Author Topic: 400 V Square wave oscillator  (Read 10566 times)

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Offline sdoubleTopic starter

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Re: 400 V Square wave oscillator
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2017, 05:53:43 pm »
Vacuum could be a problem at 400 V.  This will depend on how hard the vacuum is.  This is driven by Paschen curve.  It's a function of the gap x pressure.  The minimum is around 1 to 5 torr-cm. The minimum is around 300 volts.  If you can get down to under 0.1 torr-cm then it looks like you would be ok.  I'm not sure what low pressure would do to electronic packaging.   

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paschen%27s_law
This is handled with no issue.
 

Offline ejeffrey

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Re: 400 V Square wave oscillator
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2017, 06:00:25 pm »

Vacuum could be a problem at 400 V.  This will depend on how hard the vacuum is.  This is driven by Paschen curve.  It's a function of the gap x pressure.  The minimum is around 1 to 5 torr-cm. The minimum is around 300 volts.  If you can get down to under 0.1 torr-cm then it looks like you would be ok.  I'm not sure what low pressure would do to electronic packaging.   

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paschen%27s_law

People who work on particle accelerators generally don't consider 0.1 torr a vacuum :)
 

Offline sdoubleTopic starter

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Re: 400 V Square wave oscillator
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2017, 06:27:36 pm »


People who work on particle accelerators generally don't consider 0.1 torr a vacuum :)
that's correct  :-+.. by several orders of magnitude. :scared:
 

Offline ahbushnell

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Re: 400 V Square wave oscillator
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2017, 08:19:13 pm »

Vacuum could be a problem at 400 V.  This will depend on how hard the vacuum is.  This is driven by Paschen curve.  It's a function of the gap x pressure.  The minimum is around 1 to 5 torr-cm. The minimum is around 300 volts.  If you can get down to under 0.1 torr-cm then it looks like you would be ok.  I'm not sure what low pressure would do to electronic packaging.   

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paschen%27s_law

People who work on particle accelerators generally don't consider 0.1 torr a vacuum :)
A nit. It's torr-cm.  If it is a hard vacuum, is out gasing going to be a problem from plastic in the circuit?

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Offline jbb

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Re: 400 V Square wave oscillator
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2017, 08:45:28 pm »
Sorry , it seems that I was not very clear. The 2.5 MHz is the repetition rate. It's actually a chopper for an ion accelerator.

The presence of radiation near the beam line suggests you probably don't want to use the TI fully-integrated GaN FET.  It's a whole IC, with many radiation detectors transistors in it.  Also, important question: what happens if a switching event fails?  Would a ... frisky ... particle beam go somewhere it shouldn't?

Reliability is muuuch more important than price. Shuting down the accelerator cost ten grants.... opening the tanks ten more....
Yeah, I did wonder about that when seeing pictures of accelerators. So... much... stuff.

Absent the radiation, I would suggest putting the electronics as close to the output as possible so you don't get transmission line effects.  However, with radiation and high service costs, it might be time to look at a remote electronics solution.  I'm frankly guessing here, but might 500mm of transmission line be enough to get your electronics out of the beam line and behind a few mm of shielding?  I'm thinking a carefully designed 'RF' feedthrough would be fairly reliable over the major maintenance period of the accelerator...

What's the plate capacitance expected to be?

Considering a transmission line in frequency domain:
  • Propagation velocity v = 2e8 m/s
  • Frequency of interest f = 15 * 2.5e6 Hz = 37.5e6  (going up to 15th harmonic gives a pretty good square wave)
  • Expected wavelength = 5.33m
  • A transmission line exhibits fairly lumped behaviour for up to 1/10th of a wave length, i.e. 0.533m
  • Looks OK

Considering a transmission line in time domain:
  • Propagation velocity v = 2e8 m/s
  • Length = 0.5m
  • Hence electrical length = 2.5 ns
  • Tricky...
  • Traditionally, an electrical engineer would say that we could get lumped-parameter behaviour with 10 periods i.e. 25ns rise time, but it would probably work with 20s rise time.
  • Extra trick: make the transmission line a bit resistive to damp reflections (subject to thermal considerations!)
 

