Author Topic: Batteroo testing  (Read 124582 times)

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Offline FrankBuss

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2016, 10:46:25 PM »
4 AAA's I tried to do some tests myself, I gave up due to Picoscope software that does not allow logging of data  |O.
I had a Picoscope many years ago, and it was possible with it. But looks like they removed the feature in later software? https://www.picotech.com/support/topic6815.html :o Maybe the Picolog software supports your Picoscope.

But they have a nice and documented API, it is easy to write some data logging program for it.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #51 on: December 20, 2016, 10:47:30 PM »
If it cut out at 1.1V then it's not using all the battery. There could still be 10%-20% left in there.

Which is the ballpark we all expect the Batteriser to improve things by on most modern products, at best.
If that turns out to be the case then it's a dead duck product. No one is going to give up the functionality of their battery gauge for 10-20% extra battery life and have the thing just die on them.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #52 on: December 20, 2016, 10:52:14 PM »
One of Batteroo principal claims is that they can be used with "dead" batteries.

I think we need to do tests starting with "dead" batteries and show the public how much longer things will run.

eg. A LED torch might start up again with a Batteriser but I don't think it'll run for more than 20-30 seconds. That's a looooong way off the 80% that Bob claims it will do.  :-//

This would make for good, simple to understand video footage ("Batteroo lies!").

 

Offline CJay

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #53 on: December 20, 2016, 10:56:07 PM »
If it cut out at 1.1V then it's not using all the battery. There could still be 10%-20% left in there.

Which is the ballpark we all expect the Batteriser to improve things by on most modern products, at best.
If that turns out to be the case then it's a dead duck product. No one is going to give up the functionality of their battery gauge for 10-20% extra battery life and have the thing just die on them.

Well, they will, but once they realise it's the Batteroo doing it they'll stop using them.

Or just forget them and throw them away with the dead cells and not bother to replace them. 

I think it'll have a brief surge in sales if it ever makes it to the shelves of a supermarket but it'll be on the shelf end 'tat' display and, if the company survives, eventually end up being sold via direct marketing TV shopping channels.
2E0EOA
 

Offline amyk

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #54 on: December 20, 2016, 11:07:39 PM »
I'd like to see inside that MP3 player --- if you can find a datasheet for the DC-DC it uses, you can compare the stated Vi(min) to the observed results.

If it cut out at 1.1V then it's not using all the battery. There could still be 10%-20% left in there.

Which is the ballpark we all expect the Batteriser to improve things by on most modern products, at best.
If that turns out to be the case then it's a dead duck product. No one is going to give up the functionality of their battery gauge for 10-20% extra battery life and have the thing just die on them.
...that is if the 10-20% wasn't already consumed by the boost converter losses... the quoted datasheet efficiencies are a best-case figure, and especially near the end when the internal resistance of the cell increases and the booster tries to draw more current, leading to even more voltage drop, the efficiency will nosedive.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #55 on: December 20, 2016, 11:23:03 PM »
One of Batteroo principal claims is that they can be used with "dead" batteries.
I think we need to do tests starting with "dead" batteries and show the public how much longer things will run.

That is precisely why I have this test as part of my spreadsheet.
It's done in a controlled manor so you can easily get a direct "extra run time" percentage from the "dead" battery.
 

Online amspire

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #56 on: December 21, 2016, 12:01:22 AM »
I don't know if you can regard the claims in the Batteriser Twins commercial that was mentioned in an earlier thread as an official Batteroo statement, but they make a very simple claim that should be easy to test.

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-751-how-to-debunk-a-product-(the-batteriser)/msg1093066/#msg1093066

"Guaranteed to increase battery life by at least two times, because two is better then one"


 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #57 on: December 21, 2016, 12:06:05 AM »
Who sells those AAA to AA battery adapters in Sydney?
I thought Jaycar used to have them, but can't find on their website.


 

Online amspire

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #58 on: December 21, 2016, 12:27:16 AM »
Who sells those AAA to AA battery adapters in Sydney?
I thought Jaycar used to have them, but can't find on their website.



They used to be easy to find, but I cannot see any in Australia right now. Easy to get on Aliexpress, Bangood, Deal Extreme, etc.

