Author Topic: A look at my Symmetricom GPSDO / 10MHz reference (OCXO + Furuno receiver)  (Read 423294 times)

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Offline NivagSwerdna

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I'm a bit out of my depth here... but... after fiddling with some R values I seem to have a good output from the LT6551 (wow it was small).

Firstly I tried driving a 50R but this seemed to be a bit much for the output of the UCCM-P so I upped this by adding a 67R I had lying around giving around 120R and now I am seeing sufficient output on the LT6551 side (around 3V pp) after fixed x2 gain....

For bias I used a 5k4 and 1k5 I had lying around.

I wish I had made a PCB... now to wire up some outputs and see if it can drive the SDG1025 and Racal-Dana 1999 Counter...

I have 4 outputs.   :)
« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 01:12:05 pm by NivagSwerdna »
 

Offline NivagSwerdna

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I just received what claims to be a 240V to 6V 2A power adapter from China....

When I power the UCCM-P and other bits I get the same behaviour as I do with my bench supply... i.e. during the 5-10 min OCXO warm up phase I get a whining noise and the voltage dips to such a level that the Arduino etc brown out until the OCXO is warm and then everything is good.

How are people powering their gadgets?  Do I need to split the supplies?  One for UCCM-P, another for the rest?

Thanks in advance
 

Offline Electro Fan

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I have not found or seen any official documentation for this board or the Trimble equivalents.(you can google for Trimble 63090 or 73090)
You can enable a once per second string but it is hex data string, not NMEA data.

As Brainbox mentioned the 4 mounting holes are not all ground - one of them is connected to the 5 volt regulator.

The M-act button does manually enable the 10 MHz output even if no GPS lock has been achieved. In the case of the my Trimble which has been running for months constantly it is very accurate in the short term from a cold start. With no GPS connected after the oven is warm it is currently within 4 mHz of proper 10 MHz. So if you had to take the unit out of the lab and just needed a quick reference it would do quite nicely even without GPS lock.

Some questions about M-act and GPSDOs in general:

When you press the M-act button does it output the 10 MHz signal continuously (until you press the button again), or does it output the 10 MHz signal only while you hold the button down?

If you don't use the antenna and you are happy being within 4 mHz of properly 10 MHz (I presume that is within in 4 milliHertz), can the system operate in this reduced accuracy mode indefinitely?  (For example if you don't have a good place to mount the antenna?)  Or is this reduced accuracy mode only available after you have initially established a GPS signal with the antenna?

Does a GPSDO antenna need to be outside with line of sight or can it be outside without line of sight, or inside with line of sight, or inside without line of sight?

Sorry for asking this (I know it's been discussed in other threads but I don't recall the conclusion), but is it better to use a GPSDO 10 MHz sine wave or square wave for a clock input to test equipment (frequency counter, oscilloscope, spectrum analyzer, etc.)?  Same answer or different answer when providing a clock input for communications equipment (ham transceivers, etc.)?

Last question (for now), what is the purpose of the 1 PPS Output vs the 10 MHz Output?

Thanks!

« Last Edit: May 13, 2016, 06:08:59 pm by Electro Fan »
 

Offline uncle_bob

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I have not found or seen any official documentation for this board or the Trimble equivalents.(you can google for Trimble 63090 or 73090)
You can enable a once per second string but it is hex data string, not NMEA data.

As Brainbox mentioned the 4 mounting holes are not all ground - one of them is connected to the 5 volt regulator.

The M-act button does manually enable the 10 MHz output even if no GPS lock has been achieved. In the case of the my Trimble which has been running for months constantly it is very accurate in the short term from a cold start. With no GPS connected after the oven is warm it is currently within 4 mHz of proper 10 MHz. So if you had to take the unit out of the lab and just needed a quick reference it would do quite nicely even without GPS lock.

Some questions about M-act and GPSDOs in general:

When you press the M-act button does it output the 10 MHz signal continuously (until you press the button again), or does it output the 10 MHz signal only while you hold the button down?

If you don't use the antenna and you are happy being within 4 mHz of properly 10 MHz (I presume that is within in 4 milliHertz), can the system operate in this reduced accuracy mode indefinitely?  (For example if you don't have a good place to mount the antenna?)  Or is this reduced accuracy mode only available after you have initially established a GPS signal with the antenna?