Online BrianHG

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Re: 400 V Square wave oscillator
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2017, 08:51:13 pm »
This one is a little pricey, but it has the low and high side driver built in with protection & it slightly exceeded your requirements:
http://www.ti.com/product/LMG3410?keyMatch=lmg3410&tisearch=Search-EN-Everything

If price is an issue, don't bother as it is a fancy slick component.

Reliability is muuuch more important than price. Shuting down the accelerator cost ten grants.... opening the tanks ten more....
thanks for the datasheet. THis is a part that I did not know.

Check out their Half bridge evaluation module and driver board on the web page at the top left.  TI did your design work for you.  In fact, you can just purchase TI power modules and drive with you own logic driver.

The eval module's .pdf has a scope shot of a 100khz 480v switched signal with rise and fall well under 20ns...
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 08:58:49 pm by BrianHG »
 

Offline sdoubleTopic starter

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Re: 400 V Square wave oscillator
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2017, 08:58:48 pm »

Check out their Half bridge example module and driver board on the web page at the top left.  TI did your design work for you.  In fact, you can just purchase TI power modules and drive with you own logic driver.
I did look at their design of half bridge circuit and that sounds really interesting.
However, I do think that I'll have to redesign the PCB since the connectors mounted on  the evalution boards clearly does not fit my needs.
Now, my main concern is the capability of the circuit to sustain an operation at 2.5MHz. The datasheet mentions 1 MHz...
 

Offline sdoubleTopic starter

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Re: 400 V Square wave oscillator
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2017, 09:09:32 pm »
c
The presence of radiation near the beam line suggests you probably don't want to use the TI fully-integrated GaN FET.  It's a whole IC, with many radiation detectors transistors in it.  Also, important question: what happens if a switching event fails?  Would a ... frisky ... particle beam go somewhere it shouldn't?
No problem, we have rad resistant operators. :-DD
more seriously, no big deal.... if it does not happen too often. If so, thos missed events will lead to some activation of the area, which is not something you want.


Yeah, I did wonder about that when seeing pictures of accelerators. So... much... stuff.

Absent the radiation, I would suggest putting the electronics as close to the output as possible so you don't get transmission line effects.  However, with radiation and high service costs, it might be time to look at a remote electronics solution.  I'm frankly guessing here, but might 500mm of transmission line be enough to get your electronics out of the beam line and behind a few mm of shielding?  I'm thinking a carefully designed 'RF' feedthrough would be fairly reliable over the major maintenance period of the accelerator...

What's the plate capacitance expected to be?
35 pF. The latter includes 20 pF coming from 25 cm of 50 ohms coax cable.

 

Online BrianHG

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Re: 400 V Square wave oscillator
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2017, 09:12:18 pm »
The total propagation turn off delay + fall time of 50ns vs turn on delay + rise time of 36ns, switching the device at 2.5MHz will be a tricky pulse width drive source a little too close for comfort in my book, but not impossible.

You would be better off driving the gates yourself of discrete GaN devices shrinking those delays, giving you wider clearance, but, on off / rise fall times will still be un-matched and you will still need to generate a custom-shaped gate drive if you want to optimize minimum heat, ring, striving for that optimum long-term fault free stable operation.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 09:14:28 pm by BrianHG »
 
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Offline ahbushnell

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Re: 400 V Square wave oscillator
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2017, 09:23:20 pm »
This is similar to a pockel cell that is used for Q switching lasers.  You might want to look that up. 
 

