Author Topic: Batteroo testing  (Read 160988 times)

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Offline dexters_lab

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #550 on: January 20, 2017, 07:07:12 am »
Setup is as follows:

PSUA (Supply), HP 6632B, CV mode supplying the Batteriser input voltage
PSUB (Load), HP 6632B, CC mode loading/sinking the Batteriser output fixed at 125mA

Do you need a special flavour of power supply (such as your lovely HPs) to do this, or is there a way of doing this with most lab supplies in constant current mode?

yes they have to be designed that way, they are not unique but they are a bit unusual in being able to do this

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #551 on: January 20, 2017, 01:35:16 pm »
I can confirm similar but not as bad behavior with a 1.4V input, 150ohm load (resistor box), and a Rigol DP832 PSU input.
I really don't think it is instability. It is "by design" intentional behaviour. At 150 Ohms load, the regulator is going to sleep (to save current) and waking again. This is a common method converters use if they are attempting to have a high efficiency over a wide current range.

Correct. I though it didn't have any oscillation with the Alakline but did with the PSU & NiMh, but that's because my Alakline was too high a voltage (1.5V) and the regulator simply wasn't on at all.
Repeating test with 1.3V alkaline shows the same oscillation.
So yes, it's the chip going into a sleep type mode and the caps charging.
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #552 on: January 20, 2017, 05:04:28 pm »
Is it possible to better simulate a battery with a PSU by simple using a series resistor to simulate the ESR of a battery? Of course, the resistor needs to be adjusted depending of the output voltage, but can be fixed for a given output voltage, unless the load gets too high. But might be more complicated if you want to do it right. Looks like there is some demand for this, because there is a neat battery simulator device:

http://www.tek.com/tektronix-and-keithley-dc-power-supplies/keithley-series-2281s-battery-simulator
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Offline HKJ

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #553 on: January 21, 2017, 02:46:48 am »
Is it possible to better simulate a battery with a PSU by simple using a series resistor to simulate the ESR of a battery? Of course, the resistor needs to be adjusted depending of the output voltage, but can be fixed for a given output voltage, unless the load gets too high. But might be more complicated if you want to do it right. Looks like there is some demand for this, because there is a neat battery simulator device:

http://www.tek.com/tektronix-and-keithley-dc-power-supplies/keithley-series-2281s-battery-simulator

The problem with both a resistor and that supply is impedance, batteries has fairly low impedance at high frequency, this means many devices only have a small input capacitor, they assume the battery handles it. This is difficult to simulate with a power supply, especially with long test leads.
 

Offline JiggyNinja

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #554 on: January 24, 2017, 02:30:33 am »
I can confirm similar but not as bad behavior with a 1.4V input, 150ohm load (resistor box), and a Rigol DP832 PSU input.
I really don't think it is instability. It is "by design" intentional behaviour. At 150 Ohms load, the regulator is going to sleep (to save current) and waking again. This is a common method converters use if they are attempting to have a high efficiency over a wide current range.

Correct. I though it didn't have any oscillation with the Alakline but did with the PSU & NiMh, but that's because my Alakline was too high a voltage (1.5V) and the regulator simply wasn't on at all.
Repeating test with 1.3V alkaline shows the same oscillation.
So yes, it's the chip going into a sleep type mode and the caps charging.
Are you sure they're the same? Frank posted this screenshot waayyyy back on page 4, and it's exactly what would be expected from a charge/drain cycle with hysteresis (a near-perfect sawtooth shape).



The image you posted a couple pages back is qualitatively very different. This one is much more distorted.


That does not look like cyclic periods of charging and draining, it is much more distorted than that. What is the source of this image? What conditions was it measured under?

Which one are you getting from your batteries?

EDIT: I saw the graphs you posted on the last page, and they're the same type as Frank's, and different from the blue one.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 05:49:25 am by JiggyNinja »
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #555 on: January 29, 2017, 11:03:04 pm »
OK, I got my 4 x AA Batteriser sleeves last week and here is my first test.