Does a GPSDO antenna need to be outside with line of sight or can it be outside without line of sight, or inside with line of sight, or inside without line of sight?

Sorry for asking this (I know it's been discussed in other threads but I don't recall the conclusion), but is it better to use a GPSDO 10 MHz sine wave or square wave for a clock input to test equipment (frequency counter, oscilloscope, spectrum analyzer, etc.)?  Same answer or different answer when providing a clock input for communications equipment (ham transceivers, etc.)?

Last question (for now), what is the purpose of the 1 PPS Output vs the 10 MHz Output?

Thanks!

Hi

The OCXO has an unknown aging spec (could be 1 ppb / day). It also has an unknown retrace spec (could be 1 ppb over 24 hours). What is the temperature stability? Again, who knows. Warmup  ... orientation .... voltage .... who knows. If it holds 10 ppb for a week without the antenna, it's doing ok.

(1 Hz at 10 MHz is 100 ppb ...).

Bob
 

Offline Electro Fan

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I have not found or seen any official documentation for this board or the Trimble equivalents.(you can google for Trimble 63090 or 73090)
You can enable a once per second string but it is hex data string, not NMEA data.

As Brainbox mentioned the 4 mounting holes are not all ground - one of them is connected to the 5 volt regulator.

The M-act button does manually enable the 10 MHz output even if no GPS lock has been achieved. In the case of the my Trimble which has been running for months constantly it is very accurate in the short term from a cold start. With no GPS connected after the oven is warm it is currently within 4 mHz of proper 10 MHz. So if you had to take the unit out of the lab and just needed a quick reference it would do quite nicely even without GPS lock.

Some questions about M-act and GPSDOs in general:

When you press the M-act button does it output the 10 MHz signal continuously (until you press the button again), or does it output the 10 MHz signal only while you hold the button down?

If you don't use the antenna and you are happy being within 4 mHz of properly 10 MHz (I presume that is within in 4 milliHertz), can the system operate in this reduced accuracy mode indefinitely?  (For example if you don't have a good place to mount the antenna?)  Or is this reduced accuracy mode only available after you have initially established a GPS signal with the antenna?

Does a GPSDO antenna need to be outside with line of sight or can it be outside without line of sight, or inside with line of sight, or inside without line of sight?

Sorry for asking this (I know it's been discussed in other threads but I don't recall the conclusion), but is it better to use a GPSDO 10 MHz sine wave or square wave for a clock input to test equipment (frequency counter, oscilloscope, spectrum analyzer, etc.)?  Same answer or different answer when providing a clock input for communications equipment (ham transceivers, etc.)?

Last question (for now), what is the purpose of the 1 PPS Output vs the 10 MHz Output?

Thanks!

Hi

The OCXO has an unknown aging spec (could be 1 ppb / day). It also has an unknown retrace spec (could be 1 ppb over 24 hours). What is the temperature stability? Again, who knows. Warmup  ... orientation .... voltage .... who knows. If it holds 10 ppb for a week without the antenna, it's doing ok.

(1 Hz at 10 MHz is 100 ppb ...).

Bob

That's cool but I'm still hoping to get some answers to questions I asked ;)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2016, 05:56:31 am by Electro Fan »
 

Offline edpalmer42

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That's cool but I'm still hoping to get some answers to questions I asked ;)

Sorry, but Bob's standard answer to questions like these is "It depends" - which is absolutely true!

Okay, maybe a few more details.....

Quote
If you don't use the antenna and you are happy being within 4 mHz of properly 10 MHz (I presume that is within in 4 milliHertz), can the system operate in this reduced accuracy mode indefinitely?  (For example if you don't have a good place to mount the antenna?)  Or is this reduced accuracy mode only available after you have initially established a GPS signal with the antenna?

That depends.  ;)  If you're using a surplus GPSDO, you don't know what the design criteria were.  Some GPSDOs take a few weeks(?) to learn how the OCXO ages.  After that, if they lose the GPS signal, they'll nudge the OCXO along to try to compensate for the drift.  Some aren't so smart.  The only way to determine how a particular type of GPSDO will react is to try it.

