Author Topic: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply  (Read 353159 times)

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Offline ee.jmlp

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #250 on: October 06, 2013, 10:09:50 pm »
Nobody talked about a 100 strand of foolish nolitz wire. AWG40 was just a starting point because is easy to find, better if you find a litz one.

Huh? You suggested using litz wire made out of AWG40 strands, and this was the configuration I was talking about.

According to the Dartmouth reference "Many manufacturers cannot provide litz wire using
strands finer than 48 or 50 AWG.". Even such thin strands (0.025 mm) will not be very effective at 10 MHz+ because you will need so many of them for any reasonable cross section and the proximity effect losses will be large.

So you didn't read the pdf I posted. Read it carefully because it has all the answers you need.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 10:11:30 pm by ee.jmlp »
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Offline megajocke

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #251 on: October 06, 2013, 10:34:40 pm »
So what configuration do you suggest?
 

Offline ee.jmlp

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #252 on: October 07, 2013, 09:10:08 am »
A copper pipe...

Let's stop spamming mamalala's work ;)
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Offline mamalalaTopic starter

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #253 on: October 10, 2013, 01:39:45 am »
Don't worry about spamming "my" work. First of all, i am not the original designer of the system used. Standing of the shoulders of others, as they say. Secondly, i very much welcome discussion of what improvements could be done to the little, simple circuit i made. And finally, since i am not an RF guy myself, i very much welcome any discussion about that stuff.

Personally? Yes, i am pretty sure that in (at least) this instance there is not much (if any) gain in using litz wire, compared to solid core wire. As said, any heatup that i could note was pretty much only in the cores themselves. This is most obvious with the transformer on the ferrite core. Simply using a bigger core got rid of most of the heat, while still using solid core wire. This is proof positive that the core itself has much more influence than the type of wire used.

Plus, most of the manufacturers of radios out there use solid core wire as well. Yea, some might say they are all wrong, but i highly doubt it. Theory is one thing, practice is another. Sure, you may get rid of a small amount of losses by using litz wire, but the cost of doing so is probably much higher than the cost of the actual losses. After all, companies are not charities. If they could make something that gives them an advantage over their competitiors, they will do it. But since rarely anyone uses litz wire in such applications, i have to assume that the cost/benefit ratio is heavily tilted towards simple solid core wire here.

But hey, that is just what i think. Build it using litz wire, and let's see how it compares. I'm always open to that kind of stuff. But you have to show me substantial data to change my mind. So, unless someone builds the circuit as is, plus another one using litz wire, and then compares them and finds substantial benefits for litz wire, i will stick to my preliminary conclusion that the type of wire simply does not matter that much, if at all.

Greetings,

Chris

Edit: To make it clear: I really mean same circuit. That is, same parts, same layout, everything the same, except for the inductors and transformer in the RF path. Then show what the actual differences are. Does it heat up half a second faster due to less losses? Does it consume a few miliamperes less current to achive the same output on the same tip cartridge? If so, what is the price difference between that litz wire and solid core? Solid core is bog standard and cheap. Litz wire, not so much. At least for RF applications. There is no gain in saving one buck in electricity during the lifetime of the thing, when using litz wire costs 2 bucks more... Heck, even if i save one buck and the litz wire costs me one buck extra, i have saved nothing at all.

Keep in mind that this project is meant to be built by others without resorting to too many exotic parts. The FET driver is already quite exotic, but still readily available. Some specific litz wire is (in my experience) much harder to come by, compared to regular magnet wire....
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 01:49:52 am by mamalala »
 

Offline AndersAnd

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #254 on: October 11, 2013, 05:35:14 pm »
while working on some magic-8-ball type of addition to the code (hey, i try to predict the actual tip....), i noticed some quite dramatic differencies between original Metcal cartridges and their Thermaltronics equivalnt. While i have only 3 types of equivalent Thermaltronic tips, the trend is quite visible!...
Hi mamalala and everyone else,

This is a great DIY-project which I have been following for a long time. :-+ I just haven't signed up until today.