You could look at using this as an adapter:

https://www.jaycar.com.au/1-x-aaa-pcb-mount/p/PH9261

The length is the same as an AA battery and the width slightly less.
 

Online amspire

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #59 on: December 21, 2016, 12:58:13 AM »
A better solution would be to make a sleeve and an anode extension (with a bit of brass rod) using polymoph plastic.

https://www.jaycar.com.au/polymorph-pellets/p/NP4260

This is hand moldeable at 60 degC but when it cools it is like nylon. It is very strong.

The reason why it is probably a better solution is that you can fashion and extender that can accommodate the Batteriser and it can fit in a way that will not damage the Batteriser +ve contacts. Leave the negative contact uncovered.

It takes a bit of skill, but this stuff is magic. To make it bond permanently with the brass rod, just make sure that both the rod and the polymorph plastic heat up to over 60 degC together (ie chuck it in a cup of hot water until you see the polymorph plastic turn transparent.)

If you are molding over another object (like a battery), as long as the object doesn't reach 60 degC, the polymorph plastic will not stick.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 01:01:54 AM by amspire »
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #60 on: December 21, 2016, 01:25:02 AM »
Who sells those AAA to AA battery adapters in Sydney?
I thought Jaycar used to have them, but can't find on their website.



Isn't this exactly the sort of thing 3D printers are for?
 

Offline razvanme

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #61 on: December 21, 2016, 01:48:25 AM »
I think you guys are overdoing things.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-a-AAA-battery-work-as-a-AA-battery/?ALLSTEPS

Paper + Adhesive tape + Aluminium foil. 5 minutes.

Also is this thread going off topic?
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #62 on: December 21, 2016, 01:59:19 AM »
And of course there is something at thingiverse:

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:84337

But a professional adapter would be better, otherwise Batteroo could say that it stopped working because of the adapter. I guess they might even say you are not supposed to use AAA batteries in AA devices, but then they may counter with another story of poor snails trapped in wells anyway, and you have no chance with facts.

Still on topic to discuss if it is valid to use an AAA to AA adapter and which one.
 
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Online amspire

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #63 on: December 21, 2016, 02:05:37 AM »
Here is 15 minutes effort with Polymorph plastic. I used the top of a small fuse as the anode extender.

Beats 3D printing any day for speed.  :)

This is my Batteriser friendly design. It is actually very strong and grips the battery firmly. it wasn't quite set in these photos - it gets whiter after an hour or so.



« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 02:26:36 AM by amspire »
 

Offline ez24

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #64 on: December 21, 2016, 05:56:31 AM »
but I found another toy, with one AAA battery

I love it  :-+ :-+ :-+

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #65 on: December 21, 2016, 08:57:46 AM »
314 minutes for the MuVo MP3 player.
Good thing is when the battery dies the DC-DC convter just drops out and draw no more current. So the "dead" battery (recovered to 1.31V) is ready to go on the Batteriser when it arrives.
Dropout voltage was measured at just over 0.9V, so a well designed product. But of course according to Batteroo that test with a PSU and a sense meter on the terminal is NOT a valid test  :palm:
 

Online amspire

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #66 on: December 21, 2016, 09:09:28 AM »
314 minutes for the MuVo MP3 player.
Good thing is when the battery dies the DC-DC convter just drops out and draw no more current. So the "dead" battery (recovered to 1.31V) is ready to go on the Batteriser when it arrives.
Dropout voltage was measured at just over 0.9V, so a well designed product. But of course according to Batteroo that test with a PSU and a sense meter on the terminal is NOT a valid test  :palm:
Trouble is you will put the Batteriser on and get another 20 minutes and Batteroo will say - "See it works! Power from a dead battery." You will need to have a second flat battery that you use again without the Batteriser so you can compare.
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #67 on: December 21, 2016, 09:24:20 AM »
Trouble is you will put the Batteriser on and get another 20 minutes and Batteroo will say - "See it works! Power from a dead battery." You will need to have a second flat battery that you use again without the Batteriser so you can compare.
No one ever doubted that it has a little benefit for some devices (but we'll see). The problem was the 800% claim, and how it works if it is used from the beginning with a fresh battery.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #68 on: December 21, 2016, 09:33:41 AM »
Trouble is you will put the Batteriser on and get another 20 minutes and Batteroo will say - "See it works! Power from a dead battery." You will need to have a second flat battery that you use again without the Batteriser so you can compare.
No one ever doubted that it has a little benefit for some devices (but we'll see). The problem was the 800% claim, and how it works if it is used from the beginning with a fresh battery.