I have very simply used the MAYNUO M9812 in battery testing mode with following parameters:

- 400 mA constant current
- 0.5V Cut Off voltage


The batteries use are:
- Duracell Industrial
- Model: LR6


Test 1:
- Single AA battery discharged
- 1.605 V (no load voltage at start)
- 1.43 V Starting voltage (400 mA load)
- 400 mA Constant current
- 3:48:05 Runtime to 0.5V cut off voltage
- 1.52 AH Capacity used


Test 2:
- Single AA battery with Batteriser installed
- 1.607 V (no load voltage at start)
- 1.44 V Starting voltage (400 mA load)
- 400 mA Constant current
- 2:17:34 Runtime to 0.5V cut off voltage
- 0.919 AH Capacity used


Here are the screen captures from the official Maynuo battery testing software.

Conclusion:
I am surprised how fast the voltage curve drops at about 1.2V batteriser output.
Until the total collapse, the batteriser output voltage is higher and flatter than the battery only.
But under no circumstances will I get more energy out of the battery !





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Offline Brumby

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #556 on: January 29, 2017, 11:20:38 pm »
Until the total collapse, the batteriser output voltage is higher and flatter than the battery only.
But under no circumstances will I get more energy out of the battery !

Surprise, surprise.
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #557 on: January 30, 2017, 02:51:26 am »
OK, here is my Test number 2:

This is a 6V DC GYRO motor
The current consumption is a little over 1 A at startup and then it goes down to 700 mA, when the motor has reached maximum speed.
On 4 new Duracell AA cells this motor was running for 3 hours 15 min.
On 4 new Duracell AA cells and 4 pieces Batteriser the motor ran for exact 1 hour.

The voltage graph is taken with the batteriser installed at the motor.

Conclusion:
Run time is much less with the Batteriser!
There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 
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Offline Marcel_X

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #558 on: February 04, 2017, 07:34:54 am »
Out of curiosity, has a batteroo sleeve ever been sent to anyone who can decap the boost converter IC? I did see it being mentioned in the original thread, but I don't know if that ever happened.
Does anyone know?
If it weren't for C, we'd be using BASI, PASAL, and OBOL
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #559 on: February 04, 2017, 11:24:46 am »
Can anyone with a Batteriser please use multimeter on the diode test range to see what the Batteriser looks like with a reverse voltage and no battery (or a completely flat battery)? Does it look like a diode or an open circuit?

If it looks like a diode, what is the voltage drop with the multimeter?

When a Batteriser shuts down with multiple batteries, it gets a reverse voltage.
 

Offline Ysjoelfir

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #560 on: February 04, 2017, 11:44:20 pm »
Looks like a Diode, 0,438V Drop with no battery attached.
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Offline amspire

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #561 on: February 05, 2017, 12:20:40 am »
Looks like a Diode, 0,438V Drop with no battery attached.
Thanks.

What this means is that in a multi battery device, when the first Batteroo shuts down, the current goes through this diode. The device could still keep running as if it uses 4 batteries, the other Batteroos are still providing 4.5v and this diode completes the circuit.  If the current was 1A, the voltage drop at 1A may be 0.6V and so there is a 0.6W dissapation in the chip.

How hot does the chip get with a 0.6W dissapation?

It is not that hard to measure as diodes have a reliable -2.1 to -2.2mV per degree C temperature coefficient. So if measure the ambient temperature and do a current versus voltage drop curve, you can convert this to a current versus die temperature curve. If the chip gets to 150 deg C, it is getting close to failure. Usually the chip fuses - it turns into a lump of low resistance metal.

It may be that this factor decides the real maximum current the Batteroo can supply in a multi-battery device.

The other thing that this can mean is that if you put a new battery with a Batteroo in a multi battery device, and put it in a multi battery device as the last battery, and the device was switched on as you are inserting the batteries, it may be possible to cause the Batteroo to latch up - which could cause it to try and pull the battery down to perhaps 1.2V. This would cause the Batteroo chip to overheat, and fail as above. This is a possibility, but the chip could also be a latch-up resistant design which would prevent this condition.

Dave did a video on this latch-up effect with cmos chips:



So here are two possible Batteriser failure modes that do not involve the clip shorting to the battery cell case. Both could end up with a Batteroo that shorts out the battery.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2017, 12:43:20 am by amspire »
 

Offline jippie

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #562 on: February 05, 2017, 07:04:26 am »
So here are two possible Batteriser failure modes that do not involve the clip shorting to the battery cell case. Both could end up with a Batteroo that shorts out the battery.
Another failure mode is where the clip shorts to the battery holder itself when it is metal, like in a flashlight with a metal housing. This is only an issue with two or more batteries in series.
 

