Author Topic: BLDC Motor Controller, Design, Waveforms, Thermal Tests  (Read 29589 times)

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Offline Glenn0010Topic starter

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Re: BLDC Motor Controller, Design + Waveforms
« Reply #75 on: March 09, 2018, 06:41:01 am »
Well that is certainly simpler! That the hardest test you can put on it definitely. However definitely have to have a very good current control loop at locked rotor.

How did you do your current control? Cycle by cycle or did you use a fixed control loop frequency? I was going to implement a current control loop of around 1.5kHz in a timer interrupt of the highest priority, so that the sampling period is always fixed.

PS I really appreciate all your advice! Thanks!
 

Offline nuno

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Re: BLDC Motor Controller, Design + Waveforms
« Reply #76 on: March 09, 2018, 10:13:29 am »
Cycle by cycle, I think you have to do it cycle by cycle to protect the power switches. There are a few microcontrollers these days that even have some hardware specifically for that. It's a simple mechanism; start monitoring the current at the PWM cycle start, and force the cycle to end if the current reaches the maximum value you want to allow. Next cycle it all repeats. That's it.
 

Offline Glenn0010Topic starter

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Re: BLDC Motor Controller, Design + Waveforms
« Reply #77 on: March 09, 2018, 04:37:13 pm »
I understand the concept you are talking about but I am still not sure about some things.

I will use my MCU ADC in burst mode and whenever I reach my maximum DC link 20A I will stop the PWM.

I only have one current sensor on the DC link and from the explanation below, I can just use that for my current sensing since I like to keep things a simple as possible. Also I only have 4 ADCs on my MCU. Using 1 for a throttle input, 1 for the DC link and I'd like to add temperature sensing. Hence I cannot really sense 3 phases and have temperature sensing so I think DC link is the way to go

https://e2e.ti.com/blogs_/b/motordrivecontrol/archive/2016/01/21/protect-your-bldc-motor-drive-with-cycle-by-cycle-current-limit-control-part-1

Hence I would put the DC link sensor after the DC link capacitor and I think that would be fine. Other wise I would could add 2 current sensors on 2 of the phases that would also suffice.

I have the ACS733 Current sensors. They have an over current setting pin and a fault pin. I could connect the fault pin to and external interrupt and hey presto we got a winner for my maximum current limit. For my current set-point, I can just burst scan my adc and use that! as you described previously!

It's quite simple and faster the PID

See any potential flaws in my reasoning?


 

Offline nuno

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Re: BLDC Motor Controller, Design + Waveforms
« Reply #78 on: March 09, 2018, 05:26:32 pm »
The simplest thing you can do is to use a voltage comparator to trigger an "overcurrent" interrupt where you end the PWM cycle (some microcontrollers, even 8 bits ones like some AVRs, have this connection in hw and stop the PWM for you). For this you should measure the phase (motor) current. Due to the DC link capacitors, if you only have a current sensor on the battery side, that sensor will not tell you the whole story.

How to do it exactly depends on how fast and resourceful your uC and hw is. I have done in controller (for a DC motor) exactly what you mention, I put the current sensor after the DC link capacitors. So I can see the phase current, but only during the ON part of the PWM cycle - this means the ADC reading and PWM must be synchronized. I trigger the start of an ADC reading at the start of the ON cycle to measure the current (your PWM frequency should be such that the motor phase current ripple is small), but I have the voltage comparator to end the PWM cycle earlier if necessary.
In my case the uC was very small (8 bit, 2KB flash) so didn't have the resources or speed to do it all with an ADC input, and I still had other things to measure with the (single) ADC. I take ADC measurements round robin (motor current, DC link voltage and 2 temperatures), but the 1st one of the round is always the motor current, so I can synch it with the PWM (I was only able to take a current measurement every X PWM cycles but that's ok because it's still many times a second, current doesn't change that much and I have the voltage comparator mechanism to limit the current cycle-by-cycle).

Is the ACS733 fault pin current configurable? Because you'll want to set your own (motor phase) current limit. Your uC probably has a voltage comparator you can use for current limiting.