I'm a great fan of the Metcal soldering system after having tested several high end systems at work before we decided to buy Metcal MX500 soldering stations for everyone to replace outdated Weller stations. Everyone agreed MX500 was by far the best system tested compared to Pace, Weller and a few other brands I can't recall. Only problem after some time was that a lot of Metcal tips died prematurely, so they couldn't heat up at all. This is however a big issue since the Metcal tips are quite expensive, but we did get all the dead tips replaced under warranty by our distributor. Not sure if Metcal has since fixed this issue, as I don't work there anymore and it was about 15 years ago.

Anyway enough about that, the reason for this post was I wanted to inform you guys that Thermaltronics is also sold rebranded as EasyBraid:
http://www.easybraidco.com/hand-soldering-c-3-l-en.html
http://www.thermaltronics.com/products.php

As you can see the EasyBraid rebranded soldering stations are still named 9000S, 5000S and 2000S series respectively, just like their Thermaltronics equivalents.

I found out about the rebranded Easy Braid systems while browsing the DigiKey website. DigiKey sell both Metcal and EasyBraid but not Thermaltronics.

EasyBraid at DigiKey: http://www.digikey.com/suppliers/us/easy-braid.page (you might have to disbale AdBlockers at DigiKey.com for this page to show up)

EasyBraid is also sold at Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_st?lo=tools&keywords=EasyBraid&rh=n%3A228013%2Ck%3AEasyBraid&sort=-price

And at eBay
From USA (by http://gokimco.com): http://stores.ebay.com/Kimco-Distributing/?nkw=Easy%20Braid
From Germany: http://stores.ebay.com/ukpartsdeal/Sound-Vision-/?_nkw=EasyBraid

Thermaltronics doesn't seem to have a lot of resellers (yet?), so it's nice there's other sources like Amazon and a huge distributor like DigiKey for (rebranded) Thermaltronics tips, hand pieces etc.

EasyBraid Tips <-> Metcal Tips Cross References: http://www.easybraidco.com/cross-references.php?competitor=4
Thermaltronics Tips <-> Metcal Tips Cross References: http://www.thermaltronics.com/references.php


EasyBraid EB9000S

Exact same picture as the below except for the brand sticker, looks like they have just photoshopped another name on:

Thermaltronics TMT-9000S

Newer picture, looks like they have changed the design of the handpiece holder:

Thermaltronics TMT-9000S
« Last Edit: October 12, 2013, 06:07:52 am by AndersAnd »
 

Offline ee.jmlp

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #255 on: October 14, 2013, 03:32:07 am »
Don't worry about spamming "my" work. First of all, i am not the original designer of the system used. Standing of the shoulders of others, as they say. Secondly, i very much welcome discussion of what improvements could be done to the little, simple circuit i made. And finally, since i am not an RF guy myself, i very much welcome any discussion about that stuff.

Personally? Yes, i am pretty sure that in (at least) this instance there is not much (if any) gain in using litz wire, compared to solid core wire. As said, any heatup that i could note was pretty much only in the cores themselves. This is most obvious with the transformer on the ferrite core. Simply using a bigger core got rid of most of the heat, while still using solid core wire. This is proof positive that the core itself has much more influence than the type of wire used.

Plus, most of the manufacturers of radios out there use solid core wire as well. Yea, some might say they are all wrong, but i highly doubt it. Theory is one thing, practice is another. Sure, you may get rid of a small amount of losses by using litz wire, but the cost of doing so is probably much higher than the cost of the actual losses. After all, companies are not charities. If they could make something that gives them an advantage over their competitiors, they will do it. But since rarely anyone uses litz wire in such applications, i have to assume that the cost/benefit ratio is heavily tilted towards simple solid core wire here.

