kilrah]

Driver IC: COG Built-in NT35950 - This, to me, indicate that the panel have a driver IC which takes care of the signal that arrives.

All this says is that there is a COG that takes whatever interface the display is supposed to work with (MIPI here) and generates the actual row/column signals to drive the pixels, like... every display nowadays.

There is also: Texas Instruments SN65DSIx6-Q1 MIPI® DSI to eDP™ Bridge which is very similar: http://www.ti.com/product/SN65DSI86-Q1/datasheet

This has TWO 4-lane DSI inputs, and both have to be used together (aka 8-line total) to get 4K@60p.

BTW I highly doubt you'd be able to source one of those displays in the first place before long given they're supposed to barely even be available to high volume manufacturers yet.

[TiN]

If you feeling like gamble, you can design base board for the Firefly core board (since projector application mentioned, you don't need much interfaces I'd expect?) and route native MIPI from the CPU to your LCD.
That will take you month or two, given experience in hi-speed serdes links, impedance matching and such  If it's one off project, it's cheaper to buy off the shelf 4K projector...

Toshiba TC358870XBG is HDMI 1.4 -> MIPI , but only UHD 30fps

[bktemp]

Aside from getting the 13Gbit/s into the display, you may also need an initialization sequence for the display. If you are lucky the standardized MIPI commands are enough to make the display work, but I have seen many MIPI displays that also required an additional initialization sequence. If you don't have a datasheet it is often impossible to turn the displays on.

[Oneminde]

Driver IC: COG Built-in NT35950 - This, to me, indicate that the panel have a driver IC which takes care of the signal that arrives.

All this says is that there is a COG that takes whatever interface the display is supposed to work with (MIPI here) and generates the actual row/column signals to drive the pixels, like... every display nowadays.

There is also: Texas Instruments SN65DSIx6-Q1 MIPI® DSI to eDP™ Bridge which is very similar: http://www.ti.com/product/SN65DSI86-Q1/datasheet

This has TWO 4-lane DSI inputs, and both have to be used together (aka 8-line total) to get 4K@60p.

BTW I highly doubt you'd be able to source one of those displays in the first place before long given they're supposed to barely even be available to high volume manufacturers yet.

You are right, to get 60Hz, you need dual port. I've done some more research and I'm on the right track. But will explore as much as possible before I reveal what.

- EDIT -
The display can be sourced as SONY Xperia Z5 Premium replacement display. Price; $184 usd 

[Oneminde]

If you feeling like gamble, you can design base board for the Firefly core board (since projector application mentioned, you don't need much interfaces I'd expect?) and route native MIPI from the CPU to your LCD.
That will take you month or two, given experience in hi-speed serdes links, impedance matching and such  If it's one off project, it's cheaper to buy off the shelf 4K projector...

Yes one can design around the Firefly. But 4K projector off the shelf is not cheaper. SONY's cost $8200 and IS the cheapest available atm.

[Kilrah]

JVC has one for $3900 AFAIK.

[Oneminde]

JVC has one for $3900 AFAIK.

"The JVC DLA-X500R is not true native 4K. This isn’t the first time that I have seen this written about a product, but it is the third iteration of its e-shift technology that can stimulate 4K with a pixel-shift process. The technology is able to shift diagonally to effectively make 4K. It might not be true 4K, but it is better than 1080p. Of course, the user can actually disable the 4K e-shift3 feature, which will enable you to get a decent 1080p image."

Source (among several that say the same): http://4k.com/projector/jvc-dla-x500r-4k-projector-review/

To my knowledge, atm and without Texas Instruments more affordable 4K DLP chip which will be released this spring followed by products at the end of 2016, the cheapest true 4K projector is SONY's. With that being over $8K, affordable might mean $3500-4000... maybe.

[Oneminde]

Well well, who knew. But I found it.

Basically, the solution gives me:

- Dual 4-lane MIPI-DSI D-PHY 1.2 or 2x MIPI-DSI 4-lane, 60fps, up to 4096×2160 (dual port) support.
- HDMI 2.0 out/in. Support for 4K 60Hz streaming capture and playback.
- Supports: Linux Kernal 4.4 aka Ubuntu 16.04 (LTS) Xenial Xerus.
- Support audio: 24bit/192kHz FLAC playback
- Offering seamless connectivity to external memory, sensors, and a host of other peripheral devices via the comprehensive list of configurable IO.

I would say that this is exactly what I am looking for. Within a 170mm x 170mm [6.69 x 6.69 in] physical size (for the board)

This mean that the computer and display is less than $800 usd and well within my $1500 total budget - and for that I get 4K@60Hz media hub projector - a non existing product.

 

[TiN]

And what is it?

P.S. Proper test gear, few 4-6layer PCB runs, components BOM cost and assembly cost of something DIY with links like this would cost about that sum of mentioned sony So it's close, and without guaranteed results. But lots of learning fun, that's for sure.

[Oneminde]

And what is it?

P.S. Proper test gear, few 4-6layer PCB runs, components BOM cost and assembly cost of something DIY with links like this would cost about that sum of mentioned sony So it's close, and without guaranteed results. But lots of learning fun, that's for sure.

Actually, with a mix of "its difficult" and "can't be done" mentality (in general), I were reluctant to disclose the exact solution. But since you ask so nicely, why not: Keyword: Snapdragon 820 development board. Essentially the same stuff SONY used to develop their Xperia Z5 Premium. But now, I have full access to whatever the Snapdragon 820 are capable of and that mean, fully fledged custom made PC that run the SHARP display without any limitations on input source (analogue and digital).

Rev.1 will be board used as is with expansion so that the Linux Kernel and connected devices works flawlessly - basically the prototype. SATA storage expandability and HiRes Audio out.
Rev.2 will be custom board "unlimited edition" - If I decide to make this available as a product release for the masses.

Sort of like that.

- A 3840 x 2160 p at 60Hz projector that runs cool thanks to very efficient neutral white 4500K LED's with a combined output of 4000-5000 lumens (typical max).
- Media hub, besides used as projector can stream HiRes audio out: 24bit/192kHz FLAC playback.
- The Ubuntu OS will allow for full experience in regards to media streaming.
- This is then paired with a high contrast projection screen/panel with extremely high contrast - OLED mimicry. Very deep and flat blacks with excellent light throwback. [also under development]
- Sub $2000 projected price point package.

[Kilrah]

- Dual 4-lane MIPI-DSI D-PHY 1.2 or 2x MIPI-DSI 4-lane, 60fps, up to 4096×2160 (dual port) support.

So 8 lanes confirmed. How are you sending that into the display that you said uses only 4?

Envoyé de mon SM-G930F en utilisant Tapatalk

[TiN]

Well, enjoy your solution (which is not a solution, utill it's on the table, doing it's thing), whatever it is Hopefully we will not see other threads "help! How to drive 4K LCD using xxx" poping up once you get all the hardware. Hope it will all work OOB for you.

[Oneminde]

- Dual 4-lane MIPI-DSI D-PHY 1.2 or 2x MIPI-DSI 4-lane, 60fps, up to 4096×2160 (dual port) support.

So 8 lanes confirmed. How are you sending that into the display that you said uses only 4?

How do one know what info you read and what is true or not... he he. BUT, it is a 4K 60Hz display and if you look at the data lanes in this picture which is the Sharp / SONY display, you will see 10 lanes. So 8 out of 10 is the data lanes.

[Oneminde]

Well, enjoy your solution (which is not a solution, utill it's on the table, doing it's thing), whatever it is Hopefully we will not see other threads "help! How to drive 4K LCD using xxx" poping up once you get all the hardware. Hope it will all work OOB for you.

Thanks

[iceryan]

Bravo, for exploring this project. I too have looked into the possibility and have learned from this post, and will share my resources on the matter:

>The OEM UHD 5.5" Z5P screen can be got here for approx. $100usd - http://www.etradesupply.com/sony-xperia-z5-premium-lcd-screen-and-digitizer-assembly-black.html

>Chinavasion sells a 3800lumen projector that has a 5.8 LCD panel in it that can be swapped out https://www.chinavasion.com/china/wholesale/LED_Projectors/HD_Projectors/3800-Lumens-HD-LED-Projector-White/

This is a good proof of concept start. The projector provides light, cooling, optics to project a 5.8 lcd.

Only thing missing is the controller between the UHD screen and being able to accept DP or HDMI 2.0 input.... If my friend, you can direct how to achieve that, I have my own PC/Mediabox sources to send out the signal UHD@60fps... great work, look forward to hearing back.

[Oneminde]

Bravo, for exploring this project. I too have looked into the possibility and have learned from this post, and will share my resources on the matter:

>The OEM UHD 5.5" Z5P screen can be got here for approx. $100usd - http://www.etradesupply.com/sony-xperia-z5-premium-lcd-screen-and-digitizer-assembly-black.html

>Chinavasion sells a 3800lumen projector that has a 5.8 LCD panel in it that can be swapped out https://www.chinavasion.com/china/wholesale/LED_Projectors/HD_Projectors/3800-Lumens-HD-LED-Projector-White/

This is a good proof of concept start. The projector provides light, cooling, optics to project a 5.8 lcd.