But, however, if you're controlling a BLDC, you'll need to measure current at least in 2 phases if you want to do something better than "3 phase commutation", such as FOC and the like.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 05:31:14 pm by nuno »
 

Offline Glenn0010Topic starter

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Re: BLDC Motor Controller, Design + Waveforms
« Reply #79 on: March 09, 2018, 06:19:22 pm »
Unfortunately my Uc does not have this functionality.

I understand that to implement  FOC I need multiple current sensors. I am still undecided  on whether to go with one current sensor after DC link cap or on 2 phases. I think one is the way to go since it will be easier on  the MCU and since my minimum sampling rate possible is 2.44us (pretty slow I think, but it will suffice I think)

The ACS has a configurable over current setting however it only ranges from 0.5 to 2 times the maximum current it can sense (40A) so I cannot use the fault pin at currents any lower than 20A so I will use that as my hard current limit with external interrupts. I could use other current sensing ICs that can do this however I would lose my Isolation.

I think my best option right now is to use one ACS on DC link. Use burst mode sampling for my set point and its fault pin for my hard limit.

Regarding synchronization, I can continuously be burst sampling my ADC. Upon each completion of a sample, the MCU will give me an interrupt and I can check whether it is over my threshold. Hence I would not have the problem of synchronization.  Correct?

Hence I'd have the following interrupt  with the highest having the highest priority.

Priority  0 - Fault Pin (External Interrupt)
Priority 1 - ADC sample complete (Current)
Priority 2 - Capture inputs for rotor position. (Hall sensors)

 

Offline nuno

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Re: BLDC Motor Controller, Design + Waveforms
« Reply #80 on: March 10, 2018, 03:17:45 pm »
If you put the current sensor before the DC link caps, you will not know for sure the phase current (can be estimated, knowing the PWM duty cycle), and you will not know the current "now", because there will be a delay for the controller input current ("battery current") to "catch up" with the phase current - will be looking at the average current. Some cheap Chinese ebike controllers do this. Note that the phase current can be 4, 5 or more times the battery current. So, if you only have a battery current sensor, there's not much rush setting a current limit, because the reading will not be "exact" nor "actual" anyway... so you can probably just go with the ADC readings, but since the implementation cost of the Fault pin is low so you might as well try.
 

Offline Glenn0010Topic starter

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Re: BLDC Motor Controller, Design + Waveforms
« Reply #81 on: March 10, 2018, 03:39:08 pm »
I plan on putting the current sensor after the DC link as seen below



In this configuration the current I will be sensing should be the  "phase" current. And hence I know the current exactly all the time by scanning continuously the ADC and avoiding the synchronization issues

 

Offline nuno

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Re: BLDC Motor Controller, Design + Waveforms
« Reply #82 on: March 10, 2018, 05:02:40 pm »
No, you must synchronize the ADC readings. The current at that point will only flow during the ON part of the PWM cycle.
 
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Offline AlkaM

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Re: BLDC Motor Controller, Design + Waveforms
« Reply #83 on: March 12, 2018, 04:29:55 pm »
Hi, interesting thread!

I am just absorbing all I can right now as I have been diving into writing firmware for bldc controllers. Anyway I have a bunch of hardware designs for speed controllers here in case its of any use. They have all been field tested ( literally.. each one goes in a rc car or quad and goes out to a field to drive around). Every post has gerber files, schematics and diptrace source files.

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=696658
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 04:53:19 pm by AlkaM »
 

Offline Glenn0010Topic starter

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Re: BLDC Motor Controller, Design + Waveforms
« Reply #84 on: March 12, 2018, 07:11:17 pm »
Wow they look super interesting! Especially the SMT32F0 one!


While I was waiting for the gate drivers, I was busy deigning my final prototype (for now) the P3. Quite happy with the overall design, especially with how close I got the drivers to the fet inputs (using an embedded full bridge MTI85W100GC) shown on the bottom of the board. Included better current snesing as explained above with nuno (thanks!) and temperature sensing. The NTC temperature sensor will be connected to a 3mm aluminium plate which will be on the ceramic heat plate of the bridge module, which should give me aplenty of heat sinking.

Also fixed some design flaws I had with the Buck converter, optimized some component values, and as nuno suggested, to reudce the inductance I replaced my big dc link through hole caps with SMT ones which I luckily could get to ft in the limited space hence keeping the same incapacitate as my big through hole ones, which should give me better results.