But hey, that is just what i think. Build it using litz wire, and let's see how it compares. I'm always open to that kind of stuff. But you have to show me substantial data to change my mind. So, unless someone builds the circuit as is, plus another one using litz wire, and then compares them and finds substantial benefits for litz wire, i will stick to my preliminary conclusion that the type of wire simply does not matter that much, if at all.

Greetings,

Chris

Edit: To make it clear: I really mean same circuit. That is, same parts, same layout, everything the same, except for the inductors and transformer in the RF path. Then show what the actual differences are. Does it heat up half a second faster due to less losses? Does it consume a few miliamperes less current to achive the same output on the same tip cartridge? If so, what is the price difference between that litz wire and solid core? Solid core is bog standard and cheap. Litz wire, not so much. At least for RF applications. There is no gain in saving one buck in electricity during the lifetime of the thing, when using litz wire costs 2 bucks more... Heck, even if i save one buck and the litz wire costs me one buck extra, i have saved nothing at all.

Keep in mind that this project is meant to be built by others without resorting to too many exotic parts. The FET driver is already quite exotic, but still readily available. Some specific litz wire is (in my experience) much harder to come by, compared to regular magnet wire....

Heyyyy, I'm back :)   I have good news!!
This last week I made the unit you uploaded in Eagle files with few custom mods, and taraaa, It Works!!  (thank you this time mamalala to save me the design stage) I wanted to make something different but I have lots of work and no time. Own etching with in single side board and strong ground plane (0.4mm thick) on the other side pressed with epoxy.

I used fixed commertial inductors for the output filter and 3 custom made switched power sources with different adjustable voltages fixed in 5.1V, 12.6V, 27.5V outputs.
I get 21V (or more if I allow it) output in full power and 8.1V in idle.

8.1V in idle, I saw you get more than 13V in idle, mine heats up in 7s or less. It melts 40/60 and 99.3/0.7 like a champ. I'm amazed with this soldering iron and still cannot believe its awesomeness power ;)

Maybe the difference is the tip and the room temperature. I wired the transformer with 4wires of 0.5mm dia each. I mean, you used two twisted wires, I used two twisted two twisted wires xD (2line litz wire <- thats litz, cheap enough).

NO heat in any component. Buck regulator warms but thats all. (The following days I'll connect the lcd w psoc controller).

Thank you very much again. I'll upload a photo tomorrow.
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Offline mamalalaTopic starter

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #256 on: October 14, 2013, 01:57:08 pm »
Hi ee.jmlp,

sounds great! Looking forward to see some pics, as well as some details about the used inductors and stuff.

Yes, the heatup times, idle-voltages, etc. depend on the type of tip used. Also, the length of the cable from the RF generator to the connector plays a role as well, as i have found out. Quite likely the type of cable used as well (i.e. RG58 vs. RG59, for example). As said, i lack the proper tools to do good RF meassurements, so i went with stuff that worked well. Theree sure is room for improvement. Also, you can adjust what voltages it idles or heats up at through the trimpots. As a rule of thumb, the lower the idle voltage, the longer it will take to recover from idle to full temp. I chose to have a rather quick response, and in addition put that sleep/boost stuff in the firmware to get some extra control over that.

Since so much depends on the circuitry/cabling, just looking at the supply voltage makes sense only if the comparison is done between more or less identical layouts and setups. For example, i'm pretty sure that the SWR "bridge" i added to the PCB is far from optimal, so it likely matters a lot how (or if at all) one implements such a thing. And as said, cables, etc. influence it as well. For example, if i simply increase the length of the cable between my PCB and the F-Connector to, lets say, twice the length, i get a higher idle voltage. Stands to reason that reducing the length would result in a alower idle voltage (but never tried it). The only "definite" thing that could be compared is what actually gets out at the F-Connector, while the used tip type and handle stays the same.

Greetings,

Chris
 

Offline ee.jmlp

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #257 on: October 14, 2013, 06:51:39 pm »
Maybe I'm wrong with the term "idle".