Only thing missing is the controller between the UHD screen and being able to accept DP or HDMI 2.0 input.... If my friend, you can direct how to achieve that, I have my own PC/Mediabox sources to send out the signal UHD@60fps... great work, look forward to hearing back.

Sure thing, the electronics as for now is the Snapdragon 820 dev board. Essentially the same stuff driving the SONY Xperia Z5 Premium phone. There are a few options, but Intrisyc Open Q 820 have MIPI out, dual connector which makes it possible to drive the LCD at 4K 60 hertz. Price is around $550. There are other options I will explore as well.

[iceryan]

Bravo, for exploring this project. I too have looked into the possibility and have learned from this post, and will share my resources on the matter:

>The OEM UHD 5.5" Z5P screen can be got here for approx. $100usd - http://www.etradesupply.com/sony-xperia-z5-premium-lcd-screen-and-digitizer-assembly-black.html

>Chinavasion sells a 3800lumen projector that has a 5.8 LCD panel in it that can be swapped out https://www.chinavasion.com/china/wholesale/LED_Projectors/HD_Projectors/3800-Lumens-HD-LED-Projector-White/

This is a good proof of concept start. The projector provides light, cooling, optics to project a 5.8 lcd.

Only thing missing is the controller between the UHD screen and being able to accept DP or HDMI 2.0 input.... If my friend, you can direct how to achieve that, I have my own PC/Mediabox sources to send out the signal UHD@60fps... great work, look forward to hearing back.

Sure thing, the electronics as for now is the Snapdragon 820 dev board. Essentially the same stuff driving the SONY Xperia Z5 Premium phone. There are a few options, but Intrisyc Open Q 820 have MIPI out, dual connector which makes it possible to drive the LCD at 4K 60 hertz. Price is around $550. There are other options I will explore as well.

Cool...! Does it allow total passthru of HDMI to the display, or must there be some type of OS in the middle...?

[Oneminde]

Bravo, for exploring this project. I too have looked into the possibility and have learned from this post, and will share my resources on the matter:

>The OEM UHD 5.5" Z5P screen can be got here for approx. $100usd - http://www.etradesupply.com/sony-xperia-z5-premium-lcd-screen-and-digitizer-assembly-black.html

>Chinavasion sells a 3800lumen projector that has a 5.8 LCD panel in it that can be swapped out https://www.chinavasion.com/china/wholesale/LED_Projectors/HD_Projectors/3800-Lumens-HD-LED-Projector-White/

This is a good proof of concept start. The projector provides light, cooling, optics to project a 5.8 lcd.

Only thing missing is the controller between the UHD screen and being able to accept DP or HDMI 2.0 input.... If my friend, you can direct how to achieve that, I have my own PC/Mediabox sources to send out the signal UHD@60fps... great work, look forward to hearing back.

Sure thing, the electronics as for now is the Snapdragon 820 dev board. Essentially the same stuff driving the SONY Xperia Z5 Premium phone. There are a few options, but Intrisyc Open Q 820 have MIPI out, dual connector which makes it possible to drive the LCD at 4K 60 hertz. Price is around $550. There are other options I will explore as well.

Cool...! Does it allow total passthru of HDMI to the display, or must there be some type of OS in the middle...?

Pass through, well, you need an OS, either Android or Linux. Essentially, you could use it as a slave and have another main computer I guess

[Kilrah]

That's the main problem, none of these boards can just take an HDMI/DP/whatrever input and convert it, so you can't have a "real" projector that is simply a "passive" display device you can connect anything to.
Everything will have to be played by/processed on the board.

One thing I'm dubious of and that was never talked of but is nearly more important is the quality of the optics. I doubt anything you can easily obtain is worth sending a 4K picture through. Not much worth the trouble to create a 4K display part and end with a muddy projected image full of distorsion and chromatic aberration.

[Oneminde]

Not sure who you are replying to Kilrah or if it is just in general, but I'll take a shot at it.

Yes, you need to run things localy, aka have an OS. Snapdragon support both Android and Linux. Dev board can have external HDD - so, solved.

When it comes to optics, yes, this is extremely important, but its not a problem. There are plenty of suppliers for optics out there. Optics is the single most expensive part of any projectors because good glass is expensive.

If there is a will then there is a solution.

[RyanD]

I'm looking for something like this too. Is this what we are looking for? https://world.taobao.com/item/523130602739.htm#detail

Or this seems to be the one I would want: https://world.taobao.com/item/45396966558.htm?id=45396966558&scm=1007.12006.39884.i523130602739&pvid=4908172e-0f8f-4df3-b2b5-db31fbfcde12

Does this come with everything I need to run the experia display? Thanks

[Oneminde]

Hello.

No that's not my solution, what I went for is more or less a complete PC. Intrinsyc Open-Q 820 - allow for full Linux or Windows OS, external HDD's and much more. You can essentially use it as a media hub and 4K projector turning the project into two purposes. One DLP printer and one 4K projector / media hub. The reasons I wanted this one is so that the printer have all its hardware located on one board.

The Snapdragon 820 dev board is essentially the same hardware that is running the Sony Xperia Z5 Premium but it keeps all the input/output allowing you to use it as a normal computer.

I will however check your links.

https://www.intrinsyc.com/snapdragon-embedded-development-kits/snapdragon-820-development-kit/

[kony]

Please do keep posting updates on this, migtht be in future crafted into something even more interesting than a projector.

[Oneminde]

I'm looking for something like this too. Is this what we are looking for? https://world.taobao.com/item/523130602739.htm#detail

Or this seems to be the one I would want: https://world.taobao.com/item/45396966558.htm?id=45396966558&scm=1007.12006.39884.i523130602739&pvid=4908172e-0f8f-4df3-b2b5-db31fbfcde12

Does this come with everything I need to run the experia display? Thanks

If you look at the specs, its 4K@30Hz which is the whole issue with these devices. 30Hz is too low to bother. So far, the only card that will give you 60Hz is the Snapdragon 820/821. But, a custom card can be made based upon this processor, that is if anyone wants to... he he. The Open-Q 820 is more than fine for me.

Oneminde

[RyanD]

30 hz is fine for me I'm making an SLA printer. I'm just worried that I buy this board and the xperia screen but find out the connector is different and unable to figure out the solution. Do you think this thing would plug and play the xperia z5 premium screen? it says it outputs mipi dsi 8 lane does that automatically tell me it will run the xperia screen if all i know is that it seems like that screen is mipi dsi and since it's UHD it must be 8 lane?

Do you know of a better solution for running these phone screens at 30hz from displayport or other common port? I need a small UHD screen for very cheap to make my 3d printer a reality.

[Oneminde]

30 hz is fine for me I'm making an SLA printer. I'm just worried that I buy this board and the xperia screen but find out the connector is different and unable to figure out the solution. Do you think this thing would plug and play the xperia z5 premium screen? it says it outputs mipi dsi 8 lane does that automatically tell me it will run the xperia screen if all i know is that it seems like that screen is mipi dsi and since it's UHD it must be 8 lane?

Do you know of a better solution for running these phone screens at 30hz from displayport or other common port? I need a small UHD screen for very cheap to make my 3d printer a reality.

The Open-Q 820 states:

- 2x MIPI-DSI 4-lane, 60fps, up to 2560×1600 (single port), 4096×2160 (dual port) - that is 8 lanes.
- 1x HDMI 2.0 up to 4096×2160, 60fps

I am no expert but the refresh rate aka Hz is in part due to HDMI version. 30Hz is HDMI 1.4 and 60Hz is HDMI 2.0 and in part how video is handled in the processor and ofc software.

You only need 30Hz for the printer, that is true, but you ask if the display is capable of running at 30Hz rather than it's native 60Hz and that I don't know. I think it would, but don't take that as a defined answer. Unless someone ells can definitely say yes it will, I think what you need to do is test it. Buy one of the boards you posted and test.

There is also this board by Hackaday that you can check out.

https://hackaday.io/project/364-mipi-dsi-display-shieldhdmi-adapter

[Kilrah]

I would not expect to be able to connect an 8-lane 60p capable display to a board that only supports 4 lanes/30p.

[Oneminde]

I would not expect to be able to connect an 8-lane 60p capable display to a board that only supports 4 lanes/30p.

The two boards you linked to is duel 4 lane, aka 8 lanes. Give one of them a go. In fact, I might consider one of them for the printer and the Open-Q for the media hub projector.

[RyanD]

Ok I get paid this week so I'll drop the $160 on the board and screen and well see how it goes.

[Oneminde]

Ok I get paid this week so I'll drop the $160 on the board and screen and well see how it goes.