Today I soldered my fresh gate drives and I am planning to test again tomorrow. Hopefully I should have ironed out all my issues with the P2 barring any major oversights. I will also take some reading across MOSFET Vgs Vds. As you guys have suggested, I plan on soldering the ground lead to the fet and using that to reduce the scope inductance to produce the true results. Are there any more places which you guys should suggest I probe?
 

Offline Glenn0010Topic starter

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Re: BLDC Motor Controller, Design + Waveforms
« Reply #85 on: March 15, 2018, 10:03:09 am »
Hi all so it took a while but I took some waveforms of my FETs.

So here is my setup as you guys recommended , I used a ground spring on my probe as seen below.





Below are is my Vgs on the high side FET







There are the Vds on the high side FET







Granted I took these waveforms running the motor at no load however having no overshoot/ringing at all is encouraging. Once I have my rig set up I will retake the waveforms under load.

Also yesterday as I was soldering the ground probe to the fet, I used solder wick and I didn't see that a strand came off and shorted out my source to drain. I switched on the circuit and poof the fet literally caught fire. I replaced it and everything worked fine. So that gives me a lot of confidence in my gate drivers, that they survived that since its the worse possible condition to operate under. I also probed on the gate driver pins over the bootstrap pins and my the voltage stay pretty much at 15V constant since I have a large 22uF elec cap in parallel with the ceramic ensuring, that I eliminate the problems of under voltage at those pins!

Also I tested the controller running constantly for 30 minutes at full speed an it worked fine so I seem to have resolved the issues with the Buck Converter

Any thoughts?



« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 10:11:46 am by Glenn0010 »
 

Offline nuno

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Re: BLDC Motor Controller, Design + Waveforms
« Reply #86 on: March 15, 2018, 03:45:15 pm »
So far looks good to me. You can do the same for the low side, for reference.
That's it, that's the right measurement setup.

Now let's see it under load ;)
v = L di / dt

Start with smaller currents and/or supply voltage (smaller current is easier, as it's just about adjusting the 1st pulse ON time on the double pulse test). Don't do the test repeatedly, do only one double pulse, on demand.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 03:50:17 pm by nuno »
 

Offline Glenn0010Topic starter

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Re: BLDC Motor Controller, Design + Waveforms
« Reply #87 on: March 16, 2018, 07:30:27 am »
Yup I will do it under test to see how good it really is :D

Just u question about the cycle by cycle current limiting. You said you need to sync it to the PWM on time. However, why can't you just scan the DC link current continuously (after the DC link capacitor therefore it is essentially the phase current.)

Wouldn't the highest point of the current be when the PWM is on and when it is off, the current would decay? Or is there a point I am missing?

I am not speaking about the double pulse test, but about current limiting in general
 

Offline nuno

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Re: BLDC Motor Controller, Design + Waveforms
« Reply #88 on: March 16, 2018, 06:06:37 pm »
After the DC link capacitors, the current is zero when the FETs turn off and the phase current when the FETs turn ON (trapezoidal). The decay you're thinking is probably the one in the motor.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 06:41:09 pm by nuno »
 
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Offline Glenn0010Topic starter

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Re: BLDC Motor Controller, Design + Waveforms
« Reply #89 on: March 16, 2018, 08:10:01 pm »
Woops I misspoke you are right about the decay. However just for regular current sensing I can just scan continuously the ADC and the highest point on my current sensor (R2 of your image) will be when the MOSFET is on since when the FET is off, the current will fall to 0 and that make my code a lot simpler.

I say this because my MCU is quite old and while it syncs to other timers, it cannot sync to my PWM timer. So while I will not be  measuring the actual motor current in the FET off period, this will not be important to me since the max current experinced will be when the FET is on.

The MCU I am using is quite simple to program, however it doesn't have a lot of features. I plan to switch to a new MCU after these iterations of my project. I am currently using the LPC2119, however I also own an STM32F4vg07 so I could use that in the future. However I will look up the best MCUs for driving motors since they can have some added features which will be very useful.

So to summarize according to my methodology above I can continouasly scan R2 correct?   
 

Offline anvoice

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Re: BLDC Motor Controller, Design + Waveforms
« Reply #90 on: March 17, 2018, 02:04:11 am »
Nice thread! The more I read, the clearer it becomes I chose the wrong major (chem), now trying to catch up all I can in electronics. My own design is for a pretty high-torque BLDC servo, I'm sure I'll find many interesting tips in this thread.
 
