Author Topic: Batteroo testing  (Read 48660 times)

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Offline samgab

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #500 on: January 11, 2017, 07:52:10 PM »
It is possible to stretch a battery 4 times (or maybe more) with a batteriser, but it requires a product that stops working below 1.3V.

I can't see anyone getting anywhere near that.........

I would like to see what data leads you to that conclusion.

You need a product that stops working when the voltage drops below 1.3 volt, I do not not believe many product are that badly constructed.

As I wrote above I will publish my data in the weekend, both test with batteries and with a power supply (I used a Keithley 2460 with 4 terminal connection as battery) . The result will be as curves with hundreds of samples (Easy to do with computer control). You can see more about how I do stuff on my website.

Fantastic, can't wait to see that data, charts etc. The comparitor will be great because we'll be able to directly compare it to any number of NiMH, Alkaline, etc cells; even those li-ion "AA" cells with built in charger and DC/DC buck converter.

Incidentally, that comparitor is a fantastic tool, I just wonder, how difficult would it be to make it so there are three selections rather than two? If it is really difficult, no worries, but if it's relatively simple, that would be a great improvement, to be able to compare three different batteries/cells side by side... Anyway, it's still really useful as it is. I only ask because I have no idea how the web design for that is done.
 

Offline HKJ

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #501 on: January 11, 2017, 08:38:47 PM »
Incidentally, that comparitor is a fantastic tool, I just wonder, how difficult would it be to make it so there are three selections rather than two? If it is really difficult, no worries, but if it's relatively simple, that would be a great improvement, to be able to compare three different batteries/cells side by side... Anyway, it's still really useful as it is. I only ask because I have no idea how the web design for that is done.

There is a few issues with that. Each curve is its own image and I stack them when you select more currents/batteries. This means I would need 50% more data space. I always regenerate all the curves when doing a new review, the 50% extra generation time would be irritating. The layout also works best with two sets.
What I would more like to add was some sort of filters, this would be useful, especially in the LiIon comparator (Due to the many batteries in it), but I am always low on time and postpone it.

 

Offline dexters_lab

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #502 on: January 11, 2017, 10:51:35 PM »
Huh  :-//
I thought the Batteriser gave a constant 1.5V out regardless of input voltage?

none of mine are fixed, they all exhibit the same variable output behaviour

Frank, can you confirm if your AAA batterisers are a fixed output voltage or does the output voltage change depending on input?
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #503 on: January 12, 2017, 12:42:54 AM »
Huh  :-//
I thought the Batteriser gave a constant 1.5V out regardless of input voltage?

none of mine are fixed, they all exhibit the same variable output behaviour

Are you sure you're seeing a true voltage, that the lower voltage isn't a measurement error because of output ripple?
 

Offline HKJ

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #504 on: January 12, 2017, 12:49:41 AM »
Are you sure you're seeing a true voltage, that the lower voltage isn't a measurement error because of output ripple?
As I wrote earlier: It is more than just a boost converter.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #505 on: January 12, 2017, 01:20:55 AM »
As I wrote earlier: It is more than just a boost converter.

Yes, I just wanted to be sure there's no measurement error.

I don't see why the output would be a curve, that makes no sense in a boost circuit.  :-//





« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 01:22:46 AM by Fungus »
 

Offline Zbig

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #506 on: January 12, 2017, 01:27:01 AM »
As I wrote earlier: It is more than just a boost converter.

Yes, I just wanted to be sure there's no measurement error.

I don't see why the output would be a curve, that makes no sense in a boost circuit.  :-//

It seems they've made some attempt to address the battery gauge issues after all.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #507 on: January 12, 2017, 02:53:14 AM »
Are you sure you're seeing a true voltage, that the lower voltage isn't a measurement error because of output ripple?
As I wrote earlier: It is more than just a boost converter.

I'd think rather less than just a boost converter. A normal boost converter would have a voltage reference - this just seems to use the battery as a voltage reference i.e. it's just an amplifier, there's no regulation going on at all.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline JiggyNinja

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #508 on: January 12, 2017, 04:01:37 AM »
Are you sure you're seeing a true voltage, that the lower voltage isn't a measurement error because of output ripple?
As I wrote earlier: It is more than just a boost converter.