Offline f5r5e5d

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Re: 400 V Square wave oscillator
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2017, 09:27:07 pm »
Quote
35 pF. The latter includes 20 pF coming from 25 cm of 50 ohms coax cable.
shouldn't that be at least 75 Ohm coax? less pF/m for next to no cost diff

RG-62, 63 even higher Z, lower C but different connectors as you go up in Z
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 09:41:39 pm by f5r5e5d »
 

Online BrianHG

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Re: 400 V Square wave oscillator
« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2017, 09:38:48 pm »
@sdouble, how do you intend to synthesize your 2.5Mhz gate signals?
 

Offline sdoubleTopic starter

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Re: 400 V Square wave oscillator
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2017, 09:44:02 pm »
Quote
35 pF. The latter includes 20 pF coming from 25 cm of 50 ohms coax cable.
shouldn't that be at least 75 Ohm coax? less pF/m for next to no cost diff

RG-62, 63 even higher Z
does not really make sense to try to save 5pF there
The power handling of 50 ohm coax is much higher.
 

Offline sdoubleTopic starter

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Re: 400 V Square wave oscillator
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2017, 09:47:31 pm »
@sdouble, how do you intend to synthesize your 2.5Mhz gate signals?
The accelerator ions source provides me with the 2.5MHz low power signal.
 

Offline ganzuul

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Re: 400 V Square wave oscillator
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2017, 10:08:06 pm »
Sorry , it seems that I was not very clear. The 2.5 MHz is the repetition rate. It's actually a chopper for an ion accelerator.
Does it need to be on-target both half-cycles? Could it work with a half-bridge rectifier?

To wit, semiconductors fail in radiation because rad creates activation products which act as dopants. Some U.S. spacecraft monger found out that they are better off using big components instead of many small ones. Presumably this means that more voltage margin in the component is more better, and the capacitance of the component is also lower. High current on the other hand ought to mean a wider junction and so more space in which failure can occur, so the transformer route albeit cool might not be the correct one. Fewer junctions also means fewer points of failure, and a diode is the minimum.

SiC is being evaluated for its good rad-hardness. It could make for some interesting nuclear betavoltaics one day.

Reliability is muuuch more important than price. Shuting down the accelerator cost ten grants.... opening the tanks ten more....
Is there room for two in there?

Yeah, I did wonder about that when seeing pictures of accelerators. So... much... stuff.
They should add an air lock while they're at it.
 

Offline sdoubleTopic starter

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Re: 400 V Square wave oscillator
« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2017, 10:12:10 pm »
Sorry , it seems that I was not very clear. The 2.5 MHz is the repetition rate. It's actually a chopper for an ion accelerator.
Does it need to be on-target both half-cycles? Could it work with a half-bridge rectifier?

To wit, semiconductors fail in radiation because rad creates activation products which act as dopants. Some U.S. spacecraft monger found out that they are better off using big components instead of many small ones. Presumably this means that more voltage margin in the component is more better, and the capacitance of the component is also lower. High current on the other hand ought to mean a wider junction and so more space in which failure can occur, so the transformer route albeit cool might not be the correct one. Fewer junctions also means fewer points of failure, and a diode is the minimum.

SiC is being evaluated for its good rad-hardness. It could make for some interesting nuclear betavoltaics one day.

Reliability is muuuch more important than price. Shuting down the accelerator cost ten grants.... opening the tanks ten more....
Is there room for two in there?

Yeah, I did wonder about that when seeing pictures of accelerators. So... much... stuff.
They should add an air lock while they're at it.
yes, there is room for 2 in there !
 

Online BrianHG

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Re: 400 V Square wave oscillator
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2017, 10:25:27 pm »
@sdouble, how do you intend to synthesize your 2.5Mhz gate signals?
The accelerator ions source provides me with the 2.5MHz low power signal.
Yes, ok, I assume this signal is sinusoidal, Am I correct?
How will you be shaping it to optimize your gate drive, regardless of which type of transistors you use, to a nice square pulse, with corrective t-on and t-off to achieve a 2.5MHz square wave output where the high and low transistors don't burn each other out?
 