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Offline GnomeTek

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Re: BLDC Motor Controller, Design + Waveforms
« Reply #91 on: March 18, 2018, 05:20:02 am »
I'll throw my $0.02. Granted that $0.02 has been hard earned from many hours of fires and "maybe if i stare at this scope capture long enough something will happen".

I'll also say that I get pretty excited about motor controller work and I skimmed your thread to get to the point of being able to reply. I know that sounds horrible and ill informed but I hope it provides some ideas. So here we go.

The idea of using a snubber system to quell output ripple is sound in theory. In practice with the types of power levels involved with motor control, it's difficult to really see through to fruition. If output filter must be used, try getting some blocking ferrites inline or around your motor output phases. These are very effective. Otherwise look to the other side of the FET. How is it being controlled? It may be doing exactly what your telling it to, and the ripple is a byproduct of the switch event - which of course it is.

Here's how I approach smooth switching for motor control applications.
  • What does your FET driver power source look like under loaded switching conditions? Is there a lot of ripple and hash back up the 12v (or 15v) power line? If there is do your best to isolate that power line with possibly a ferrite at the output(meaning physically close) of your PSU, followed by SMT decoupling caps at each gate driver. You need clean power to switch cleanly. But if your switch event is out of control, no practical decoupling will calm 12v/15v line down.
  • Lets look at the FET switching event! I see you got a scope with a short ground clip and took a quick grab of the Turn On/Turn Off events. But man, that's a 30,000ft view! Get down in there and take a peak through the Miller time (that flat spot during the turn on). What does that look like? Even from the 30,000ft view i can see it's a roller coaster. So what can we do about it? I think you're half way there with gate resistance and a gate snubber cap, but that snubber cap can just be a source of energy for a resonant system. lets calm it down with a 1-2 ohm resistor between the Cap and the Gate of the FET. Ultimately this is a T network with your ~10 Ohm Gate R on the left of the T, your Cap on the vertical of the T,
     and a Series Resistor on the right of the T. Keep this all as physically close to the FET gate as reasonable, specially the cap and the series resistance. The 10ohm Gate resistor is not a bad place to start. You could do some modeling w/ your FET's gate capacitance, PCB parasitics, and driver system. But laying it out and hitting it with a scope is more fun ;)
  • You already found the caveat of Gate driver's and their switched node negative voltage transient susceptibility. So you're really digging into datasheets. A 1-5 ohm resistor in series with your switched node as close as possible to your Gate Driver should quell the transient here. With good layout, and reasonable motor currents this shouldn't be much of an issue. But a 1 ohm doesn't harm you much and does a lot to guard the Gate Driver from a fault or failure. It does slows down your high side boost cap's recharge time a bit, and add's in series with your gate resistance really effecting your turn off more then turn on event.

Now you have the elements in place to really tackle the FET switching event.
Ensure your dead times are adequate between devices before examining FET switching behavior. -If complimentary PWM is in play.

Next go through and bring the system up to a low load, not no load, but low load. Things just bounce around under no load and the FET Gate transients don't quite show as well. Get something like 1/10-1/5 your expected load going on the motor and use that snub scope probe to closely look at your FET Vgs during turn on and turn off. Get down in there and get a good clear view of your Miller time - When the FET Vgs rises, then goes almost horizontal for a bit then continues to rise in a typical RC charge fashion. That Miller time should be smooth and controlled. You shouldn't see ripples and roller coasters here as they'll directly translate to your output.

With the gate snubber cap removed, bring your Gate Resistance up to slow down the FET switch event and try to calm out the big waves in the Miller event under some mild load. Ensure you don't extend the transient time to overlap with your deadtime and cause shoot troughs (again, complimentary PWM only). Really watch your FET temps. Once those start to increase rapidly, bring your Gate Resistance back and start adding gate snubber capacitance to your T network in low nF region to start. I've found this capacitance to be incredible effective to calm the switch event. Ensure your measuring Vgs on the FET legs itself. Experiment and walk around your snubber capacitance value and gate resistance value. Keep the series resistance low at 1-2 ohms to keep the snubber capacitance in the game, you don't want to raise that resistance and decrease the effectiveness of the added capacitance, you just want to slow down that fast MLCC.