Kewl. Which of the boards ?

[Kilrah]

Yep, which board?
If you refer to this, which I assume given the price you quote:

Or this seems to be the one I would want: https://world.taobao.com/item/45396966558.htm?id=45396966558&scm=1007.12006.39884.i523130602739&pvid=4908172e-0f8f-4df3-b2b5-db31fbfcde12

From the description this does NOT come with a board, it's only a bunch of specs, documentation and development tools, the board only comes with the $750 package you also linked to.

[Oneminde]

Yep, which board?
If you refer to this, which I assume given the price you quote:

Or this seems to be the one I would want: https://world.taobao.com/item/45396966558.htm?id=45396966558&scm=1007.12006.39884.i523130602739&pvid=4908172e-0f8f-4df3-b2b5-db31fbfcde12

From the description this does NOT come with a board, it's only a bunch of specs, documentation and development tools, the board only comes with the $750 package you also linked to.

Interesting, so as far as you can tell, the link forward you to the adapter board and not the processing board. Good to know.

[Kilrah]

Not even, seems there's no hardware at all with the $75 pack, only doc/software tools.

3. Evaluation Board Package Description:
In order to meet the different needs of developers, this product launch 3 different price points and different content packages:
Package A: containing only IC information and some debugging tools to assist the developer to complete the project.
Package II: contains a package of information, and includes a hardware evaluation board and evaluation board schematics, for developers and hardware verification reference.
Package III: Package A and Package II contains, and contains its driver source file, developers can make a direct secondary development.

The "Package II Click here:HDMI to MIPI_TC358870XBG virtual evaluation board _ helmet" link points to the $750 package, so the $75 is obviously the "Package A" description.
There's a link to "Package III" but it's broken.
Package II seems to have the eval board, but no display or display adapter.

[Oneminde]

Not even, seems there's no hardware at all with the $75 pack, only doc/software tools.

3. Evaluation Board Package Description:
In order to meet the different needs of developers, this product launch 3 different price points and different content packages:
Package A: containing only IC information and some debugging tools to assist the developer to complete the project.
Package II: contains a package of information, and includes a hardware evaluation board and evaluation board schematics, for developers and hardware verification reference.
Package III: Package A and Package II contains, and contains its driver source file, developers can make a direct secondary development.

The "Package II Click here:HDMI to MIPI_TC358870XBG virtual evaluation board _ helmet" link points to the $750 package, so the $75 is obviously the "Package A" description.
There's a link to "Package III" but it's broken.
Package II seems to have the eval board, but no display or display adapter.

I C. Kinda ripping people off. Its better to get the datasheet for the Toshiba processor they are using - for free - and design a board around it. Or get the Hackaday board since its complete and support 30Hz.

[RyanD]

The hackaday board does only 1080p it can not do 4k, so there's nothing there to be had.

http://imgur.com/a/yhMGS

Designing a new board sounds fun, but I've never done anything like that before and this seems like a pretty difficult project for a first foray into board design.

[RyanD]

Not even, seems there's no hardware at all with the $75 pack, only doc/software tools.

3. Evaluation Board Package Description:
In order to meet the different needs of developers, this product launch 3 different price points and different content packages:
Package A: containing only IC information and some debugging tools to assist the developer to complete the project.
Package II: contains a package of information, and includes a hardware evaluation board and evaluation board schematics, for developers and hardware verification reference.
Package III: Package A and Package II contains, and contains its driver source file, developers can make a direct secondary development.

The "Package II Click here:HDMI to MIPI_TC358870XBG virtual evaluation board _ helmet" link points to the $750 package, so the $75 is obviously the "Package A" description.
There's a link to "Package III" but it's broken.
Package II seems to have the eval board, but no display or display adapter.

You're totally right, and at $750 it seems like a pretty bad deal, I think Oneminde's board is only $500.00. I'm still looking for a solution I mean a full on xperia z5 to drive the screen would be less. But I need to run the software on my computer and push it to the screen and I don't think the z5 phone itself wants to play nice that way.

[Oneminde]

You're totally right, and at $750 it seems like a pretty bad deal, I think Oneminde's board is only $500.00. I'm still looking for a solution I mean a full on xperia z5 to drive the screen would be less. But I need to run the software on my computer and push it to the screen and I don't think the z5 phone itself wants to play nice that way.

Correct. Both Linux and Windows have edition for Snapdragon, or ARM edition as it also is know.
If there were a simple and cheaper way to run this display, I would be all over it.

[RyanD]

These guys claim to have the datasheet, but they only use some sort of odd currency called P-coins or want minimum $800.00 to access the database of datasheets for a year. Any ideas?

[Oneminde]

Yes I am aware of the situation. I have not found the data sheet either.

[RyanD]

Yes I am aware of the situation. I have not found the data sheet either.

Check your PM's

http://imgur.com/a/5UbHJ

Can I post the link to file here?

[Oneminde]

Can I post the link to file here?

That is up to you since its your effort. Very happy about the fact that you manage to access the PDF. Thanks buddy.

Oneminde

[ebclr]

Just 62 bucks

? 4 inches 800x480 pixel TFT color LCD with
MIPI DSI interface and capacitive touch screen


http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/STMicroelectronics/STM32F469I-DISCO/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtavWIq7L07Bc86AqLmH32VNudgwLb3e3F2joTf0OIx%252bw%3d%3d

[Oneminde]

Just 62 bucks

? 4 inches 800x480 pixel TFT color LCD with
MIPI DSI interface and capacitive touch screen


http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/STMicroelectronics/STM32F469I-DISCO/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtavWIq7L07Bc86AqLmH32VNudgwLb3e3F2joTf0OIx%252bw%3d%3d

Perhaps you missed the BIG point of this thread. Its not about a random LCD screen, its about Sharps smallest 4K resolution screen, primarily for diy SLA printer, but can also be used as a projector for TV and movie.

[ebclr]

Like this one

https://world.taobao.com/item/526539812885.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a312a.7700824.w4004-3892407275.19.LN59CH

[Oneminde]

Like this one

https://world.taobao.com/item/526539812885.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a312a.7700824.w4004-3892407275.19.LN59CH

That display is not 4K, its only 1440 x 2160 pixels.

4K UHD is a resolution of 3840 pixels × 2160 and the specific display is Sharp 5.5" LS055D1SX04.

Seriously, did you even read the first entry in this thread? coz its all there. The entire thread is based upon the Sharp display and how to run it which has been solved. Other options than the Open-Q 820 dev board might be possible, but its the best one so far.

[Kilrah]

Most of his posts regardless of topic either completely miss the point, don't mean anything or are plain wrong. Just ignore...

[Oneminde]

There is always that individual, but, clarification is sometimes in order, or to just remind old and new thread reader's of the purpose.

This thread was solved many posts ago, but the interest is intact. Perhaps because the cheapest 4K projector you can purchase is over $8000. Even if you spend $1000 on optics for the diy projector, you are no way near the cost of the SONY model. One reason is that the SONY uses the Texas Instrument DLP chip while this whole thread promotes an LCD based version which so far is not available, certainly not 4K@60Hz which is the minimum of interest. 4K@30Hz is not okay and never was.

I've probably posted this before, but here is the new DLP chip that will find its way into cheaper 4K projectors at the end of this year. Lets see how "cheap" they get.

[RyanD]

Yeah I had high hopes for the TI DMD chip, but it's also really expensive. It looks like the sharp display has to be driven at 60hz. says 60 is min and 60 is max so guess we're on the snapdragon board for sure since 30 hz isn't even an option.

[Oneminde]

Yeah I had high hopes for the TI DMD chip, but it's also really expensive. It looks like the sharp display has to be driven at 60hz. says 60 is min and 60 is max so guess we're on the snapdragon board for sure since 30 hz isn't even an option.

There you go, you found your answer, and so did I ... he he, but on the other hand, I were never interested in 30Hz anyway. 30Hz does not matter for a printer unless you absolutely need 30 slices per second as a minimum, then it can pose a problem, but that is highly unlikely anyway.

So yes, for now, what we have is the Snapdragon 820 chip, but, they are starting to launch the 821 which have some performance increase and power savings. So an Open-Q 821 from Intrinsyc should not be to far away... if its of any interest that is.

https://www.qualcomm.com/news/snapdragon/2016/07/11/snapdragon-821-builds-820-processor-success

The positive about the dev board is that you can actually use it as a server point, stream video from a host computer, wireless - out of many things. That is kinda cool. Unless one want to go simpler and make it as a PC on its own, many options here. I'm not going to share everything I've been thinking about, but there are much to do that in fact, done right, will beat any commercial unit.

Oneminde

[RyanD]

Conversation about driving this display:

http://imgur.com/a/Mhprg

It looks like we need to get the drivers from the xperia z5p or find some sort of open source driver for it? Is this something someone on XDA might just have from dumping the phone or making a custom kernel or something? Right now all I'm doing is gathering the pieces

1. We have the datasheet
2. I found someone who can make the HDMI-->MIPI DSI shield that can push 60hz.
3. Drivers from Z5P   ?