Offline dexters_lab

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #563 on: February 05, 2017, 07:57:00 pm »
Out of curiosity, has a batteroo sleeve ever been sent to anyone who can decap the boost converter IC? I did see it being mentioned in the original thread, but I don't know if that ever happened.
Does anyone know?

Not as far as i know, but i can certainly send one of mine if someone can do it?
"A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
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Offline FrankBuss

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #564 on: February 05, 2017, 08:04:47 pm »
Out of curiosity, has a batteroo sleeve ever been sent to anyone who can decap the boost converter IC? I did see it being mentioned in the original thread, but I don't know if that ever happened.
Does anyone know?

Not as far as i know, but i can certainly send one of mine if someone can do it?

See here:

https://www.patreon.com/zeptobars

$2.50 per chip.
So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
 

Offline dexters_lab

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #565 on: February 05, 2017, 08:24:02 pm »
Out of curiosity, has a batteroo sleeve ever been sent to anyone who can decap the boost converter IC? I did see it being mentioned in the original thread, but I don't know if that ever happened.
Does anyone know?

Not as far as i know, but i can certainly send one of mine if someone can do it?

See here:

https://www.patreon.com/zeptobars

$2.50 per chip.

  :-+ i have messaged him

i'm sure we'll work something out and get one sent off to be done
"A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
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Offline dexters_lab

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #566 on: February 06, 2017, 01:56:31 am »
contact made, package will be leaving next week en-route to Zeptobars  :-+
"A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
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Offline testian

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #567 on: February 16, 2017, 10:58:50 pm »
Great thank you. Do you know when we can expect the results?
 

Offline Marcel_X

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #568 on: February 27, 2017, 09:03:56 am »
contact made, package will be leaving next week en-route to Zeptobars  :-+

Any news? Just being curious... Getting quite quiet here :-)
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #569 on: March 01, 2017, 12:29:09 am »
Maybe time to unpin the thread...  :popcorn:

Batteriser has gone from entertaining to embarrassing since they started shipping them.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #570 on: March 10, 2017, 11:25:51 am »
Our friend Ali is kicking up a storm over here:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/cool-invention-saves-you-money-frustration-alan-elbanhawy
Still spouting the UL test as if it's the gold standard.
Ok, I have the exact same GPS in the mail right now, I'll repeat the testing and we'll see...
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #571 on: March 10, 2017, 12:14:02 pm »
I updated the first posting in this thread, summarizing some of the results we found so far.
So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #572 on: March 10, 2017, 11:30:15 pm »
Our friend Ali is kicking up a storm over here:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/cool-invention-saves-you-money-frustration-alan-elbanhawy
Still spouting the UL test as if it's the gold standard.

A "Power System Architect at Exar Corporation" wrote that? Does anybody have the email address of his boss?
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #573 on: March 10, 2017, 11:48:32 pm »
Our friend Ali is kicking up a storm over here:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/cool-invention-saves-you-money-frustration-alan-elbanhawy
Still spouting the UL test as if it's the gold standard.
A "Power System Architect at Exar Corporation" wrote that?

One that used to work with (and presumably was the boss of) none other than Mr Batteriser himself, Dr Bob.
When Bob came knocking for a favor, I would have said my reputation wasn't worth it, friendship only goes so far.
Perhaps we might now know who might have done the ASIC for them?, he looks like a great friend to turn to for hooking up such a custom job.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/alan-elbanhawy-02522622/
« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 11:54:33 pm by EEVblog »
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #574 on: March 13, 2017, 08:38:01 am »
Mouse test, with both NiMh and an Alkaline battery.
Extra 19min on NiMh
Alkaline with a measured 1.16V dropout under load.
Not a controlled test, but said he got about an extra 6 hours use from a dead battery. 26 days for a new battery without Batteriser. That's 1% extra run time!  :-DD
Worst result yet?
Remember, a mouse was one of the products that Batteriser promoted at the time as it being useful in.
I've updated the spreadsheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18K9c2YAT0d0QABGYGpzItbvDcgfAQCRUtloEzzfXADU/



« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 08:58:18 am by EEVblog »
 


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