I'd think rather less than just a boost converter. A normal boost converter would have a voltage reference - this just seems to use the battery as a voltage reference i.e. it's just an amplifier, there's no regulation going on at all.
With the exception of the very top end of the range, to output voltage is higher than the input voltage. Whatever anyone else can say of it, it is a boost converter. Just because it uses a different form of feedback than is typical does not make it any more or less than other converters, just different.

Given that the input/output voltage relationships are almost perfectly identical over the range of loads tested, I think it's a given that there's some kind of feedback there. I'm just not sure if they decay is designed or an accidental part of some other feature (like the PFM operation).
 

Offline HKJ

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #509 on: January 12, 2017, 04:57:54 AM »
Just because it uses a different form of feedback than is typical does not make it any more or less than other converters, just different.

Ok, one test.
The output voltage looks like it is optimized for the job, not like a standard boost converter. If Rob's theory that a lot of devices stops working below 1.3V was correct, it would be useful, but as we all know this is not the case and the usefulness of it is very doubtful in most devices.

 
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Offline cowana

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #510 on: January 12, 2017, 05:29:14 AM »
Ok, one test.

Wow, that's a huge amount of data conveyed really clearly by that graph - nice logging! It does really look like an interesting device (although a million miles from extending battery life by 8 times...)
 

Offline jippie

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #511 on: January 12, 2017, 06:22:03 AM »
Just because it uses a different form of feedback than is typical does not make it any more or less than other converters, just different.

Ok, one test.
The output voltage looks like it is optimized for the job, not like a standard boost converter. If Rob's theory that a lot of devices stops working below 1.3V was correct, it would be useful, but as we all know this is not the case and the usefulness of it is very doubtful in most devices.



I'm curious about how the switcher frequency / duty cycle changes over the input range. Might be possible to simpy pick that up with a coil near the inductor.
 

Offline HKJ

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #512 on: January 12, 2017, 07:33:44 AM »
I'm curious about how the switcher frequency / duty cycle changes over the input range. Might be possible to simpy pick that up with a coil near the inductor.

I will not say much about it now, but it looks like it is around 2.5MHz
 

Online FrankBuss

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #513 on: January 12, 2017, 08:14:04 AM »
Frank, can you confirm if your AAA batterisers are a fixed output voltage or does the output voltage change depending on input?

This is the data:

http://www.frank-buss.de/batteroo/batteroo.csv

I don't have them anymore, but when I measured it, it was the same behaviour, nearly no voltage change when load changed, and a similar curve as you measured, just a bit higher. For 100 mA:


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Offline samgab

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #514 on: January 12, 2017, 09:01:22 AM »
I'd say that is a design decision to have the boosted discharge curve like that, to try to enable the battery gauge function? At least, they could swing it that way... Perhaps it also keeps the efficiency higher by reducing the amount of boost and current drawn from the cell as its input voltage decreases, compared to trying to keep the voltage fixed at exactly 1.5V as the source cell voltage decreases.  ESR would ensure the cell would die even quicker if they kept the voltage at 1.5V, thus exponentially increasing the current drawn from the cell as the voltage decreased. It seems like a pretty good design, it's just a shame there was so much dishonesty, lack of real info, false claims, and marketing BS which went along with it. And of course it's trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist (and failing).
 

Offline amyk

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #515 on: January 12, 2017, 12:36:44 PM »
Are you sure you're seeing a true voltage, that the lower voltage isn't a measurement error because of output ripple?
As I wrote earlier: It is more than just a boost converter.

I'd think rather less than just a boost converter. A normal boost converter would have a voltage reference - this just seems to use the battery as a voltage reference i.e. it's just an amplifier, there's no regulation going on at all.
I was going to say that --- instead of a constant Vref it just appears to be some ratio of the input. I don't think I remember any instances but has anyone else ever supplied a dumb boost converter IC with somewhat less than its specified minimum voltage and seen the line regulation? I suspect this might be a similar story.
 