Start to walk your load up and watch how the Miller event changes. Higher FET current, longer Miller event and generally less stable. Adjust as needed, keeping things fast for thermal performance, but smooth for noise.

Get Your high and low side Miller events as close as possible. This will very likely require different value Gate Resistors. You'll likely be able to keep the capacitance the same, and keep your series resistance the same.

Now take a look at your Gate Driver voltage supply rail, has that calmed down? I bet it has.
How about your Vds switch event? Little smoother now? I've found AC coupling to work a treat here to really get a good view of the noise during that transient.
Looking down to your phase outputs if there's still noise being emitted, throw some ferrites around it and call it a day! (hopefully! ;)

I hope that helps, and isn't muddying the water with other options offered in this thread. Like i said i didn't read everything but i think i got a decent grasp of what was done. And let me know if some of that isn't clear. I can draw up a simple schematic or the like later if needed.

Oh! and keep the bulk electrolytics! If you run only MLCC for your main bus capacitance it'll be way to fast and cause all sorts of nasty voltage transients. Place some resistance in series with the MLCC bank if you must go this route. Now, "some" MLCC in parallel with the bulk electrolytic is a good move, just watch your Vds transient as you add more. And of course power planes and de-loop every nook and cranny you can!
 

Offline Glenn0010Topic starter

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Re: BLDC Motor Controller, Design + Waveforms
« Reply #92 on: March 18, 2018, 05:24:10 pm »
Hi,

Thanks for all the info! My the Miller time I guess you mean what's called the Plateau voltage on most Application notes?

Regarding the negative transients on the gate driver I measured it between Vboot and Vs and I am not getting any at all. You can see these shots on the first page of this thread (the ringing there is because I did not use a ground clip). This is because I have added a 'large' elec cap (22uf iirc) in parallel with my cermic bootstrap cap (0.470uF iirc) and this give me no ripple at all I also have no ripple on my 15V supply.

Here id you 30FT view of the switching event (Vgs)  ;)



There is a bit of a dip in the turn on which I don't know where it comes form.

I was running at a low load (i.e. motor, but motor is not load around 1A DC link current).

Regarding the T network I decided to forgo the gate snubber cap to reduce component count, size and length of traces, and I doesn't look to bad also the cap would slow down my switching correct as I dont want any shoot-through?

I also do not have a resistor with the positive of the bootstrap cap it just feeds in directly. Because of the elec boot strap cap in parallel I do not get any (almost any) reduction in my voltage.

I set the deadtime with the gate driver around 333ns using an external resistor. 

I will run tests under load when I finish building my rig :D

With regards to the Elec Caps, on my new board, I have found some sexy SMT ones with the same capacitance which I just managed to squeeze on the board and that eliminates the 'LEAD inductance" of the capacitor legs since I left them long to bend them over.

Regarding use of the ground clip, I have soldered it to the fets and I just hold the probe to the gate, do you know of any tricks to avoid shorting pins with the probe if you hand slips for example, I used some tape but I'd still like to make things safer so I don't blow stuff up while measuring.

Thanks for all the detailed info you seem to have ALOT of experience. I really love power electronics an motor drives (minus the blowing up and catching fire of stuff as you said)
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 05:25:52 pm by Glenn0010 »
 

Offline GnomeTek

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Re: BLDC Motor Controller, Design + Waveforms
« Reply #93 on: March 20, 2018, 03:44:16 pm »
Yes the area to the left of your Vgs curve is the Miller event/time/plateau. This is the linear region of the FET. Any modulation here is amplified to the output. Power Switch FETs do not like to hang out during this time, they're made to blast through it and get into the enhancement region and have a low Rds. Wiggles are bad here IMO. One could make the argument that a fast turn on with a wavy Vgs through the Miller event is okay. It essentially only adds noise, your thermal performance is better the faster u switch. But that noise will get you so i recommend a nice controlled switch.

Just google "FET miller event" and take a look at those top app notes and other info. Lots of good things there.

