Can you route better than an autorouter?

[cyberfish]

I kept hearing about FreeRouting.net (a free online autorouter) so I decided to give it a try with a current design I have already manually routed, just to compare.

It was very easy. Learned to use the system in about 10 minutes.

Took about 1 minute to route (brushless DC driver, pretty simple 2 layer design - 32-pin microcontroller, a few MOSFETs, MOSFET driver chips, and passive filters).

Then I came to the shocking realization that I think it did a better job than me .

Routes were a lot cleaner, only 11 vias vs 18 vias, and very few tracks on bottom layer (good ground plane). If I haven't sent my board to fab already, I would probably use this over my manual routing.

I wouldn't say I'm very experienced, but I have manually routed about 5 moderately complex 2-layer boards (a few high pin count chips).

I didn't look into autorouters much because I wanted to learn manual routing (which is a VERY good idea, like Dave said), and also because the only autorouter I tried (Kicad's builtin) was quite bad (put simply). FreeRouting.net router is very good, though.

I think from now on I will just route the high current/frequency traces manually, and let autorouter do the rest.

So, can you route better than an autorouter?

[TopherTheME]

Yes, I like to think so. Can you post pics of PCB you traced and the one the autorouter did?

[Simon]

what sort of service is this ? I must admit I hate "online" stuff, I have a laptop now for a reason so don't tell me about portability and having access where ever I am bla bla

[cyberfish]

Here's a comparison. For the autorouted board, I had to route ground net manually for some reason (probably because I put in a ground polygon before feeding it to the autorouter), but that's mostly just via to ground plane. Otherwise, the router routed the whole board.

[cyberfish]

what sort of service is this ? I must admit I hate "online" stuff, I have a laptop now for a reason so don't tell me about portability and having access where ever I am bla bla

Basically export your board from your pcb program into something called DSN format, then import it into the autorouter. It's kind of not really online service. It's just a webstart java program. I think you can download it to run on your own computer, too. Either way the routing is done on your CPU. Then export from autorouter, and import into your program.

[Simon]

hm so you need a program that outputs DSN formats, not something the simpler pcb programs like expresspcb that I use probably do (I seriously tried to do a schematic with kicad yesterday and got so fed up of it's un-obvious and unnecessary complexities that I gave up, really was it designed by apes ?)

[cyberfish]

I believe Kicad, PCB (from gEDA), and Eagle all can export to DSN. Sounds like a pretty standard format to me.

I thought Kicad is pretty straight forward. At least quite a bit easier than gEDA (though I prefer gEDA's layout program).

[GeoffS]

Basically export your board from your pcb program into something called DSN format, then import it into the autorouter. It's kind of not really online service. It's just a webstart java program. I think you can download it to run on your own computer, too. Either way the routing is done on your CPU. Then export from autorouter, and import into your program.

There doesn't seem to be any provision to download the program, just to run it under Java on your PC.
They mention that the web based version is free - if there's a version for sale, they don't mention it.

[slburris]

I've used freerouting.net for a few designs and it's way better than the Eagle
autorouter. 

My understanding is that it's a gridless push and shove autorouter.  Eagle
routes on a grid, and if you have chips in both metric and imperial units,
Eagle struggles unless you set a really fine routing grid.  Gridless autorouters
don't have any problems with that.

Oddly, their website seems to be broken now.  I'd be very sad if they went down.
I should have saved a copy of their Java app.

Scott

[cyberfish]

Site is back up.

I downloaded the jnlp file just in case, but I think the real file is still downloaded from their server. The jnlp file is just a link.

But if you open it up in a text editor, you can figure out a link to the real file -
http://www.freerouting.net/java/router.jar

And from the command line -
java -jar -Xmx1024m router.jar -webstart
runs the program.

Works for me.

The jnlp file is not needed. Just router.jar and a shell script or batch file that runs the command above.

[djsb]

hm so you need a program that outputs DSN formats, not something the simpler pcb programs like expresspcb that I use probably do (I seriously tried to do a schematic with kicad yesterday and got so fed up of it's un-obvious and unnecessary complexities that I gave up, really was it designed by apes ?)

What in particular where are having problems with? I've used Kicad quite a bit and I can help you if you want me to. If you feel anything can be improved please let them know (I think they have a wish list on launchpad).