That's what I want to do in my spreadsheet, get a list of just how much improvement you get in a whole bunch of products. Their claim is not 20%, it's an order of magnitude more and that's the selling point "Only 20% of a battery's capacity is used"
 

Offline max_torque

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #69 on: December 21, 2016, 09:44:17 AM »
Depending on many factors such as discharge rate, recovery time, specific battery chemistry and recovery time (ie how long you leave the battery without load before reloading it), you'll get a bit more run time with a "dead" battery, so make sure you do that test too, and take that time off the time the batteroo extends!
 
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Offline FrankBuss

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #70 on: December 21, 2016, 12:31:05 PM »
I'm preparing the automated tests for creating the characteristic curves for tomorrow. I thought I had a proper 0.1 ohm shunt, but all I can find is an old wirewound cement resistor. It says "R15 10%", so 0.15 ohm. I'll use this for the 100 mA to 1 A tests.

For measuring the exact resistance, I used my SPD3303D power supply in constant current mode with 1 A limit and a BM257s to verify the current. Turns out the Siglent thing is pretty accurate, as you can see in the image below (too bad it doesn't have sense terminals for the voltage). Then I measured the voltage drop with my benchtop multimeter. Depending on where I measure it, it changes from 154.50 to 154.80 mV. Might need to solder some thicker silver wires to avoid this voltage drop, but I don't care about errors less than 1%, high precision measurements is a science of its own, will leave this to the experts.



Even after some time the resistor gets barely warm. Now the voltage drop is at 154.24 mV and doesn't change. So I can assume a resistance of 154.24 milliohm, which I will use as a calibration value when measuring the current with the initial setup I posted. Is this ok?

Next I'll replace the 8x1 mux with a 4x2 mux, to switch both multimeter inputs as close as possible to the shunt and the uCurrent and do some tests with a voltage regulator module I have here, which has a efficiency graph in the datasheet, and my graph should then look the same. Then I can just connect the Batteroo instead of my test module, run the script again, and we'll have a curve in no time :)
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #71 on: December 21, 2016, 01:01:04 PM »
Depending on many factors such as discharge rate, recovery time, specific battery chemistry and recovery time (ie how long you leave the battery without load before reloading it), you'll get a bit more run time with a "dead" battery, so make sure you do that test too, and take that time off the time the batteroo extends!

Yes, that was on my list.
 

Offline ez24

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #72 on: December 21, 2016, 01:30:06 PM »
I'm preparing the automated tests for creating the characteristic curves for tomorrow. I thought I had a proper 0.1 ohm shunt, but all I can find is an old wirewound cement resistor. It says "R15 10%", so 0.15 ohm. I'll use this for the 100 mA to 1 A tests.

I like the train better and hope you will do it first. If you are not doing video you could take a dozen or so pictures (if the wheels do not wear out).

 I think the best use of these things will be in toys and these things will sell very well next Christmas at toy stores (if they work)


Offline FrankBuss

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #73 on: December 21, 2016, 02:30:18 PM »
I like the train better and hope you will do it first. If you are not doing video you could take a dozen or so pictures (if the wheels do not wear out).

 I think the best use of these things will be in toys and these things will sell very well next Christmas at toy stores (if they work)

I'll do both tests. But the train will run for some hours (I'll record it full time on video), so meanwhile I can use the second sleeve for the in-depth tests.

Modified setup idea

 
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Offline ez24

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #74 on: December 21, 2016, 03:45:24 PM »
I'll do both tests. But the train will run for some hours (I'll record it full time on video), so meanwhile I can use the second sleeve for the in-depth tests.


When is the ETA?  ie how many hours left


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