Offline f5r5e5d

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Re: 400 V Square wave oscillator
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2017, 10:37:19 pm »
do you have a waveform envelope/template - the absolute widest range/minimal requrements on rise/fall/overshoot, ringing, 'flatness'?


'cable power handling' only applies in matched Z terminated source/load

you have to eval the I, V ( <1 Apk, >400 Vpk) for your higly reflective termination situation, I'm pretty sure the higher characteristic Z is a win

15 pf plate load Z ~ 4j kOhm @ 2.5 MHz, so even the 20th harmonic Z is still higher than the 128 Ohm coax

not that you need transmission line modeling for 25 cm, 2.5 MHz square waves where
Quote
The neat thing is that I can cope with moderate ringing.


Quote
35 pF. The latter includes 20 pF coming from 25 cm of 50 ohms coax cable.
shouldn't that be at least 75 Ohm coax? less pF/m for next to no cost diff

RG-62, 63 even higher Z
does not really make sense to try to save 5pF there
The power handling of 50 ohm coax is much higher.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 11:18:29 pm by f5r5e5d »
 

Offline sdoubleTopic starter

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Re: 400 V Square wave oscillator
« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2017, 11:13:13 pm »

Yes, ok, I assume this signal is sinusoidal, Am I correct?
How will you be shaping it to optimize your gate drive, regardless of which type of transistors you use, to a nice square pulse, with corrective t-on and t-off to achieve a 2.5MHz square wave output where the high and low transistors don't burn each other out?
nope, you're not correct.  8) I get a so-called NIM signal from the accelerator.
 

Offline sdoubleTopic starter

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Re: 400 V Square wave oscillator
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2017, 05:58:37 am »
do you have a waveform envelope/template - the absolute widest range/minimal requrements on rise/fall/overshoot, ringing, 'flatness'?

Frequency is fixed. There is no margin there. Moreover, it must be extremely stable. But i don't see a problem there.
Rise and fall time should be from 18 to 22 ns 10-90%.
I'm much more flexible on the other parameter : overshoot , ringing or flatness. I have a 20% margin there
 

Online Marco

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Re: 400 V Square wave oscillator
« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2017, 12:05:41 pm »
Ixys has 65MHz single package 500V push pull MOSFETs which switch under 10ns including delay, that might be fast enought to just put 2 100 Ohm resistors from the MOSFETs to the load and driving them with GDTs with a shared wire for the primary. Without having to worry too much about shoot through.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: 400 V Square wave oscillator
« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2017, 07:01:17 pm »
How far off from OP's requirements is the deflection circuitry for analog CRT oscilloscopes?
Looking at an old TEK434 from 1980, 25MHZ vertical deflection is common-base amplifier for ~110VDC, 20nsec/div horizontal deflection ~225V cascode.

 

Offline jbb

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Re: 400 V Square wave oscillator
« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2017, 08:26:44 pm »
35 pF. The latter includes 20 pF coming from 25 cm of 50 ohms coax cable.

OK, so 35pF * 20 V/ns = 35 e-12 * 20 e9 = 700 e-3 = 0.7A, which is very reasonable.

So how much coax would you need to get the electronics to the outside of the vacuum & SF6 systems?

Frequency is fixed. There is no margin there. Moreover, it must be extremely stable. But i don't see a problem there.
Rise and fall time should be from 18 to 22 ns 10-90%.
I'm much more flexible on the other parameter : overshoot , ringing or flatness. I have a 20% margin there

Aaaah - stable - will the accelerator operations crew be annoyed if it drifts all over the place (with temperature, ageing etc.)?

In that case I would recommend building a few candidates and experimentally testing them with mock-up transmission line and plates.  Your true goal may be stable response rather than speed, in which case I suggest you design for controlled dV/dt.  (Normally dV/dt will be implicitly controlled by gate drive and device parasitics and drifts around a bit).  Then again, if you don't have particle bunches going through the beam line at the time it won't really matter much, will it?