Anyone have ideas?

[Oneminde]

I have some inputs.

1. The Open-Q provides dual 4 data lane connection, aka 8 data lanes, needed to drive the display.

Display
    2x MIPI-DSI 4-lane, 60fps, up to 2560×1600 (single port), 4096×2160 (dual port)
    1x HDMI 2.0 up to 4096×2160, 60fps

OBS: Input signal need to be HDMI 2.0 for 60Hz which the board have.

2. No need for an external board, the Open-Q 820 has it all.

3. Drivers can be either Windows for ARM processor or Linux for ARM processors.

Windows = RT version: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_RT
Linux: http://news.softpedia.com/news/linux-kernel-3-14-74-lts-has-updated-drivers-arm-mips-and-x86-improvements-506772.shtml

The display is not specifically for Android, that is just an OS.

4: While searching, I found another board at a better price point. Still Snapdragon 820  - 4K@60Hz .. take a look.
https://eragon.einfochips.com/products/system-on-modules.html

Oneminde

[Oneminde]

Conversation about driving this display:

http://imgur.com/a/Mhprg

It looks like we need to get the drivers from the xperia z5p or find some sort of open source driver for it? Is this something someone on XDA might just have from dumping the phone or making a custom kernel or something? Right now all I'm doing is gathering the pieces

1. We have the datasheet
2. I found someone who can make the HDMI-->MIPI DSI shield that can push 60hz.
3. Drivers from Z5P   ?

Anyone have ideas?

Just a question. Did I misunderstand you, are you looking for a HDMI-->MIPI DSI shield that you can connect to any PC instead of the Open-Q ?

[RyanD]

Conversation about driving this display:

http://imgur.com/a/Mhprg

It looks like we need to get the drivers from the xperia z5p or find some sort of open source driver for it? Is this something someone on XDA might just have from dumping the phone or making a custom kernel or something? Right now all I'm doing is gathering the pieces

1. We have the datasheet
2. I found someone who can make the HDMI-->MIPI DSI shield that can push 60hz.
3. Drivers from Z5P   ?

Anyone have ideas?

Just a question. Did I misunderstand you, are you looking for a HDMI-->MIPI DSI shield that you can connect to any PC instead of the Open-Q ?

Yeah I think that's best. Everything has an HDMI port out. Including the Open Q you just showed. I need to be able to run this thing as if it were a projector and I don't want to go through the Open-Q unless I have to because I don't know anything about it. It seems like a breakout board for phone hardware but for my needs I'd much prefer to have just the display. Meanwhile the open-Q board is still supported because it looks like they all have HDMI out.

http://imgur.com/a/YzGhH

Are you saying the open Q can directly plug and play this display without a connector adapter? Even if it could though the program that Feeds data to the display with all my slices would have to go through this board and I don't know if I can run that program directly or effectively on the open-q. I think it's the cleanest solution to just add a functioning hdmi port to this display and then you can run it with whatever you want, however you want.

[Kilrah]

Given Oneminde has been going around this since April I'd kinda expect some posts about a working projector by now.

The absence of that smells like a lot of "yeah I found the thing that can in theory do what I want", but actually making it work is several years' work for an individual, so it'll never happen.

[Oneminde]

RyanD.

Yes, the Open-Q 820 can drive the display without a MIPI shield. While its not intended for the public domain as such, it can easily be used for our purpose. Also, if you use Windows RT or the Linux kernel for ARM processors, you can essentially extend the function by allowing the Open-Q to be an access point for your other machines. But, I think that since you can install Windows and Linux, they should be able to run normal software's, I can see any reasons why not (?)

But on the other hand, if we could get a MIPI shield that support 4K video at 60Hz resolution - that is HDMI 2.0 in to MIPI 8 data lanes - I am all for that. Essentially turning the display into a second monitor, perhaps even make it work over WiFi. That is kinda cool.

All I know is that my initial problem has been solved via the Open-Q since I needed 4K60Hz video - for media content - If this can be expanded, who knows what could happen.

Oneminde.

[Oneminde]

Given Oneminde has been going around this since April I'd kinda expect some posts about a working projector by now.

The absence of that smells like a lot of "yeah I found the thing that can in theory do what I want", but actually making it work is several years' work for an individual, so t'll never happen.

It has a simple answer: I am financially limited, I have many things on my plate atm, so can't go 100% into this. But hey, all the evidences are there. If the science was flawed, someone would have pointed it out already which would support your suspicion. But no such thing has happened. If you can find a flaw in how to drive this display, I welcome it. In fact, it would be very productive.

So far, we have.

1. Sharp 5.5" LS055D1SX04 3840 x 2160p 60 Hz IPS display.
2. Driver board as stated: Open-Q 820.
3. Build from scratch or repurpose a projector that uses an LCD as image source.

--- all of the above is a match ---

Oneminde

[Kilrah]

Again while in theory the hardware indeed supports everything you want to do, actually making it work is likely to be years' worth of a specialized professional's worth of work.
I'd love to see it, but until I do it isn't worth any more than the dozens of ideas I have but know there' s no way I can make them work on my own.

Assuming you had the money you'd get that board, only to find nobody will give you the doc and drivers to make it work unless you sign up to buy 100k units. That's how trade works these days.

[Oneminde]

I am not denying that there might be obstacles along the way, but humour me.

Windows RT works on ARM processors - which Snapdragon is. We install Windows RT and make it work. Since the display is not limited to a specific OS, what do you see as issues driving the display ?

[RyanD]

I don't think min order is 100,000. Maybe just 1000. I think the community has demand for 1000 boards. This is the absolute best VR display, sla print display and projector hack display. Nothing else available/exists has this pixel density. So applications where mad crazy pixel density matter this display delivers for $60.00 per display. Just $60!!! For 800+ pixels per inch that's outrageously good. Either way this thread is making progress or maybe it dies at the end and next time someone shows up wanting to drive a display you point them here and it becomes the definitive dead end for these kinds of projects. No matter what, this thread has value as is.

[RyanD]

I am not denying that there might be obstacles along the way, but humour me.

Windows RT works on ARM processors - which Snapdragon is. We install Windows RT and make it work. Since the display is not limited to a specific OS, what do you see as issues driving the display ?

The display needs specific proprietary or reverse engineered drivers. Just because the mipi dsi plug fits doesn't mean the open q or any other device can recognize or drive the display. The driver challenge is not solved by data sheet alone.

[Oneminde]

Okay, I will send Intrinsyc an email tomorrow and ask / verify if the board can drive the display.

Why would Sharp manufacture a display, include the driver IC but not the driver, that seams odd, and especially if you purchase the replacement display for the SONY phone, that display MUST have the driver on it.

[Kilrah]

My CHIP, Cubieboard, Cubietruck etc can all drive their display outputs and show basic stuff - but neither provide full graphics drivers, they only put out generic non-accelererated graphics that provide several orders of magnitude less performance than the hardware is capable of.
You want full performance? You convince the maufacturer you're going to order hundreds of thousands of parts for a consumer product that will significanltly boost their sales. Then they'll give you the driver they painfullly created through thousands of work hours. Otherwise you'll just get a paperweight and no doc to try to make your own stuff. They'll happily wait for a corporate entity to shell out and wouldn't risk any leak to anyone who doesn't look serious.

But regardless of all of that, the main point is - until you've proven it works, it's assumed not to.

BTW, your open-q 820 only provides an HDMI output, not an input as far as I can see.

[RyanD]

Essentially I could finish my project today.

 I would just gut an xperia Z5 Premium, and lay the screen out flat on a piece of glass. Then I would shine light through the glass while playing a video that was timed through ADB bridge. So I'd have to load my video onto the z5p I'd just need an android app that can play videos 1 frame at a time. I think VLC does this, then write some code that did:

Loop, #of total frames in video of slices
{
Advance 1 frame
MicroStep Z axis stepper motor 1 step
}
end

This isn't very elegant because the stepper is blind to the video and it's wasteful because I'm putting the Z5P a $500.00 phone in a printer to act essentially as a pass through. I'd much prefer to drive the display directly with systems that already exist for this that use a projector to stream the video with an integrated software solution to advance the Z axis accordingly. 

[RyanD]

Okay, I will send Intrinsyc an email tomorrow and ask / verify if the board can drive the display.

Why would Sharp manufacture a display, include the driver IC but not the driver, that seams odd, and especially if you purchase the replacement display for the SONY phone, that display MUST have the driver on it.

The Z5P phone has the driver, not the display. Getting the driver out of the phone or reverse engineering a new driver is the challenge.