I call idle when the tip reaches Curie point, power output goes down and tip stays hot. I need some time to fine adjust the feedback but I cannot see a moment with frozen tin. If I touch a 0.4mm thick copper plane it takes 2s to adsorb the tin in the copper.

I'll give you all of the details.
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Offline mamalalaTopic starter

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #258 on: October 14, 2013, 07:45:21 pm »
Maybe I'm wrong with the term "idle".

I call idle when the tip reaches Curie point, power output goes down and tip stays hot. I need some time to fine adjust the feedback but I cannot see a moment with frozen tin. If I touch a 0.4mm thick copper plane it takes 2s to adsorb the tin in the copper.

I'll give you all of the details.

Yes, that's what i refer to as idle as well ;) I just found that if i set that voltage too low, it takes a little bit longer to recover if you hit a big copper area. After all, the tip does not act in a binary on/off fashion. There is still heat produced, due to losses in the coil and the metal/copper, so it regulates the output power down once it reached a bit above that curie point. At least that is how i understand what i can see and meassure here. But then again, my circuit is not perfect and i never really analyzed the original one to the level i did with my circuit. So there may well be some kinks in the finer details. But in the end it works, and that is all that matters, to me at least ;)

Greetings,

Chris

Edit: And as mentioned in my previous post: There are other factors than just the tip that contribute to what the idle supply voltage is.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 07:47:27 pm by mamalala »
 

Offline AndersAnd

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #259 on: October 15, 2013, 11:31:54 am »
As for the handpiece, the patent is

http://www.google.com/patents/US4839501

According to that patent there seems to be a capacitor in series to the tip cartridge.
Looks more like "position 80" is a feed-through capacitor with the capacitance in parallel with the tip cartridge.
Of course then the proximal lead of the feed-through capacitor is then in series with the inner wire (maybe that's what you meant by capacitor in series), but the capacitance is between the proximal lead and the housing of the feed-through capacitor, and the housing must be connected to the coax socket shield. You can see the feed-through capacitor housing touching the shield at one side in the patent drawing. So this means the capacitance is in parallel with the tip cartridge [or in other words between the inner wire and shield of the coax socket].

Quote
Moving to the distal portion of socket assembly 68, inner socket 78 is electrically connected by solder to a lead of capacitor 80, which in turn has its proximal lead soldered to inner wire 82 of coaxial cable of coaxial cable 54.


The feed-through capacitor (80) inside socket assembly (68).

Metcal handpeice taken apart, where you can see the socket assembly (68): http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/9071/fixing-a-broken-metcal-handpiece

« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 11:40:08 am by AndersAnd »
 

Offline AndersAnd

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #260 on: October 15, 2013, 12:01:01 pm »
I'm wondering if any of the many available coax sockets can fit on the cartridge.
Does the tips fit an SMB or SMC female connector?

SMB and SMC has similar outer and inner dimensions for the male plug, so if it fits one female, it might fit both.

http://www.rf-microwave.com/eng/catalog_view_category/95-smb-series-connectors.html
Quote
SMB series connectors

The miniature SMB connectors are used for internal connections in RF equipments with good performances up to microwave frequencies. SMB and SMC are similar and can be easily confused, SMB type has a snap-on coupling while SMC type is provided with a coupling nut like SMA. The SMB connector can be used up to 6 GHz.


http://www.rf-microwave.com/eng/catalog_view_category/98-smb-series-connectors.html
Quote
SMC series connectors

The miniature SMC connectors are used for internal connections in RF equipments with good performances up to microwave frequencies. SMB and SMC are similar and can be easily confused, SMB type has a snap-on coupling while SMC type is provided with a coupling nut like SMA. The SMC connector can be used up to 6 - 8 GHz and it is a good compromise between the SMA, from which has copied the screw coupling, and the SMB, from which has copied the small size.