Offline Wytnucls

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #516 on: January 12, 2017, 06:02:41 PM »
Usually, Vout is constant, set by an external voltage divider and an internal voltage ref (~1.25V), down to a Vin min of 0.5V.
What happens as Vin reduces, is that the efficiency decreases dramatically, especially with high loads, until a sharp shutdown at Vin 0.5V.
It looks like their IC has done away with the external divider, instead being optimized for a sliding Vout to reduce loss of efficiency.

 

Offline dexters_lab

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #517 on: January 12, 2017, 06:03:27 PM »
Frank, can you confirm if your AAA batterisers are a fixed output voltage or does the output voltage change depending on input?

This is the data:

http://www.frank-buss.de/batteroo/batteroo.csv

I don't have them anymore, but when I measured it, it was the same behaviour, nearly no voltage change when load changed, and a similar curve as you measured, just a bit higher. For 100 mA:



thanks Frank, i thought i was going mad there for a bit with everyone (including) Dave questioning it!
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Offline amyk

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #518 on: January 12, 2017, 10:53:01 PM »
Those graphs with the X-axis reversed look somewhat uncomfortable. :-// They're more like the typical output voltage vs. current graph.
 

Offline JiggyNinja

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #519 on: January 13, 2017, 12:35:23 AM »
Usually, Vout is constant, set by an external voltage divider and an internal voltage ref (~1.25V), down to a Vin min of 0.5V.
What happens as Vin reduces, is that the efficiency decreases dramatically, especially with high loads, until a sharp shutdown at Vin 0.5V.
It looks like their IC has done away with the external divider, instead being optimized for a sliding Vout to reduce loss of efficiency.
There are lots of chips that use an internal feedback network to give a fixed output voltage. And once you have an internal network, it's not really crazy to think that you could design one with this input/output characteristic.

That's not enough to conclude that is is designed though. Batteroo have slung so much bullshit that it's not worth bothering about.
thanks Frank, i thought i was going mad there for a bit with everyone (including) Dave questioning it!
I highly doubt Dave was questioning your result. I read it as sarcastic.
 

Offline drussell

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #520 on: January 13, 2017, 03:50:13 AM »
Giving a output voltage that scales somewhat with input voltage isn't exactly fancy technology.  You basically just add one resistor to your feedback divider string that goes to the input voltage to get part of your net feedback value from there.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #521 on: January 13, 2017, 06:15:38 AM »
Giving a output voltage that scales somewhat with input voltage isn't exactly fancy technology.  You basically just add one resistor to your feedback divider string that goes to the input voltage to get part of your net feedback value from there.

Yep.

I'm suspicious that some people here are putting this down to design. I suspect it's just dumb luck - replacing a voltage reference with a resistor divider made the chip cheaper.

Has anybody investigated the origins of chip yet? I'm also skeptical that Batteroo designed it. They know know from the beginning their 8x claims are bullshit so why waste time/effort/money making a new chip when there's dozens of Chinese manufacturers making suitable devices? I can go on eBay right now and buy a 35 cent booster module that produces 5V output from a single AA, right down to 0.7V input (measured by me). Batteroo's 1.5V output is easy compared to that. :popcorn:

(no, they won't do much more than light up a single LED with 0.7V input...to be really useful you need 3xAA source)
 

Offline HKJ

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #522 on: January 13, 2017, 06:41:56 AM »
I'm suspicious that some people here are putting this down to design. I suspect it's just dumb luck - replacing a voltage reference with a resistor divider made the chip cheaper.

It might be dumb luck or on design, the voltages matches fairly well with the purpose that makes it likely the chip is designed for it.
It might be a design from scratch or a few design changes to an existing design.
 

Offline Mr.B

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #523 on: January 13, 2017, 06:57:20 AM »
Has anybody investigated the origins of chip yet?

Has anybody heard from Zeptobars?
I thought I read somewhere here that he had been sent some by the same forum member who sent them to Frank.
Time is the overseer of all things.
 

Offline dexters_lab

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Re: Batteroo testing
« Reply #524 on: January 13, 2017, 07:06:38 AM »
wasn't someone going to be decapping the IC?

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