[RyanD]

My CHIP, Cubieboard, Cubietruck etc can all drive their display outputs and show basic stuff - but neither provide full graphics drivers, they only put out generic non-accelererated graphics that provide several orders of magnitude less performance than the hardware is capable of.
You want full performance? You convince the maufacturer you're going to order hundreds of thousands of parts for a consumer product that will significanltly boost their sales. Then they'll give you the driver they painfullly created through thousands of work hours. Otherwise you'll just get a paperweight and no doc to try to make your own stuff. They'll happily wait for a corporate entity to shell out and wouldn't risk any leak to anyone who doesn't look serious.

But regardless of all of that, the main point is - until you've proven it works, it's assumed not to.

BTW, your open-q 820 only provides an HDMI output, not an input as far as I can see.

That's fine the open-q is a SoC in it's own right. So Openminde is suggesting installing windows RT on it and running all of his operations straight off the Open-Q like a PC with a built in display. I don't want to go through the open-Q because I want to run my software on a discrete desktop and just drive the display like a monitor. So I want to find some way to add a working HDMI input to the sharp LCD panel I want to leave all the actual work to my discrete graphics card and just deliver 60hz of 2160p video signal to the panel and run it.

Does that work or is there something I don't understand about this that would degrade the quality or performance of what was actually displaying even though the signal was sent from a discrete video card. I'm not sure if at the HDMI input something else happens to decode that would cause me a loss of some sort.

[Oneminde]

Interfaces
     Wi-Fi 802.11b/g/n/ac 2.4 / 5.0 GHz 2x2 MU-MIMO
     Bluetooth 4.1
    1x UART debug (USB micro-B)
    1x USB OTG micro-B
    1x USB 3.0 host, micro-AB
    2x USB 2.0 host, type A
    2x PCIe 1x mini PCIe v1.2, 1x PCIe X1 slot v2.1
    1x ?SD Socket
    8x Digital IO 4-pin port configurable as I2C, SPI, UART or GPIO

While it does not have a HDMI 2.0 in, as you can see, it has several inputs that allow for 4K60Hz video streaming. External HDD is supported on this card.

I absolutely get your point with drivers. Get the SONY display to work and produce a prototype, then get SHARP to agree on bulk buy. However, were does it state that the display is delivered without a driver ?

RyanD: I welcome your idea about a discrete PC, that would be the best option actually. I know Hackaday is working on a 60Hz version of the MIPI shield, but no info on exactly when this would happen.

[RyanD]

Interfaces
     Wi-Fi 802.11b/g/n/ac 2.4 / 5.0 GHz 2x2 MU-MIMO
     Bluetooth 4.1
    1x UART debug (USB micro-B)
    1x USB OTG micro-B
    1x USB 3.0 host, micro-AB
    2x USB 2.0 host, type A
    2x PCIe 1x mini PCIe v1.2, 1x PCIe X1 slot v2.1
    1x ?SD Socket
    8x Digital IO 4-pin port configurable as I2C, SPI, UART or GPIO

While it does not have a HDMI 2.0 in, as you can see, it has several inputs that allow for 4K60Hz video streaming. External HDD is supported on this card.

I absolutely get your point with drivers. Get the SONY display to work and produce a prototype, then get SHARP to agree on bulk buy. However, were does it state that the display is delivered without a driver ?

RyanD: I welcome your idea about a discrete PC, that would be the best option actually. I know Hackaday is working on a 60Hz version of the MIPI shield, but no info on exactly when this would happen.

The SONY phone, uses a SHARP display. That SHARP panel is on the SONY phone. Einhorn IS FINKLE! The SONY phone has the driver software (engineered by SONY with SHARP cooperation) for the SHARP display that we are trying to drive. SHARP will not bulk sell that panel to anyone AND SONY will not release their drivers to anyone, they probably can't legally do that anyway since SONY probably paid sharp to make that display for them only. Sharp's already done manufacturing it entirely. SHARP has moved on, and all of the panels left over are in 3rd party hands with various quality issues and available for sale on ebay as replacements for broken SONY phone screens only. SONY made drivers for this display for their phone. So you can reverse engineer entirely new drivers or rip the sony display drivers and then adapt them to work with windows.

That's where we are at now as far as I can tell. This has always been the hurdle with these screens, also why there is no universal display shield yet. There is a big push to make open source universal display drivers but it's not there yet. It's the same thing with the camera modules. Really MIPI DSI is not open or available to the public yet, and everything running around with that interface is sort of restricted to OEMs.

Rather than getting the Open-Q I think you'd have a lot more success trying to find a longer mipi dsi connector cable for the display and then looking at a way to run linux or some app that does what you need straight from the Xperia Z5P. That's almost what you're doing with the open q anyway, you're taking a SoC and driving a display, but you could just straight buy a used or display damaged Z5P and use that as your SoC, and use android apps or root or some version of linux to get what you're trying to do done through the SoC that is engineered for that display rather than trying to make a new SoC just for the display.

Like this would probably be just fine for me http://www.techradar.com/us/news/phone-and-communications/mobile-phones/microsoft-wants-to-convert-android-phones-to-windows-10-1288681

Just running windows software to that display is what I need. I could make the multimedia projector today but I'd be stuck going through the XperiaZ5P and its OS as an intermediate before I could get to the display.

[RyanD]

I'm going to design and make a prototype with an existing 2k panel that runs off hdmi. It was $150.00 and that will let me put a prototype together and see if this design is worth pursuing. I'll post up pictures in a new thread when I'm done. I've been talking with a company who can make me a display shield for the 4k screen but they want confirmation for a bulk purchase in the future. I'll be putting together my prototype SLA printer and a 2k projector based on these relatively small 6" displays. Once I have a complete tuned package for both projector and SLA printer, I'll see if there is any interest in a kickstarter or indiegogo. Until then and without further development I don't think anybody is getting anything out of the xperia z5 screen without some serious cash/engineering chops. If nothing else the TI 4k DMD will arrive in short order and it is specifically designed to address these needs, also the DMD is much more robust when dealing with UV light vs the LCD panel. So we'll see what can be done.

[Oneminde]

It might be true what you say about the production of the display, if so, then it will be very difficult to move forth.

[zyann2]

Would the snapdragon 820 dev board run the display without drivers?, and how would one match up the cable from the dev board to the screen, as it looks different?

[alex1971]

Hi!
Need help! Is very necessary datasheet LS055D1SX04!
To help you to- https://github.com/dtsinc/DTS-Sound-Integration_CAF-Android-kernel/blob/master/arch/arm/boot/dts/qcom/dsi-panel-nt35950-4k-dualmipi0-cmd.dtsi

[smoki99]

Hi there,

this is a very interesting project. But where you get the Sharp LS055D1SX04.

I was on panelook and get information, there are non available. Is this true?

Kind Regards,

Christian Mueller

[daveshah]

I've been researching the Z5 premium LCD a bit, and thought I should share what I've found. I'm currently working on an FMC breakout board for it and hopefully in the next few months I'll have a FPGA driver for it working.

The display isn't exactly the LS055D1SX04, although the driver is the same the pinout and a few other specs are different. Actually the Z5 premium LCD could be one of 6 different parts from 3 different vendors (AUO, JDI and Sharp) based on the device tree files for it. I've seen both AUO and Sharp panels "in the wild" and obtained a datasheet for one AUO part - the H546UAN01.0 - which I've uploaded here due to the attachement limit. I've definitely seen this part number on at least one eBay listing for replacement Z5 premium LCDs. As supply voltages and register configs differ slightly different LCD models/manufacturers are identified by a different resistor to ground connected to the LCD_ID pin.

The display driver (Novatek NT35950, no datasheet is available) is actually very sophisticated. In 4k mode, it supports (and quite possibly requires) compressed video to reduce the data rate to 1/3 of uncompressed 4k. The compression algorithms supported are simple streaming ones; either Qualcomm's entirely proprietary FBC or VESA's Display Stream Compression which is "open" if you pay $350. The display driver can also upscale from 1080p, compression is not needed in this mode.

Also presumably due to being at the very limit of possible pixel density, the screen doesn't have a full 3 subpixels per pixel. Instead each pixel has only two colour subpixels, and there's some magic ("subpixel rendering") on the display driver to drop subpixels with minimal loss in quality. I suppose in effect it's more like a 1440x3840 display than a full 4k one though.

The Z5 Premium uses the display in MIPI DSI Command Mode, which means that pixels are written over DSI into a framebuffer built into the display driver; saving power as it means that data does not need to be written every frame if it hasn't changed. The display driver also supports video mode without a framebuffer, by setting register B4 in page 0 from 0x01 to 0x10 (as in this DTS entry). I believe one of the reasons for using compression, as well as reducing DSI data rate, is that compressed images are stored in this framebuffer so only 1/3 the RAM is needed.

Unfortunately the connector used by the display is a pain to source (DDK BB35-PC60-3A-D8 on the display, so BB35-RC60-3A needs to be used on the board). I eventually managed to order 10 samples from a 1688 seller (the link I used no longer works but I think this is the same seller). A few places on Taobao listed it but none would sell small quantities. As far as I can tell getting a reel of 6000 would be fairly easy if ever going to MP.

