Author Topic: 3 wire voltmeter module for low voltage  (Read 11807 times)

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Offline SimonTopic starter

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3 wire voltmeter module for low voltage
« on: June 28, 2017, 12:01:35 pm »
I need to measure 0-1V are there any sensibly priced volt meter modules out there that I can use or am I asking for the impossible.
 

Offline TheUnnamedNewbie

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Re: 3 wire voltmeter module for low voltage
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2017, 01:30:23 pm »
Give us some specs. Any multimeter can measure 0-1V. Since you are asking, I'm going to guess you either A) require higher accuracy than an average multimeter can provide. If this is the case, go buy yourself a better multimeter B) You need a module to be integrated in a system

Either way, give us more information!
What is your budget, required accuracy, etc.

What is a three-wire voltage measurement anyways? I've never heard of this.
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Offline SimonTopic starter

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Re: 3 wire voltmeter module for low voltage
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2017, 01:32:13 pm »
I'm looking for a little panel meter. Most measure their own supply voltage, I need to measure 0-1V so it needs independent power.

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Offline SimonTopic starter

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Re: 3 wire voltmeter module for low voltage
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2017, 01:49:36 pm »
Think digital will be preferred.

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Offline Kleinstein

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Re: 3 wire voltmeter module for low voltage
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2017, 03:16:47 pm »
There are a lot of modules with 3.5 digits for something like a 200 mV or 2 V range. The older ones based on ICL7106 or similar. There are relative cheap Chinese ones with 5 digits. So it really depends on the source you want. Plenty of modules to chose from. Just beware that some need a supply that is not connected to the voltage to measure - so more like 4 wires.
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: 3 wire voltmeter module for low voltage
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2017, 03:23:24 pm »
I have found one brand to be the best and sticking out like no other.
And I have used hundreds of these over the years

ECKMANN+EAGLE
www.bue.de

The most used one is 0 to 19.99V
But they also have a 0 to 1.999V
or 199.9 mV
or even Amp meter
With and without light

Here are a few pictures of the one I usually have in stock.
Prices are around 20 Euro each

« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 03:27:01 pm by HighVoltage »
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Offline jeroen79

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Re: 3 wire voltmeter module for low voltage
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2017, 04:04:54 pm »
What is a three-wire voltage measurement anyways? I've never heard of this.
You can get panelmeters with different wiring configurations.
2 wire: Combined supply and measurement, will have a minimum input voltage.
3 wire: Shared ground, separate high for supply and measurement.
4 wire: Completely separate supply and measurement.
 

Offline SimonTopic starter

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Re: 3 wire voltmeter module for low voltage
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2017, 04:36:09 pm »
I have found one brand to be the best and sticking out like no other.
And I have used hundreds of these over the years

ECKMANN+EAGLE
www.bue.de

The most used one is 0 to 19.99V
But they also have a 0 to 1.999V
or 199.9 mV
or even Amp meter
With and without light

Here are a few pictures of the one I usually have in stock.
Prices are around 20 Euro each



Unfortunately none of the main distributors have them, but you give me hope, I will have a proper look round.
 

Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: 3 wire voltmeter module for low voltage
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2017, 04:46:19 pm »
The most common and cheapest units are based in the old ICL7106 chip.

Just be aware that, without some additional circuit, the ICL7106-based devices cannot measure a voltage which is referenced to its own supply common.
 

Offline SimonTopic starter

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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: 3 wire voltmeter module for low voltage
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2017, 05:10:29 pm »

Unfortunately none of the main distributors have them, but you give me hope, I will have a proper look round.

You can order them directly from the manufacturer.
Or if you just need one, let me know and I can send you one.
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Offline SimonTopic starter

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Offline DBecker

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Re: 3 wire voltmeter module for low voltage
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2017, 05:29:37 pm »
The most common and cheapest units are based in the old ICL7106 chip.

Just be aware that, without some additional circuit, the ICL7106-based devices cannot measure a voltage which is referenced to its own supply common.

The ICL7106 is obsolescent.  Not for performance, but cost, convenience, cost, price and cost.

The most common and cheapest panel meters are based on 8 bit microcontrollers.  They use their internal 10 or 12 bit ADC with lots of averaging to display 3 or 4 digits of resolution at a 1-5 Hz refresh rate.  More accurate ones have an internal bandgap reference that they correct against, but plenty of them just use the supply 7805 as a voltage reference (which admittedly does provide generous dithering noise for input averaging).

These are readily available in 2 and 3 wire models.  If you do find a cheap 4 wire meter it's probably using pseudo-differential inputs.  That's good because it lets you eliminate the current draw of the LED display from the reading and doesn't require an isolated supply.  It's bad if the input range limit hits you.

You can still get the typical old-style four wire meters that require an isolated supply, but what you think you are gaining in accuracy might be defeated by the noise out of a typical DC-DC converter.  It's not they have a lot of noise, it's that the remaining noise can be really difficult to cheaply eliminate.  And with the variable frequency and pulse width, it's difficult to be certain that you won't hit a bad regime. 
 

Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: 3 wire voltmeter module for low voltage
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2017, 03:32:57 pm »
The most common and cheapest units are based in the old ICL7106 chip.

Just be aware that, without some additional circuit, the ICL7106-based devices cannot measure a voltage which is referenced to its own supply common.

The ICL7106 is obsolescent.  Not for performance, but cost, convenience, cost, price and cost.


Indeed it is. It is a 1980s era chip. But there are plenty of panel meters based on them. So, I only wanted to make the OP aware of the limitations.
 

Offline SimonTopic starter

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Re: 3 wire voltmeter module for low voltage
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2017, 05:11:07 pm »
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: 3 wire voltmeter module for low voltage
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2017, 09:18:13 pm »
Not backlit or branded but cheaper. I haven't personally ordered from JPR Electronics before but the school I went to did and they seemed reasonable.
https://www.jprelec.co.uk/store.asp/c=1076/LCD-Multirange-Panel-Meter
 

Offline SimonTopic starter

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Re: 3 wire voltmeter module for low voltage
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2017, 07:03:49 am »
Well I'm quite happy to spent a tenner a pop but 40 quid is taking the piss when I can buy an Amprobe multi-meter for £30
 

Offline SimonTopic starter

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Re: 3 wire voltmeter module for low voltage
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2017, 05:20:51 pm »
So, panel meters arrived..... yes you guessed it, hidden away in the documentation is a little picture that seems to indicate that the supply voltage cannot be in common with the measured voltage. WANKERS!

So, what does this actually mean ? How much resistance between the 2 grounds does not in common constitute ? I am measuring 0-100mV off the back of a 0-5V pot, and with the input impedence of the panel meters being very high I can easily use 100K-1M resistors in my potential divider.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: 3 wire voltmeter module for low voltage
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2017, 06:31:22 pm »
So, panel meters arrived..... yes you guessed it, hidden away in the documentation is a little picture that seems to indicate that the supply voltage cannot be in common with the measured voltage. WANKERS!

So, what does this actually mean ? How much resistance between the 2 grounds does not in common constitute ? I am measuring 0-100mV off the back of a 0-5V pot, and with the input impedence of the panel meters being very high I can easily use 100K-1M resistors in my potential divider.
It could mean that the input of the meter consists of a differential amplifier, internally biased somewhere around half the power supply voltage and doesn't include 0V in its common mode range. There could be an easy work around using an op-amp to shift the voltage to the meter's internal bias point.

Try shorting both inputs together, powering the meter and measuring the voltage on the inputs, with respect to 0V. Hopefully the 10M impedance of your meter won't pull the panel meter's inputs outside their common mode range and it will continue to read 0V.

A more foolproof solution is to just power the meter off an isolated DC-DC converter but you may need extra RFI filtering.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2017, 06:33:51 pm by Hero999 »
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: 3 wire voltmeter module for low voltage
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2017, 06:34:31 pm »
So, panel meters arrived..... yes you guessed it, hidden away in the documentation is a little picture that seems to indicate that the supply voltage cannot be in common with the measured voltage. WANKERS!


That is one reason why I suggested to you the German made one.
I went through a lot of different digital panel meters that did not work correctly, before I found that one from above.
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Offline SimonTopic starter

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Re: 3 wire voltmeter module for low voltage
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2017, 06:36:33 pm »
Well I still have to get 24V down to 9V so I could use an isolated switcher brick to power them.
 

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Re: 3 wire voltmeter module for low voltage
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2017, 06:38:39 pm »
So if I can't connect grounds together what stops me connecting the +in to power - ? I don't care if the measurement is negative.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: 3 wire voltmeter module for low voltage
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2017, 06:41:48 pm »
So, panel meters arrived..... yes you guessed it, hidden away in the documentation is a little picture that seems to indicate that the supply voltage cannot be in common with the measured voltage. WANKERS!


That is one reason why I suggested to you the German made one.
I went through a lot of different digital panel meters that did not work correctly, before I found that one from above.
I thought Voltcraft are German?

Anyway, it says on the data sheet. This isn't surprising. The meter supports measuring negative voltages and would require a negative power supply if it worked with the inputs below the negative rail.
Quote
The measuring input must be galvanically separated from the power supply and must not be connected.
https://www.rapidonline.com/pdf/126568_an_ml_01.pdf

Well I still have to get 24V down to 9V so I could use an isolated switcher brick to power them.
Seems like a good idea to me.

So if I can't connect grounds together what stops me connecting the +in to power - ? I don't care if the measurement is negative.
What do you mean?

The common mode range of the input terminals, when in 0 to 200mV mode (2V will have a potential divider), is likely to be from around 1 or 2V above the negative rail to 1 or 2V below the positive rail or an internal voltage regulator, if it has one.
 

Offline SimonTopic starter

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Re: 3 wire voltmeter module for low voltage
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2017, 06:44:40 pm »
I mean if I use the positive input as the negative one and ground it. It's probably safer to use an isolated brick, I've got 30 quid to spend on it ;)
 


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