I don't have a Metcal / Thermaltroincs tip at hand, what's the outer and inner diameter at the socket end? For SMB and SMC OD is 3.7 mm.

The socket end of the tips kind of looks like a male SMB connector without the groove or a male SMC connector without the threads:




All dimensions for SMB at the bottom: http://www.rfconnector.com/smb-connectors.php
All dimensions for SMC at the bottom: http://www.rfconnector.com/smc-connectors.php
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 02:18:02 pm by AndersAnd »
 

Offline mamalalaTopic starter

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #261 on: October 15, 2013, 02:11:20 pm »
Hi AndersAnd,

quite possible that it is a feed-through cap. If any is there, it must be: there is basically a DC short when you meassure between shield and center pin of the F connector.

Attached are some images about the tip connector side with caliper meassurements (not 100% accurate, had to hold the stuff in one hand, and the cam in the other...)

Greetings,

Chris
 

Offline AndersAnd

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #262 on: October 15, 2013, 02:26:28 pm »
Hi AndersAnd,

quite possible that it is a feed-through cap. If any is there, it must be: there is basically a DC short when you meassure between shield and center pin of the F connector.
A DC short between shield and center pin of the F connector? Is this also true with no tip mounted?
This wouldn't be explained by any capacitor as those are open circuit at DC, so is there also an inductor in parallel, to make the DC short?
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 02:55:17 pm by AndersAnd »
 

Offline mamalalaTopic starter

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #263 on: October 15, 2013, 02:37:31 pm »
Hi AndersAnd,

quite possible that it is a feed-through cap. If any is there, it must be: there is basically a DC short when you meassure between shield and center pin of the F connector.
A DC short between shield and center pin of the F connector? Is this also true with no tip mounted?
This wouldn't be explained by any capacitor as those are open circuit at DC, so is there also an inductor in parallel, to make the DC short?

Only with the tip inserted. Without it is open circuit. This is also what the type of tip-detection i implemented detects. Same is true for the Metcal Talon tweezers, just that the two cartridges there are in series. So, if there is any cap, it must be a feedthrough type, that is, the capacitance is only between center and shield. (Called "Durchführungskondensator" in German).

I was just assuming that the cap shown in the patent would be a regular one. But as you said (and as i noted very early on), that just can't be, otherwise there wouldn't be a DC short with an inserted tip, and an open without a tip.

Greetings,

Chris
 

Offline AndersAnd

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #264 on: October 15, 2013, 02:51:13 pm »
Hi AndersAnd,

quite possible that it is a feed-through cap. If any is there, it must be: there is basically a DC short when you meassure between shield and center pin of the F connector.
A DC short between shield and center pin of the F connector? Is this also true with no tip mounted?
This wouldn't be explained by any capacitor as those are open circuit at DC, so is there also an inductor in parallel, to make the DC short?
Only with the tip inserted. Without it is open circuit. This is also what the type of tip-detection i implemented detects. Same is true for the Metcal Talon tweezers, just that the two cartridges there are in series. So, if there is any cap, it must be a feedthrough type, that is, the capacitance is only between center and shield. (Called "Durchführungskondensator" in German).

I was just assuming that the cap shown in the patent would be a regular one. But as you said (and as i noted very early on), that just can't be, otherwise there wouldn't be a DC short with an inserted tip, and an open without a tip.

Greetings,

Chris
Oh now I see what you mean. With a capacitor in series there would have been no DC short when you insert a tip, which is the case.
But based on the patent drawing it looks like a feed-through capacitor with the capacitance being between the inner wire and shield. And this wouldn't prevent the DC short you measure between inner lead and shield with a tip inserted, so it's very likely there's some small feed-through capacitor hidden inside the socket.
Maybe someone would be able to measure it, but the coax cable will have some capacitance itself, so if it's a small value feed-through capacitor it would be hard to measure or tell if it's just cable capacitance you measure.
Edit: a regular RG58 coax cable has a capacitance of approx 25 pF/ft (82 pF/m) according to Wikipedia, so if someone measures the capacitance of the handpiece you could try to compare it to this and see if the capacitance is any higher than this.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 03:01:40 pm by AndersAnd »
 

Offline AndersAnd

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #265 on: October 15, 2013, 03:10:30 pm »
Attached are some images about the tip connector side with caliper meassurements (not 100% accurate, had to hold the stuff in one hand, and the cam in the other...)