[deepfire]

I've been researching the Z5 premium LCD a bit, and thought I should share what I've found. I'm currently working on an FMC breakout board for it and hopefully in the next few months I'll have a FPGA driver for it working.

daveshah, what do you think about using mentioned board like this or this. Is this even possible to use as a solution driver? What do you think is the most realistic approach to the problem?

It seems like you're developing a board yourself, would be interesting to know a little bit more details 

Also, heres some links to add for discussion:
M35 UHD LCD control board
SVX-3840 LCD Controller

Are these any good?

Also, for smoki99, to find where to buy the screen you should search "z5 premium replacement screen"
Some stores here here and here
Btw, the screens considerably dropped in price, i remember them being around $120, now only $65-70.
Maybe thats an indicator they soon get extinct, need to hurry and buy a couple myself.

[daveshah]

The Qualcomm Snapdragon 820 boards should work, you may need to develop a kernel device tree entry based on the Sharp 4k DTSI files and the Z5 Premium kernel's DTSI files. As far as is documented, the 810 used in the Z5 Premium and that the drivers are developed for uses Qualcomm FBC to compress the data; whereas the 820 only supports VESA DSC which the display should also support.

You would probably need to build a custom interface board between the dev board and display; also providing the LCD power rails (IIRC +/- 5.6V; 1.8V and 1.35V) and a backlight driver

My own plan requires driving the display from an FPGA I'm building a board to connect it to FPGA dev board with an FMC connector.

Waiting for boards to arrive at the moment, not willing the release designs yet but will soon, after a previous but similar board put 12V onto 3.3V and destroyed a ~$1200 FPGA board and I don't want that happening to anyone else.

As far as availability goes based on experience with other devices displays will be available for a long time but price may fluctuate. As well there's Sharp's LS055D1SX04 - different pinout but otherwise similar - which a distributor told me was going into mass production in November.

Rumour has it Samsung might release a phone with a 4k AMOLED around March and that will almost certainly reach its way to the spares market in a few months - based on past Samsung OLEDs maybe around the $150-200 mark. It will almost certainly use dual lane DSI and VESA DSC so FPGA code written could be reused and it could be driven from the same Qualcomm dev boards; but pinout, voltages (because it's AMOLED) and setup commands will be different.

[daveshah]

If you want the Sharp panel, which has an easier to obtain connector and I believe this DTSI file for use with a Snapdragon 820; you could try contacting one of these suppliers

http://www.panelook.com/LS055D1SX04_SHARP_5.5_LCM_inventory_27124.html

Also in large quantities it might be easier to obtain as you could probably go straight to Sharp.

Datasheet for the Sharp panel is uploaded here.

[cmhansen]

Here is an IC that is almost the same model of ic a board was using (TC358870XBG) that was linked, but this is eDP and supposed to handle 4K@60hz:
https://toshiba.semicon-storage.com/info/docget.jsp?did=15627&prodName=TC358860XBG

The eDP should work fine with the many options of standard mass-produced V-by-one with eDP display controllers.

TC358860XBG provides a compression engine which compress video data with 2-to-1 ratio. This enables
TC358860XBG to receive 4K @60fps video streams at eDP Rx, compress and send out to a dual DSI link 4K
panel for display. "A de-compress engine is expected in the DSI panel."

Now, does that sharp panel (or other two variants) have decompress built in?  It seems like the only snag was the compression... still it's essentially half the data as a raw stream so it seems like quality will not be as great... 4:2:2 requires 66% the bandwidth as 4:4:4, so it sounds it wouldn't even be as good as that really... in fact maybe only equal to 1440p@60hz.  But like mentioned, SLA printer application would still be possible if you can remove the color filter, and 30hz might be ok as a projector, and eDP is a much cleaner way than a dev board.  Still a display connector other than mipi would be best, as I understand the IGZO displays can handle the fast refresh.

[daveshah]

Now, does that sharp panel (or other two variants) have decompress built in?  It seems like the only snag was the compression... still it's essentially half the data as a raw stream so it seems like quality will not be as great... 4:2:2 requires 66% the bandwidth as 4:4:4, so it sounds it wouldn't even be as good as that really... in fact maybe only equal to 1440p@60hz.  But like mentioned, SLA printer application would still be perfectly fine, and 30hz might be ok as a projector, and eDP is a much cleaner way than a dev board.  Still a display connector other than mipi would be best, as I understand the IGZO displays can handle the fast refresh.

Although the Sharp panel does support decompression of 3:1 VESA DSC and Qualcomm FBC; I don't think it supports the proprietary and undocumented 2:1 compression in the Toshiba IC. The only display which I know supports Toshiba style compression is the LS029B3SX02; a 2.9" 1440x1440 display designed for VR applications. The Toshiba IC can I believe drive two of these at 120Hz with compression.

As far as quality goes; the compression is going to be a lot better than 4:2:2 and is genuinely 'visually lossless' (remember this is a very 'light' compression - only 2:1 or 3:1 - compared to H264 etc which can be >20:1 in many cases) on typical images, video and computer graphics. On the other hand I'm not sure how it would affect other uses  such as in an SLA printer.

I still am not sure whether or not the Sharp display will support uncompressed 4k at 30-40fps - which the Toshiba chip should support - but I'll hopefully get the hardware next week and be able to start playing around. I'll report back here or in a new thread with my findings and VHDL if I'm successful.

[cmhansen]

Pure bandwidth-wise, I still don't see how 50% video rate is less lossy than 66% (4:2:2) rate??  Hmm nvm, 422 is more like dropping data than compressing it looks.... but obviously compression adds some latency, though 2:1 may be very fast.

Also I wonder if those 3 manufactures all use the same Sharp LCD or just license?  How much effort would it take to negotiate a small mod to create a easier to use and better (lower cost too??) LCD with eDP and no decompression?  Also if they were as useful in projectors as we imagine why aren't there low-cost ones mass produced... they don't want to cannibalize their projector sales?  It's less than 2x2 as big as a 3" LCD.

To be honest I'm seeing 4k 65"+ panels very inexpensive now from alibaba, and that's nearing the size of a projector screen albeit not easy to move.  Even, walmart has a complete 49" 4k set for $250 shipped and that's about the regular price for that set.

[cmhansen]

>Chinavasion sells a 3800lumen projector that has a 5.8 LCD panel in it that can be swapped out https://www.chinavasion.com/china/wholesale/LED_Projectors/HD_Projectors/3800-Lumens-HD-LED-Projector-White/

You bring up a good point... there are already very low cost projectors using 'big' lcd's.... I imagine the thought has more than crossed their mind of using a 'practically free' in projector comparison 4k phone displays... and they have good resources I'm sure so why no 4k products yet I wonder?!  Also I wonder if a 4k TV asic supports keystoning... that's practically all that's missing from a volume 4k TV board to make a projector. (just use lens shift, it's better anyways)

[cmhansen]

I still am not sure whether or not the Sharp display will support uncompressed 4k at 30-40fps

Forget mipi - that IGZO TFT should more than support 60hz, better than a normal TFT.  If not it's mipi bus and whatever ic does decompression, would be great to get rid of that and in fact V-by-one may be better (less cruft) than eDP.  DP multi monitor over one cable is such a niche use for a ubiquitous protocol - why not use simple multiplexers / deplexers for this edge case.... besides, lower resolutions can be sent wireless too.

And... why don't TVs (even monitors) just have an external vby1 and connect an external box similar (modified) to those ~$20 android arm SOC boxes?  Then again monitors should be able to connect directly with something like vby1 to a PC, the GPU can do everything done by a TV ic and better enabling lower latency too.  HDCP to blame?

[daveshah]

Pure bandwidth-wise, I still don't see how 50% video rate is less lossy than 66% (4:2:2) rate??  Hmm nvm, 422 is more like dropping data than compressing it looks.... but obviously compression adds some latency, though 2:1 may be very fast.

Effectively the compression algorithm is optimised for typical video/image/computer graphics; resulting in a typically higher quality. It's a really simple intra-frame with a line buffer only that works in chunks of ~32 lines - not whole frames - so the latency is negligible, a lot less than a frame.

I still am not sure whether or not the Sharp display will support uncompressed 4k at 30-40fps

Forget mipi - that IGZO TFT should more than support 60hz, better than a normal TFT.  If not it's mipi bus and whatever ic does decompression, would be great to get rid of that and in fact V-by-one may be better (less cruft) than eDP.  DP multi monitor over one cable is such a niche use for a ubiquitous protocol - why not use simple multiplexers / deplexers for this edge case.... besides, lower resolutions can be sent wireless too.

I believe that IGZO means the transistors can switch faster, but it doesn't affect the response time of the crystals which will be a limiting factor. No idea about getting Sharp to change the driver IC, ones supporting V-by-one/eDP are generally designed for larger panels but might work. A lot of reengineering would be needed, I suspect you'd be talking minimum qtys of 100k-1M.