If some ringing / non-flat behaviour is allowed, a transformer-fed design might be possible.  You might be able to use a 1:8 transformer near the deflection plates to adjust the plate impedance down to around j50 Ohms and then use a longer, terminated transmission line with series termination at source.  Then the drive electronics could be driven from a 50V DC bus (but output 8A peak).  But you would get at least some ringing.

do you have a waveform envelope/template - the absolute widest range/minimal requrements on rise/fall/overshoot, ringing, 'flatness'?

You need one of these.  It should be a proper drawing with labeled axes and references to documents/design studies etc.  You could ask the technical person responsible to try to come up with a 'we want' and 'we need' envelope.  You should ask questions like 'when do the bunches go through the deflector exactly? Are there periods where you don't care about the voltage?' because the accelerator designers may be trying to make your requirements 'simpler' by not telling you everything.

If you can't get one, flag this to the project manager immediately but politely, because it would be evidence of communication problems.

As you can see from all the questions here, there are a lot of possibilities.  Ultimately you're going to be spending a significant amount of time evaluating options and doing simulations.
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: 400 V Square wave oscillator
« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2017, 09:48:11 pm »
In that case I would recommend building a few candidates and experimentally testing them with mock-up transmission line and plates.  Your true goal may be stable response rather than speed, in which case I suggest you design for controlled dV/dt.  (Normally dV/dt will be implicitly controlled by gate drive and device parasitics and drifts around a bit).  Then again, if you don't have particle bunches going through the beam line at the time it won't really matter much, will it?

I would recommend making the driver stable and somewhat faster than needed, then tuning the output network to get the desired response.

The most important part will be reducing the dependency between rise time and semiconductor properties.  Gate drive is a bad way to get this -- then again, if you add external Miller compensation capacitance (that is linear), you can swamp the transistor's capacitance, giving a more stable relation between gate drive current and output dV/dt.

And if efficiency is not required, it's not like there's anything wrong with brute-forcing this thing with a matched 50 ohm transmission line.  Sure, it'll burn about a kilowatt, but it'll work, damn it!

A lot of responses are hinting at linear (class A or AB) amplifiers, as well, which may be more control than is needed here, and will definitely get hot -- but will absolutely do the job.  (You also use a smaller fraction of the full operating range of the transistors, so the nonlinear capacitance is less significant.)

Quote
If some ringing / non-flat behaviour is allowed, a transformer-fed design might be possible.  You might be able to use a 1:8 transformer near the deflection plates to adjust the plate impedance down to around j50 Ohms and then use a longer, terminated transmission line with series termination at source.  Then the drive electronics could be driven from a 50V DC bus (but output 8A peak).  But you would get at least some ringing.

Not so.  At this bandwidth, a very clean transformer can be designed and built, and the circuit matched to eliminate ringing (\$\xi \ge 1\$).  Or peaked (2nd or 3rd order, or even higher) to get a better step response (i.e., a Bessel response, most likely).

Example design:
Assume 50 ohm system.
Assume 2MHz +/- (low) dB, so that -3dB falls at 0.2MHz, say.
That sets Lp = (50 ohm) / (2*pi*(0.2MHz)) = 39.8uH minimum.

A half dozen turns on a large #43 ferrite bead will do the job there, so that's easy.

If t_r ~ 10ns, then Fmax ~ 100MHz (actually a bit under 50MHz).  Let's say 200MHz or more to keep the response independent of the transformer (i.e., not relying on the transformer too much as a reactive component*).

*Which can be done, when using suitable designs (transmission line transformers).  Or, in effect: the maximum bandwidth is simply made very, very high, so that the properties at modest frequencies are well controlled (i.e., it behaves as a transmission line).

200MHz at 0.67c velocity is a 1m winding length.  "A half dozen turns" then needs to be under 160mm per turn, which is fine.  (We don't even have to employ TLT design to implement this transformer, at least for the primary winding!)