Get some load under the controller to really see what's happening. Even making a Wye connected Power Resistor arrangement and telling your controller to blindly commutate @ some predefined duty cycle is a great way to get safe current flowing through the system. Bypass whatever phase angle/commutation state system your using has have it tick through all the phases as if it was running the motor at 60RPM or some such number. Or if you're running off hall effect sensors. leave that portion of the motor hooked up and connect power Wye to the phase output and simply turn the motor by hand - with a limit on duty cycle, and appropriate resistance values of course!
 

Offline Glenn0010Topic starter

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Re: BLDC Motor Controller, Design + Waveforms
« Reply #94 on: March 23, 2018, 06:12:00 pm »
I am currently busy doing some write up on my thesis till I get my testing rig done.

In the mean time do any of you know of any good books, relevant to high power PCB design (i.e. inverters and similar items) and also brushless motor controllers with regards to more complex driving algorithms such as FOC and the like.

I'd like to read up a bit at the end of each day to lean more a go into more deatail. I have looked up a bit online but before spending my money I'd like to make sure it is relevant.

Thanks
 

Offline Glenn0010Topic starter

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Re: BLDC Motor Controller, Design + Waveforms
« Reply #95 on: May 01, 2018, 07:28:27 am »
So after a long while of trying to get my rig sorted out, it is finally ready and here are my results.

Here is my Testing Rig. I decided to go with this type of rig since I can control the load applied to my motor quite easily. So the motor on the left is my BLDC motor which I am driving (Prime Mover). It is couple via motor couplings with a rubber piece in between to take away any misalignment and vibrations. The load on the right is a modified car alternator. I have shorted out the start wingdings together. To control the amount the motor is loaded, I apply a DC current to the rotor through the brushes. At around 2A rotor current (to the alternator) the BLDC motor is loaded at 20A phase current.

I think it is a pretty good setup for varying the motor load. Getting the motors coupled together was the biggest issue.



So here are my results. This is the Vds voltage at 20A phase current. This is basically at my maximum set specifications and I was pleasantly surprised. There is some voltage overshoot but I think it is within reason. What do you guys think?



Here is the phase current of one of the phases. This is just under full load



What do you guys think of the performance? I think it is within reason.

Soon I will get the thermal camera and will run thermal tests but even at 20A for a few seconds the FETs did not even get warm but I will run the test for a couple of minutes to ensure steady state is reached.
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: BLDC Motor Controller, Design + Waveforms
« Reply #96 on: May 01, 2018, 08:46:08 am »
Your 28% overshoot looks quite reasonable to me. (Assume it's a bit more due to scope BW limitations.) Unless you are aiming for absolutely minimized EMI, this is probably as good as it gets. RC snubbers could make it even better, but with efficiency cost. (Sometimes it also happens that your layout is already so tight, that there is simply no room for RC snubbers without making the layout worse again, in which case their effectiveness is less than expected.)

Many "rule-of-thumbers" tend to overrate the Vds(max) by 50% from the maximum DC link voltage. If you do this, you seem to be well covered, especially if the MOSFETs are avalanche rated so that tiny little peaks over the Vds(max) won't instantly kill them.

If I read the timescale of your trace right, the oscillation happens at around 60-70MHz and dissipates in two cycles. Frequency this high suggests fairly tight loop.
 

Offline Glenn0010Topic starter

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Re: BLDC Motor Controller, Design + Waveforms
« Reply #97 on: May 01, 2018, 11:50:41 am »
Yes I think it is pretty satisfactory especially considering my first board layout.

While EMI are not major considerations for me, does the overshoot cause significant EMI and if so how exactly? (Still trying to get a decent grasp of the EMI concept, issues etc.)

You were pretty close on the reading I just measured the frequency and it is 58.8 Mhz oscillating frequency.
 

Offline nuno

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Re: BLDC Motor Controller, Design + Waveforms
« Reply #98 on: May 01, 2018, 01:21:16 pm »
The overshoot also seems pretty reasonable to me, and the oscillation is dampen quickly. I think the military/aerospace have tighter requirements, but that's not your case.
I can't comment on the EMI, but mind that it's the current changes that emit.
 

Offline Glenn0010Topic starter

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Re: BLDC Motor Controller, Design + Waveforms
« Reply #99 on: May 02, 2018, 04:52:53 pm »
Thanks for the feedback. I'll update you guys with some shots of he thermal performance when I acquire the thermal camera
 


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