[daveshah]

Is 10.1" too big for a DIY projector? This panel claims to have eDP; and available stocks.

http://www.panelook.com/TV101QUM-N00_BOE_10.1_LCM_overview_26559.html

[cmhansen]

Is 10.1" too big for a DIY projector? This panel claims to have eDP; and available stocks.

http://www.panelook.com/TV101QUM-N00_BOE_10.1_LCM_overview_26559.html

Put it on an overhead and call it a day   Ultimately it's too big, and a phone screen would have a larger volume sales I'd imagine, one figure just for the xperia (recent, may not be z5 premium) was like 4 million in the first month or so.  Sharp has no contact info but AUO (Taiwan) does, only Taiwan numbers... english option but I still didn't get anywhere... I can't imagine engineering would be complex but it would be a new product.  It would have very high demand, and would be nice to be plugnplay (no disassembly or converters), I'd imagine no backlight/digitizer/glass should be less expensive and slightly more transmissive too.

For larger lower dpi SLA 10" would be better of course, and LCD can't use UV for sla anyway but that may not matter much:
https://3dprint.com/117623/uniz-slash-sla-3d-printer/
800+ DPI would be desired for smaller builds, no speed penalty.

FPGA's are kinda obsolete now anyways right?  Expensive even for diy... any chance to use CPLDs for a 'bus adapter' so to say?  A chance these could be made cheap and handle different bus types/protocols too.

This obviously needs to scale beyond 'hobby', i.e. fabs produce what an individual can't.  I've seen some good reviews on those 5.8" LCD projectors, chinavasion's model looks to be ADK btw from a search on alibaba, where there are MANY.  I doubt any of those have lens shift of any kind (fixed or variable), basic keystone probably and even I bet there's 'software' corner keystone for projector stacking, if not that should be trivial.  Also one might find a lens shift adapter to put in front instead of keystone.

[cmhansen]

Also presumably due to being at the very limit of possible pixel density, the screen doesn't have a full 3 subpixels per pixel. Instead each pixel has only two colour subpixels, and there's some magic ("subpixel rendering") on the display driver to drop subpixels with minimal loss in quality. I suppose in effect it's more like a 1440x3840 display than a full 4k one though.

You bring up a really good point, this may be what they mean by "rainbow RGB".  This is kind of like RGBW 4k UHD's as only having 3/4 as many pixels as a full UHD, or the full having 4/3 times as many, however you look at it.  If any amount of compression could make up for lost pixels, they might as well advertise 720p as 4k, that's 9x fewer pixels but hey HEVC can fit that bandwidth with 4k just perfect no?!. </rant>  "These aren't the droids you are looking for"! 

edit: RGBW sub pixel count is less it looks, think it is pentile and the z5 premium might be rgbg pentile or equivalent too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PenTile_matrix_family

An early controversy regarding the definition or measurement of resolution of color subpixelated flat panel displays in general, and for subpixel rendered displays in particular, led many people[23][24][25] to question the resolution claims of PenTile display products.[26] One school holds that resolution is defined by the number of red, green, and blue subpixels, in groups of three, in an array in each axis.[citation needed] The other school holds that resolution is found by counting the number of line pairs, black & white (or bright and dark) lines and spaces that may be simultaneously rendered on the screen, in each axis.[5]

Also I'm not sure if it's really a ppi issue... for instance this projector:
http://www.projectorcentral.com/Sanyo-PLC-WL2500A.htm
has 3x .6" 1280x800 lcd's, that's 2515.73/3 =~ 838 ppi, that's pretty old too, igzo is supposed to enable 4x dpi than standard I believe.  '3lcd' panels are made a little different anyways, not sure how they get the density without igzo.

[cmhansen]

FYI I reached out to Chimei Innolux sales about manufacturing a desired LCD and it's been forwarded twice since yesterday... so even if they say they aren't able to, I say it's a small success.

[daveshah]

FYI I reached out to Chimei Innolux sales about manufacturing a desired LCD and it's been forwarded twice since yesterday... so even if they say they aren't able to, I say it's a small success.

Very interesting - let me know what happens! Have you also considered contacting AUO, JDI or Sharp?

[cmhansen]

I tried AUO and should try again, I haven't received reply back from the contact form and even though the rep I talked to had better english than my chinese I didn't get anywhere.  I figure Sharp doesn't want to obsolete their projector tech and no doubt they know the ramifications of a ~$20 or $30 LCD part (no contact on their website - they don't want to be bothered basically).  JDI (Sony, Toshiba, and Hitachi) are probably like Sharp (and Sharp supplies sony's z5 panel anyways).  I read samsung and sharp have licensed igzo but Innolux may also, there may be others too.  Basically any forward-looking LCD manufacturer who isn't monopolized by another company should be a good avenue.

[cmhansen]

Here's a good question - would a 7" 3840x2160 uhd 4k LCD be better for projection and SLA printing than 6" or less?  There are quite a few production projectors using 7" too, e.g.:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/893253-REG/Pyle_Pro_prjle55_High_Def_LED_Widescreen_Projector.html

It is a good bit bigger than the 5.8" based projectors, and focal ranges may be more limited too (?).  For SLA there would be a tradeoff between size and resolution... obviously even that 10.1" 4k LCD could be focused to a smaller area for higher ppi / dpi but that will cause distortion (a collimator at the desired size may help but divergence always increases as beam diameter is shrunk).

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/On-Camera-LCD-Monitors/ci/1984/N/4028759510?origSearch=video%20monitors
You can easily see that 7" appears to be the most common size for professional camera monitors / viewfinders so such size would immediately find use in this application as well as the most common small tablet size 7".  Isn't it ironic that a phone is the least useful application for this resolution yet it was the first available to consumers?  The highest immediate volume likely though  (If you can get around UHD 4k having exactly 150% as many subpixels as the Z5 premium screen - assuming Rainbow RGB is basically pentile).

Also compression does seem to make sense at such high resolutions and seems it will be baked into DP... it could be that putting decompression on the LCD matrix bus makes sense.

[cmhansen]

A technical reason why larger LCDs might be better to some extent is that the TFT transistor gate will likely be a smaller proportion of the subpixel, the gate lowers transmittance.
http://c8.alamy.com/comp/BB4CAC/an-active-matrix-thin-film-transistor-tft-liquid-crystal-display-a-BB4CAC.jpg

[cmhansen]

Also a very important but less thought of difference probably between 3lcd and single lcd is lumen efficiency.  A single LCD will need roughly 3x the lumen output at the lamp as a 3 lcd since each color is blocked by 2/3 the area of the LCD.  It might actually be a lot more comparable though with BEF, reflective polarizer, etc.

If you could simply remove the color filter from a panel, to get square pixels from a subpixel rectangle, you have to shrink 3x in the axis the subpixel is longest.  Resolution is limited by the longest pixel length more or less, infx1 yields a gradient, not an image.  Though... if subpixels are not side to side but vertical, you could do a horizontal shrink and get square cells in a (16/3):9 which is really close to a simple rotation, just slightly more square.  2560x1440p in such case gives 2560p x 1440(x3) = 4320x2560p after digital rotation and optical shrinking.  It would work, but it's more cumbersome than the 'right' panels.  Then there's the issue of convergence through a somewhat large dichroic prism RGB combiner x-cube or set of mirrors.

[TelenOA]

Hi, guys.

Seeing as the Xperia Z5 Premium's display has been discussed here as a possible viable 4k 60fps display (being around $55 and easily obtainable), and I've been looking into it for a DIY VR project, I figured I'd post this here:

The primary difficulty I've read regarding using this as a display is an initialization sequence being needed, and a datasheet being needed for that. However the kernal for Xperia is on GitHub, so I searched and found this. msm8994 is the Snapdragon 810 - used in the Z5 Premium. It's also for the Z5 and a ton of other devices, but only the Z5 Premium is 4k.

#include "dsi-panel-jdi-4k-dualmipi-video.dtsi" is the only 4k-related entry in that file, Googled it: found this. The "qcom,mdss-dsi-on-command" variable looks like it could, therefor, be the initialization code needed for the Z5 Premium's specific screen, and if I'm making a ton of assumptions and it turns out not to be, it should still be findable in the Xperia source on GitHub.

I have never dealt with things like initialization sequences, kernals, etc, so I think I am making a bunch of assumptions. For example JDI being noted in the entry, and JDI's never given news of a 5.5" 4k display - Sharp has, but there's no 4k entry for them. Weird. Could just be something never updated in the variable name.

These links could be useful to others, though, so there they are. Hope it helps. 

[cmhansen]

The UP board seems like a good (better?) SBC and it might be compatible with some mipi DSI displays:
https://up-community.org/forum/general-discussion/823-driving-cell-phone-lcd-with-up-board
A universal mipi dsi - dp adapter would be the best hold-over though for this and every other phone display, no intermediate SOC or scaling asic (e.g. TV board) needed really, just connect a PC or SBC of choice directly. 
 