David.

[tyblu]

The day I trust an autorouter to do anything but single layer, side-by-side signal lines... well, let's just say it's not going to happen. I love the algorithms, though, and imagine them being used for traffic control when we're all driving (non-polluting) flying vehicles.

[cyberfish]

You don't have to trust it. You can and should inspect manually after autorouting.

It's not like autorouting result goes directly to fab house.

[Simon]

hm so you need a program that outputs DSN formats, not something the simpler pcb programs like expresspcb that I use probably do (I seriously tried to do a schematic with kicad yesterday and got so fed up of it's un-obvious and unnecessary complexities that I gave up, really was it designed by apes ?)

What in particular where are having problems with? I've used Kicad quite a bit and I can help you if you want me to. If you feel anything can be improved please let them know (I think they have a wish list on launchpad).

David.

well trying to make my own part and then save it, I mean I made the part but was never able to load it into a library for use, the whole thing is just so unintuitive. ok I should read the manual but flipping hell it just a schematic layout program and not my first, so if I need to read a 100 page manual just to lay out a diagram something is not right

When I get time I'll start translating it to italian, maybe that will help spur development.

[cyberfish]

well trying to make my own part and then save it, I mean I made the part but was never able to load it into a library for use, the whole thing is just so unintuitive.

"Select working library" (button with 3 amplifiers icon), "save current library to disk" (button with a floppy icon). Exactly how difficult and unintuitive is that?

Are you sure the problem is Kicad and not between desk and the chair?

[timofonic]

Necroposting. Sorry...

Is this still valid? What about TopoR?

[sleemanj]

Necroposting. Sorry...

Is this still valid? What about TopoR?

You can download the last freerouting version before it's development was stopped here...

https://s3.amazonaws.com/miscjunkandstuff/FreeRouting/ABOUT-2014-05-03.txt

https://s3.amazonaws.com/miscjunkandstuff/FreeRouting/freerouting-net-Linux-binary-2014-05-03.tar.gz
https://s3.amazonaws.com/miscjunkandstuff/FreeRouting/freerouting-net-OSX-binary-2014-05-03.tar.gz
https://s3.amazonaws.com/miscjunkandstuff/FreeRouting/freerouting-net-Windows-binary-2014-05-03.zip

https://s3.amazonaws.com/miscjunkandstuff/FreeRouting/build-instructions.txt
https://s3.amazonaws.com/miscjunkandstuff/FreeRouting/freerouting-net-source-2014-05-03.tar.gz
https://s3.amazonaws.com/miscjunkandstuff/FreeRouting/FreeRouter-Example.tar.gz

I have never had any luck with topor, but freerouting gets regular use.

[Simon]

Free routing is simply the best but I find it hard to run with the fact that it's not up to date for Java and always has problems.

[donotdespisethesnake]

Free routing is simply the best but I find it hard to run with the fact that it's not up to date for Java and always has problems.

What problems are you having?

There are several github repos, eg. https://github.com/freerouting/freerouting. I did a few tweaks on my own version, although I don't really know Java. It did take some meddling to get it to build cleanly.

[Simon]

It just refuses to load. I probably need a later version as I'm getting Java errors even though it's the self contained one.

[Rerouter]

I get the same for windows 7, 64 bit, exe does nothing, and the .jar throws the error "Error: Invalid or corrupt jarfile...." with the file location at the

[dom0]

Just in case... you need to download the file RAW not save the HTML page. I.e.: https://github.com/freerouting/freerouting/raw/master/binaries/FreeRouting.jar / .exe

[donotdespisethesnake]

I've tried running Freerouter standalone (launched from DOS prompt), and launched from KiCad if you follow the instructions here http://amichalec.net/2015/10/kicad-upgrade/. Both methods work for me.

Freerouter will not load some DSN files anyway, and just exits, so it can give the impression it didn't load.

[Eng_hassan85]

I Like the Idea .. I was using the Oracd Autorouting , however I was doing some of them my self

[Rerouter]

thank you dom0, that time it worked, had a nightmarish breakout board, 40 pins in to 26 8 pin plugs out, now all i have to do is shove around and tweak the results,

Note i normally route stuff, but for low cost and crazy breakout boards, i'm willing to stoop to any form of automation,