Quote
Does a GPSDO antenna need to be outside with line of sight or can it be outside without line of sight, or inside with line of sight, or inside without line of sight?

That depends.   ;D I don't know where you are, but, in general, you need some level of visibility towards the equator.  Obviously, outside with clear sky is better.  Newer GPSDOs have more sensitive receivers that can often work quite happily through a standard plywood and shingle roof.  The antenna also makes a difference.  A timing grade antenna has lots of gain and better filtering to help give good signals under challenging conditions.  Often they give good enough signal strength that an old, slightly deaf GPSDO works as well as a newer, more sensitive unit.  Don't get dazzled by the higher number of channels in the newer receivers.  Some of the best GPSDOs around only have a six channel receiver.

Quote
Sorry for asking this (I know it's been discussed in other threads but I don't recall the conclusion), but is it better to use a GPSDO 10 MHz sine wave or square wave for a clock input to test equipment (frequency counter, oscilloscope, spectrum analyzer, etc.)?  Same answer or different answer when providing a clock input for communications equipment (ham transceivers, etc.)?

That depends.   >:D  (I'm enjoying this way too much!) I've found that lots of equipment doesn't properly specify the external standard input.  They might specify maximum voltage, but sometimes not impedance and often, don't mention waveshape or frequency tolerance at all.  Using a GPSDO as an external reference for communications equipment is even more of a crapshoot.  If the equipment multiplies the reference up to a higher RF frequency, you probably need a really clean reference with very low phase noise.  GPSDOs almost never provide a signal that's clean enough.  You may need some kind of clean-up oscillator that's phase-locked to the GPSDO output to get a clean enough signal.

Quote
Last question (for now), what is the purpose of the 1 PPS Output vs the 10 MHz Output?

It varies.  :-DD  Some systems use the 10 MHz as the primary system clock.  There could be a multiplier or PLL to boost the frequency.  The 1 PPS might be used as an time-of-day / elapsed time sort of thing.  They could also use the 1 PPS with a phase-lock loop to lock the system's internal oscillator to the GPSDO.

Bottom line on these surplus GPSDOs is that we really don't know how well they'll perform until somebody buys them and starts doing tests and measurements.  That's the way it will always be.  That's the value of a forum like this.  Everybody can share their test results and build a picture of how well multiple units work under multiple conditions.  The alternative is to pay many, many dollars and buy new units straight from the manufacturer.  Then you'll get a full set of specs and can ask the manufacturer all the questions you want.  But, even then, don't be surprised if you get a few blank looks.

Evil Ed  >:D


« Last Edit: May 14, 2016, 06:59:14 am by edpalmer42 »
 

Online Vgkid

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Some questions about M-act and GPSDOs in general:

When you press the M-act button does it output the 10 MHz signal continuously (until you press the button again), or does it output the 10 MHz signal only while you hold the button down?

If you don't use the antenna and you are happy being within 4 mHz of properly 10 MHz (I presume that is within in 4 milliHertz), can the system operate in this reduced accuracy mode indefinitely?  (For example if you don't have a good place to mount the antenna?)  Or is this reduced accuracy mode only available after you have initially established a GPS signal with the antenna?

Does a GPSDO antenna need to be outside with line of sight or can it be outside without line of sight, or inside with line of sight, or inside without line of sight?

Sorry for asking this (I know it's been discussed in other threads but I don't recall the conclusion), but is it better to use a GPSDO 10 MHz sine wave or square wave for a clock input to test equipment (frequency counter, oscilloscope, spectrum analyzer, etc.)?  Same answer or different answer when providing a clock input for communications equipment (ham transceivers, etc.)?

Last question (for now), what is the purpose of the 1 PPS Output vs the 10 MHz Output?

Thanks!
1) In the thread somewhere.
2) should stay in holdover permanently. Then you rely on the aging rates of the ocxo. Which will need to be factored in.
3) My antenna is in my window, it works.
4) depends on the gear. Some doesn't care about the shape.
5) You lock oscillators to the 10Mhz easier. The 1pps is almost a universal gps output.  Often ised for clock(time) timing
The ocxo is most likely a Rakon ROX5242T2
http://www.rakon.com/products/families/download/file?fid=39.145
Edit: I see ED beat me to posting.
If you own any North Hills Electronics gear, message me. L&N Fan
 

Offline PA0PBZ

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in general, you need some level of visibility towards the equator.