Greetings,

Chris
Danke schön  :-+

Your measured outer diameter is quite close to the 3.7 mm of male SMB / SMC connectors.
But the 0.9 mm inner pin diameter you measured is much bigger than the 0.5 mm of the SMB / SMC inner pins, so it probably won't fit those.
Anyone know of a coax connector that would fit the dimensions of the Metcal tips?
 

Offline ee.jmlp

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #266 on: October 15, 2013, 07:35:11 pm »
Hey, I got cheap handpiece from RS for 60€.

Here are the pics.

I modified the bypass capacitors before transformer, I put 4x100nF + 4x10nF (stacked in 2 files), 8 capacitors in total.
With 3x100nF capacitors X7R there wasn't enough. I saw  it in the oscilloscope. Just between the transformer input and ground.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 07:41:36 pm by ee.jmlp »
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Offline mamalalaTopic starter

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #267 on: October 15, 2013, 07:47:59 pm »
Hey, I got cheap handpiece from RS for 60€.

Here are the pics.

I modified the bypass capacitors before transformer, I put 4x100nF + 4x10nF (stacked in 2 files), 8 capacitors in total.
With 3x100nF capacitors X7R there wasn't enough. I saw  it in the oscilloscope. Just between the transformer input and ground.

Nice! Your poor sidecutter, what with all the wire stubs for the GND connection to the bottom :D

Yea, the three caps there are not optimal. In my first prototype i had even less (but bigger capacitance), and one of them sometimes blew into a short when switching off...

What inductors did you use? And what did you use for L4? In the pics it looks like there is a heatsink on that one? They should not get warm/hot. That is why i chose to use standard cores plus do-it-yourself windings on them. The "ready to use" ones i testes with initially got terribly hot, although their datasheet said something about 10 MHz test frequency...

Anyways, nice to see that this project is of help for you. And i _always_ like when people do their own interpretations of the thing!

Greetings,

Chris
 

Offline mamalalaTopic starter

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #268 on: October 15, 2013, 08:01:35 pm »
Oh,

and "cheap" is relative. Sure, that Metcal stuff is really high quality, but still, it's basically just a simple handle with a bit of coax and a F connector... But hey, what i am complaining. Just look at what a simple stand for that handle costs. :D

In any case, look around on eBay for tip cartridges. There are lots of cheap ones there, new and used. My favourite one is the STTC-126. Somewhat combines a fine point tip with the benefits of a chisel tip (due to it's bend). Here are cheap new ones:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/290990293484

There is also a seller who sells sets of used tips for a good price, if you want a nice variety of tips:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/20-Metcal-soldering-tips-various-types-sizes-used-tips-but-cheap-/190931325260

Greetings,

Chris

Greetings,

Chris

Edit: And if you (or someone else) needs a SMTC-007 (this is for SOIC-28 packages), let me know. Have three new ones in original packaging left. 15 Euros for one, plus shipping...
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 08:04:29 pm by mamalala »
 

Offline ee.jmlp

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #269 on: October 15, 2013, 10:07:12 pm »
Before cutting the wires the board was completely sewn with non-enameled copper wire.

The inductors (search for SMD power inductors in newark or farnell) must have SRF at least at 60MHz or higher, the core material must be low permeability iron powder or composite (not ferrite), the saturation current must be at least 3 times the max rms alternating current of the inductor and the DCR shuldn't be more than 3mOhm. Shielded always better. Look at the datasheet the inductance is stable enough in the current range you'll use.