UP 1 SOC gpu is not even half the raw gflops on paper of the adreno 430 in the SD810.  Though one GFXbench test equates it to an nVidia Tegra K1 (or possibly the Adreno 530 in one S7 version, if not the Mali):
https://youtu.be/dPJiShBIPw8?t=9m16s
And at around $100 it's also at least 5x less than an 810 dev board too.
Is the included Altera Max 10 FPGA on the newer UP^2 any good/useful?  It's only 2k LEs.

If not already linked, here's a good place to compare SBC's (many have mipi DSI):
https://www.board-db.org/

[cmhansen]

How programmable (or hackable) are those asics on universal 4k display boards (with HDMI and DP in, for monitors, TVs, signage, etc)? 
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/UHD-4Kx-2k-LCD-Board-with_60573541043.html?spm=a2700.7724838.0.0.tG2it7
I'd guess they are Realtek or Broadcom based.

This one supports freesync, firmware upgrading and 'special effects'... couldn't that VESA compression be a simple 'special effect'??:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/HDMI-DP-to-eDP-or-V_60478017305.html?spm=a2700.7724838.0.0.P5z7Xf

Or possibly just output the PC's HDMI or DP feed already compressed (shoehorn with a custom resolution/filter/refresh?).

[cmhansen]

In fact why not convert to USB 3.1 (10Gbps)

If I read this correctly 'alt mode' switches RX to TX for 20Gbps half-duplex (making it DP 1.2 capable?)
http://www.anandtech.com/show/8558/displayport-alternate-mode-for-usb-typec-announced.

Somewhat OT but why not wire all PCIe lanes to type-c ports with a few that can switch to half-duplex for display purpose, or heavy write cases?  No internal expansion needed, a fully universal and cleaner less expensive mobo for home and to plug into a server rack as-is --- the typ-c connectors are the backplane.  At 40Gbps has same bandwidth as 5 PCIe 3.0 lanes, so only 3 cables is just 1 lane bandwidth shy of an x16 slot.... type-c is supposed to support 80Gbps? in the future.  3 type-c PD supplies all power for the GPU surprisingly, supposedly a common Type-c should carry 3A @ 20V, up to high power 5A cables.  So 3 cables, 180-300W - that covers all the GPU's out there to the very high-end. Brilliant.

Asus is already doing pure pcie over type-c, at ~2GBps (16Gbps, 2 lanes) per cable:
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/asus-rog-xg2-graphics-dock,30941.html
Seems like ATX is all but history, and why are PSU's still stuck at 12V (Why not a single 20V+ rail).

We might see RJ45 / p8c8 replaced with type-c terminated CAT8, or simple p8c8 to type-c jacks (would make replacing that jack easy - in fact it's basically sfp)

[deepfire]

Someone Roberto Luo few days ago posted a project in development at hackaday.io, describing a HDMI controller for dual mipi displays.
as for 4k, it says Sony Z5 4K 3840*2160(Testing)
It is early to judge, maybe it will the first successful project we can use

https://hackaday.io/project/21176-hdmi-to-mipi-dsi-adapter-for-2k-4k-displays

[Vitruvius]

I am looking and waiting for the same thing for a year. I think this is it as noted above from Roberto Luo on Hackaday.

http://www.confuindustries.com/col.jsp?id=110

I just emailed Sales at ConFu to find out more. I am looking to make a small high res field monitor for my camera and this would be great.

[PeterGuy]

Received email back from Robert Luo

Unfortunately after a year of R&D on building a HDMI to MIPI converter for the Sony Z5 4k LCD Display, they couldn't get it working and gave up trying. They sold their R&D already and are focusing on another 4k solution that is HDMI to eDP converter. Didnt mention which panel though.
I have attached his attachment to me regarding their new HDMI to eDP converter

[RGB255_0_0]

That looks much better than the Qualia board from Adafruit 

[cmhansen]

What is the OP thinking of doing for heat dissipation? A typical 4K projector lamp will draw 250-300 watts alone, and if you've got a tiny transmissive display (like the OP's suggested LCD) you're going to have to dissipate a good portion of that from the display. I saw something like 33% loss earlier in the thread - I sure wouldn't be comfortable dumping 100W into a cheap consumer phone display for hours on end.

Good point and needs some consideration.
The LED isn't 100% efficient, maybe 15%, or 100 lm/W [1].  For a 300W LED lamp that is 15% efficient... there is only 45W of visible light as the starting "100% backlight" source.  True there is also IR (heat), most heat can be dissipated at the back of the lamp through the heatsink.  The temp on the heatsint x area will give an idea what IR there is also given emissivity.  For easy estimate, emissivity=1, and a lamp the size of a screen 5.5" has 83.39cm², say this is like a CPU core on a cpu cooler, going up to 70C under load.  black body radiation (total) at that temp seems to be ~ 6.5W ??
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/quantum/radfrac.html

at 70C it's basically all IR-C, and IR-A is only ~5%, IR-A maybe all you might need worry about in fact, as that can be blocked by glass, say something between the LED and LCD, so there is only 45W of visible light now. 

So, 5-8% light efficiency of LCD of the 45W visible light, round to 10% efficiency, there is only ~4.5W of light being projected!!  That sounds like nothing, but if you can convert 1W to 683lm, x 4.5 = 3073.5 lm (convert to ANSI??).  It checks out that the 300W LED @ 100 lm/W = 30,000 lm, ~10% is 3000 lm.

Anyways, that's still 45W - 4.5W projected = 40.5W the screen absorbs.  40.5W is only ~ .5W/cm sq for the LCD glass to dissipate, x 2 sides is only .25W/cm sq.  A good amount could sink around the edges to case of a touching piece of glass too.  The LCD datasheet might show a 60C high temp operational test for 240hrs but it may not be intended continuous, not sure.  Add airflow to the LCD and it should be fine.   

Maybe a good idea [2]: put a reflective polarizer in front of the lamp the same polarization as the back LCD polarizer --- THEN the back LCD polarizer absorbs basically no light and it [should be] basically like having the reflective polarizer on the LCD.  A normal polarizer has 50%-60% loss. 
http://informationdisplay.org/portals/informationdisplay/issues/2010/09/art6/GIFS/Fig_1b.jpg

With the first 45% transmittance, the total is 7.6%, without the barrier it is ~17%, over double the output.  If 'polarization recycling' was itself 50% efficient, ~12% is reached, which still is over a 50% gain.  However the best I have read is a 30% gain which is still substantial and means ~ 25% reduction in power... that still takes 10W or so off the LCD, down to 30W, not to mention the 300W LED down to 225W, quite an improvement really.

I'm considering 6000K LED car headlights with fans / heatsinks attached for a lamp.  (Not sure if any of those heatsinks look capable of even 100W though)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_efficacy

[2] http://www.apioptics.com/reflective-polarizer-films.html

Interesting:
http://electroiq.com/blog/2008/01/shedding-light-on-alternative-to-lcd-manufacturing/
(a TFT 'mems' display with no LCD, filter, or polarizer -- 'vaporware'?)

[tahaea1]

Received email back from Robert Luo

Unfortunately after a year of R&D on building a HDMI to MIPI converter for the Sony Z5 4k LCD Display, they couldn't get it working and gave up trying. They sold their R&D already and are focusing on another 4k solution that is HDMI to eDP converter. Didnt mention which panel though.
I have attached his attachment to me regarding their new HDMI to eDP converter

I found this on their diytrade page:
http://confuindustries.diytrade.com/sdm/2432682/4/pd-7469939/20494572-0/HDMI_to_MIPI_Converter_Board_for_Sony_Z5_5_5_inch.html

[PeterGuy]

Yes i know, Which is what made me email in the first place. But unfortunately if you email him you get the above response from before. He has also updated another page of his saying the Z5 controller board has stopped.

[PeterGuy]

Just seen a new updated listing on alibaba offering HDMI to MIPI-DSI 2ch 4 Lane controller board which runs the Sony Z5 Premium 4k LCD.

You can purchase here:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/3840-2160-4K-HDMI-to-DSI_60706236703.html

[stepus]

Hi, i am very intrested in this project, I want to build DIY projector with this LCD. Are you going to finish the driver ? Or what are the lastest news ? I am going to buy z5 with some damage on ebay and try to use it as a media center, but there are problems like sound from phone is stereo not 5.1 etc. So i will be happy if the driver will be.
Thanks

[flipside786]

Reviving an old thread here.  I am in the process of building a 4k DIY projector but still limited to the 30hz frequency.  I am using a h546uan01.0 display but the driver board only can do 30hz.

Has someone actually got a 5.5 inch 4k display @ 60hz?  If so can you please let me know what was used as the driver board for the display.

Thanks