 :-//
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 

Offline NivagSwerdna

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When you press the M-act button does it output the 10 MHz signal continuously (until you press the button again), or does it output the 10 MHz signal only while you hold the button down?
Never tried it but I believe a previous poster (try reading the thread  :-DD) said it goes into a mode with odd flashing but outputs the undisciplined frequency (and you don't need to keep holding the button).
If you don't use the antenna and you are happy being within 4 mHz of properly 10 MHz (I presume that is within in 4 milliHertz), can the system operate in this reduced accuracy mode indefinitely?  (For example if you don't have a good place to mount the antenna?)  Or is this reduced accuracy mode only available after you have initially established a GPS signal with the antenna?
That's more than one question.  If you don't have an antenna then you don't have a GPSDO you have a OXCO with a small amount of disciplining logic based on prior measurement, all bets are off with respect to accuracy if the device has been out of reception for more than its holdover specification which is likely to be a relatively short period of the time.
Does a GPSDO antenna need to be outside with line of sight or can it be outside without line of sight, or inside with line of sight, or inside without line of sight?
The more satellites you have line of sight to the better the solution since it allows more of the errors (ionospheric delay etc) to be minimised.  Ideally you need line of sight since this will reduce error due to multipath and maximises likely observable satellites.  Solving for position requires at least 4 satellites (3D worth of position and 1D worth of time), solving for time requires less once position is known (1 might do) although as before the more satellites you have the more you can eliminate residual error and hence get a better estimate for a local clock.  In practical terms you need access to some sky but perhaps through a window would do.
Sorry for asking this (I know it's been discussed in other threads but I don't recall the conclusion), but is it better to use a GPSDO 10 MHz sine wave or square wave for a clock input to test equipment (frequency counter, oscilloscope, spectrum analyzer, etc.)?  Same answer or different answer when providing a clock input for communications equipment (ham transceivers, etc.)?
A square wave is a mix of many sine waves at different frequencies/amplitudes according to Mr Fourier.  (see Youtube/google if you need more info).  Sine wave is your friend for a continuous frequency, if you want something to tell you the occurrence of an event you will need something with a discontinuity like a pulse with the nasty harmonics that brings.
Last question (for now), what is the purpose of the 1 PPS Output vs the 10 MHz Output?
It drives things that need a 1Hz pulse... e.g. my Raspberry Pi based NTPd.
Thanks!
You're welcome!
 

Offline edpalmer42

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in general, you need some level of visibility towards the equator.

 :-//

Okay, maybe that was a bit extreme.

If you live near the equator, it doesn't matter what direction you look, you'll see lots of GPS satellites.  As you move further from the equator, you'll find that more birds are visible towards the equator than away from it.  If you're further than north or south 60 degrees, all satellites will be towards the equator.  So an antenna location that has good visibility towards the equator will maximize the number of satellites that you can see.

Another aspect of antenna location is geometry.  For example, in the northern hemisphere, east and south visibility would be better than east and west.  East and south would give you better triangulation to determine your position.  Bad geometry causes uncertainty and jitter in your calculated position.  Position jitter causes timing jitter.  In GPS terminology, geometry is called Dilution of Precision (DOP).  They break it down into TDOP (time), HDOP (horizontal), VDOP (vertical) and PDOP (position).  Smaller DOP values are better.

Ed
 

Offline PA0PBZ

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If you're further than north or south 60 degrees, all satellites will be towards the equator.  So an antenna location that has good visibility towards the equator will maximize the number of satellites that you can see.

Somehow I assumed that the orbits where spread evenly around earth but indeed, nothing above 60o.
That shows once more that you are never too old to learn.

Thanks Ed.