The inductor with a heatsink has a low saturating current, that is a weak point I didn't see when I bought it. Think a small component (low volume and low dissipating area) that spends 1W can reach the temperature of the sun.

Btw the rest of components aren't hot.

If you use a toroid for the main supply, connect in parallel an X2 rated capacitor at the 220Vac input (330nF even 100nF should be enough), that would eat the switching off transient in other case will be dissipated in the rest of the circuit blowing any component. I put them always I use a conventional transformer. Big filtering capacitors also helps a slow decay in the supply voltage and so a slow half-controlled turn off.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 10:10:30 pm by ee.jmlp »
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Offline Parak

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #270 on: October 18, 2013, 03:07:54 pm »
Curious if something similar might be done for the cheaper metcal/oki MFR units, especially as I have a full set of them (handpieces/tweezers/desoldering) :P. They do use a different (8 pin din) connector, but if the frequency/power can be boosted up to regular metcal levels via diy, that'd be quite amazing.
 

Offline mamalalaTopic starter

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #271 on: October 18, 2013, 03:15:17 pm »
Curious if something similar might be done for the cheaper metcal/oki MFR units, especially as I have a full set of them (handpieces/tweezers/desoldering) :P. They do use a different (8 pin din) connector, but if the frequency/power can be boosted up to regular metcal levels via diy, that'd be quite amazing.

The supply circuit for those 470 kHz systems is pretty simple. Gerhard over at the µC.net forum has drawn out the schematics for the SP200 supply unit: http://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/311671#3363592. This one is the predescessor to the MFR1100 unit.

As you can see, a really simple thing.

Greetings,

Chris
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 08:37:17 pm by mamalala »
 

Offline Parak

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #272 on: October 18, 2013, 03:27:36 pm »

The supply circuit for those 470 kHz systems is pretty simple. Gerhard over at the µC.net forum has drawn out the schematics for the SP200 supply unit:http://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/311671#3363592. This one is the predescessor to the MFR1100 unit.

As you can see, a really simple thing.

Neat, but I have little interest myself in just making new power supplies, having a station myself already. I was more interested in getting the power up to the MX series 13.56 mhz levels while keeping all the existing handpiece and vacuum bits that I already have :D

Of course, if this is somehow possible, then it makes the cheaper MFR handpieces an alternative to MX ones for anyone looking to do a diy power supply as well.
 

Offline mamalalaTopic starter

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #273 on: October 18, 2013, 03:33:50 pm »
Neat, but I have little interest myself in just making new power supplies, having a station myself already. I was more interested in getting the power up to the MX series 13.56 mhz levels while keeping all the existing handpiece and vacuum bits that I already have :D

Of course, if this is somehow possible, then it makes the cheaper MFR handpieces an alternative to MX ones for anyone looking to do a diy power supply as well.

Ah, sorry, i misunderstood you then.

No, the two systems are not compatible, it is a completely different frequency range, and thus the parameters that the 470 kHz hanpieces, cartridges, etc. present do not match to what would be required. Well, to be clear, it's probably possible to somehow match those two together, but this will very likely involve massive losses and thus make no real sense.

Greetings,

Chris
 

Offline Parak

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Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #274 on: October 18, 2013, 04:03:24 pm »
No, the two systems are not compatible, it is a completely different frequency range, and thus the parameters that the 470 kHz hanpieces, cartridges, etc. present do not match to what would be required. Well, to be clear, it's probably possible to somehow match those two together, but this will very likely involve massive losses and thus make no real sense.

Hmm, are the tip heater elements (or materials used perhaps) so different between those in MFR and MX tips that a frequency increase would result in a different curie point? Pardon my ignorance when it comes to these things, but I guess I was hoping that the tips are not really that different, and all that the higher frequency does is allow for more power, faster.
 


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