Taking the load as a lumped capacitance (it's not, it has 250mm of coax and 15pF of plate; but for the above reason, we probably don't need to worry about the TL being too reactive), to achieve 200MHz frequency response it needs to be driven by a maximum resistance of 22.7 ohms.  Or for the minimum response (tuning everything as a filter, for t_r ~ 10ns), 90.9 ohms.

Well, that's not very much ratio against 50 ohms, so that's kind of a downer.

Regardless, even a 1:1 transformer has leakage inductance*, so even if this ratio isn't as large as 1:8, the analysis can continue.

*Which is actually transmission line length.  The asymptotic low frequency equivalent of a TL is stray inductance, or in a transformer, leakage inductance.  But when working with RF, one must always keep in mind the assumptions they are using: in this case, the lumped LF model uses LL and Cp that arise from the TL characteristics of the winding(s).  A conventionally wound transformer has poorly controlled TL characteristics, usually giving exaggerated LF parameters; but with only a little effort, we can control those characteristics, cleaning up the LF model (making it a better approximation to the real device) and making a simple TL model suitable above there.

To get a matched 90 ohm impedance, we need LL = 290nH (secondary referred).  Then the equivalent circuit is:
(source) --- 50 ohms --- (transformer) --- (capacitor)

The source is 50 ohms matched.  After the transformer, it's 90 ohms (secondary referred).  The transformer has 290nH LL (which manifests as series inductance).  The capacitor has 35pF (plus some TL, but we should be okay to ignore that here).  This is a series RLC circuit, with Zo = sqrt(L/C) = 91 ohms, R = 90 ohms, and so Fo = 50MHz and Q = 1.0.

The step response will be critically damped, i.e., no overshoot.  (Actually, it can be slightly underdamped, and still have no overshoot.)

If we add some CLC around the transformer, we can use the transformer as a series inductor, and the load as the final capacitor, of a ladder type filter network, with a suitable filter type (such as Bessel, Gaussian, or equiripple group delay).  The filter will also be a source-terminated type, because the load resistance is ~infinite.  (It's not well known that filters can be singly terminated, but yes, it works, and there are tables for them! :) )

The transformer spec, 290nH, suggests a winding length around 0.6m, nicely in the ballpark of reasonable transformers.  You'd want to use enameled magnet wire, winding one layer for the primary, then an extension winding on top of it (as an autoformer) for the 90 ohm secondary.  The stray inductance of two adjacent cylindrical layers isn't too bad, and will probably come out close.  (Ideally, you'd design it with less than necessary, then add inductance to bring it up.)

Quote
You need one of these.  It should be a proper drawing with labeled axes and references to documents/design studies etc.  You could ask the technical person responsible to try to come up with a 'we want' and 'we need' envelope.  You should ask questions like 'when do the bunches go through the deflector exactly? Are there periods where you don't care about the voltage?' because the accelerator designers may be trying to make your requirements 'simpler' by not telling you everything.

If you can't get one, flag this to the project manager immediately but politely, because it would be evidence of communication problems.

As you can see from all the questions here, there are a lot of possibilities.  Ultimately you're going to be spending a significant amount of time evaluating options and doing simulations.

I'm also very concerned that the OP is posting on the internet like a valid answer is expected here.  :-DD

I mean, really.  If you're not academic, then... you must be a professional with enough qualifications to figure this out yourself? ???  If you are academic, then it sounds like you're in a study position (grad or undergrad, perhaps?), and should have this kind of support from the curriculum and faculty.  And if you don't -- that you've been burdened with this task, without the necessary knowledge and tools to create the solution -- it seems you've been set up to fail, and need to bring it to the department head, or registrar.

And if there's $10k's worth of downtime associated with failure of this device, one would hope it's at least reviewed by some or all of the above, especially if the designer has to resort to soliciting the internet for ideas.

Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 
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