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Offline Bryan

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if you want some monitoring software running under windows, here it is:
http://www.romahn.info/symmetricom/Z38SY.ZIP
I've patched Ulrich Bangert's famous Z38XX to at least partially work with our Symmetricom UCCM-P.
For use first set the right "parameters" i.e. your com-port and hit ok.
Try the various functions under the "view" tab.
Kutte
Hallo Kutte super Programm  :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+, vielen Dank hier für das posten !!!
Gruß Dieter

I wandered over to the website for the programmer. Sadly it looks like he passed away a couple years ago.
-=Bryan=-
 

Offline uncle_bob

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if you want some monitoring software running under windows, here it is:
http://www.romahn.info/symmetricom/Z38SY.ZIP
I've patched Ulrich Bangert's famous Z38XX to at least partially work with our Symmetricom UCCM-P.
For use first set the right "parameters" i.e. your com-port and hit ok.
Try the various functions under the "view" tab.
Kutte
Hallo Kutte super Programm  :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+, vielen Dank hier für das posten !!!
Gruß Dieter

I wandered over to the website for the programmer. Sadly it looks like he passed away a couple years ago.

Hi

There has been an effort to continue Ulrich's work. It's not super active.

Bob
 

Offline Macbeth

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Hi

There has been an effort to continue Ulrich's work. It's not super active.

Bob
Passed away far too early. He also did the excellent EZGPIB, which is just as tiny and completely bloatware and installer-less as Z38XX.

In order to continue then the source-code must be out there? A complete re-write would be easier than reverse engineering.
 

Offline uncle_bob

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Hi

There has been an effort to continue Ulrich's work. It's not super active.

Bob
Passed away far too early. He also did the excellent EZGPIB, which is just as tiny and completely bloatware and installer-less as Z38XX.

In order to continue then the source-code must be out there? A complete re-write would be easier than reverse engineering.


Hi

Apparently a neighbor / friend has access to the source code and has issued one or two minor patched versions. Based on a lot of correspondence back when the code was being developed -- there was a lot of guessing going on. Much of the protocol information was incomplete. The code was written so the outputs looked sensible on the GPSDO's available at that time. I suspect that without the notes on how this or that was come up with, the source code might not be very useful.

Bob
 

Offline Macbeth

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Apparently a neighbor / friend has access to the source code and has issued one or two minor patched versions. Based on a lot of correspondence back when the code was being developed -- there was a lot of guessing going on. Much of the protocol information was incomplete. The code was written so the outputs looked sensible on the GPSDO's available at that time. I suspect that without the notes on how this or that was come up with, the source code might not be very useful.
I've always been of the opinion that ultimately the code IS the documentation. Merciless refactoring is also not a problem. (That was the political term used to get a pointy head project manager agree to a complete rewrite without knowing it. I think they have cottoned on by now!  :-DD ).

Any source-code is better than no source-code. That's why we have such a big thing about open source!
 

Offline uncle_bob

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Apparently a neighbor / friend has access to the source code and has issued one or two minor patched versions. Based on a lot of correspondence back when the code was being developed -- there was a lot of guessing going on. Much of the protocol information was incomplete. The code was written so the outputs looked sensible on the GPSDO's available at that time. I suspect that without the notes on how this or that was come up with, the source code might not be very useful.
I've always been of the opinion that ultimately the code IS the documentation. Merciless refactoring is also not a problem. (That was the political term used to get a pointy head project manager agree to a complete rewrite without knowing it. I think they have cottoned on by now!  :-DD ).

Any source-code is better than no source-code. That's why we have such a big thing about open source!

Hi

Well the reason it's not open source is indeed the other side of open source ---- "look at the stupid stuff this guy did... ha,ha,ha ...."

Bob
 

Offline NivagSwerdna

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Please help out a new player...

I have the output of the 10MHz and I want to feed this into my LT6551 which is fed with 3V3 and will give a gain of 2.  So I want to have a signal that is roughly 1V6 pp I will then bias it so it varies 0 to +1v6...

Observing the output of the UCCM-P when put into my Rigol which is high Z... I see approx 2V9 pp.

Into 50 Ohms this gets squashed to a dismal 520mV pp...

... into 67 Ohms I get 1V84

into 117 Ohms I get 2V28

into 78k Ohms I get pretty much the same as high Z... 2v8... 2v9 ish

I assume all this is trying to tell me something about the output impedance of the device... do I just pick a number around 60 ohms or is more thought required?

« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 08:29:34 pm by NivagSwerdna »
 

Offline uncle_bob

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Please help out a new player...

I have the output of the 10MHz and I want to feed this into my LT6551 which is fed with 3V3 and will give a gain of 2.  So I want to have a signal that is roughly 1V6 pp I will then bias it so it varies 0 to +1v6...

Observing the output of the UCCM-P when put into my Rigol which is high Z... I see approx 2V9 pp.

Into 50 Ohms this gets squashed to a dismal 520mV pp...

... into 67 Ohms I get 1V84

into 117 Ohms I get 2V28

into 78k Ohms I get pretty much the same as high Z... 2v8... 2v9 ish

I assume all this is trying to tell me something about the output impedance of the device... do I just pick a number around 60 ohms or is more thought required?

Hi

The output of the device likely goes through a filter. The filter tuning is set up to work at a specific load impedance (likely 50 ohms). Change the load impedance and you change the characteristics (cutoff, attenuation) of the filter.

Bob
 

Offline Bryan

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All:

Would anyone know what the following output statements likely mean in terms of the 10MHZ output.

freq cor  = -5.122888e-09
phase cor = 2.000000e-11
gps phase = 2.333333e-09


Code: [Select]
UCCM-P > diagnostic:loop?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5/18/2016 05:19:02
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

   LOS      MEAS       NCO STATUS WEIGHT PBUC FBUC DBUC LBUC IBUC G  M TC
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 0:  1  0.000e+00  0.000e+00 0x07AC   X   700  700    0    0    2  2  4 29
 1:  1  0.000e+00  0.000e+00 0x068C   X   700  700    0    0    0  2 14 226
GPS: 0  2.524e-09 -5.123e-09 0x0000   1  ---- 1000 1000 ---- ----  3  6 31
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
freq cor  = -5.122888e-09
phase cor = 2.000000e-11
gps phase = 2.333333e-09
temp cor  = -8.082023e-11
Command Complete

-=Bryan=-
 

Offline NivagSwerdna

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The output of the device likely goes through a filter. The filter tuning is set up to work at a specific load impedance (likely 50 ohms). Change the load impedance and you change the characteristics (cutoff, attenuation) of the filter.
Hm... OK but at 50 Ohms it is a very small signal.  I don't think I have the tools to take this much further... presumably I would need a spectrum analyser and then look at the spectrum at different output loads.  I guess I'm going to pick 62 Ohms and see what happens.
 

Offline NivagSwerdna

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freq cor  = -5.122888e-09
phase cor = 2.000000e-11
gps phase = 2.333333e-09
Of all the numbers in diagnostic:loop? there seem to be only six that change.
On the GPS line of the table two numbers 2.524e-09 -5.123e-09 here change.  The second seems to be a rounded version of freq_cor.
Then we have freq cor, phase cor, gps phase, temp cor.

phase cor & gps phase are only calculated when a GPS solution for PPS is available.

Over time the numbers seem relatively stable... so my guess would be that they are simply the adjustment of your aged temperature sensitive OCXO discplined by frequency and temperature to the GPS signal over time using presumably some form of PID/Kalman filtering.

EFC might be another thing to look at... I haven't had the time myself.
 

Offline Nuno_pt

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NivagSwerdna, if all you want is two outputs why you don´t try an Wilkinson divider like this one < http://www.jrmiller.demon.co.uk/projects/ministd/wilk.pdf > very simple to do and it's for 10MHz.

Or look at this one < http://www.kolumbus.fi/~ks9292/10MHz_Rubidium_standard/Dist_amp_sch.pdf >
Nuno
CT2IRY
 

Offline NivagSwerdna

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Offline Nuno_pt

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Yep, I only saw it now, it was one quick search.

G4HUP does one with 4 out's, or with 8 ways, I think that kit price is £51.

Or you can use one video amplifier box from ebay, look at Gerry Sweeney web.

http://gerrysweeney.com/build-a-10mhz-rubidium-frequency-standard-and-signal-distribution-amp-for-my-lab/
http://gerrysweeney.com/10mhz-rubidium-frequency-standard-and-signal-distribution-amp-follow-up/
Nuno
CT2IRY
 


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