Author Topic: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply  (Read 353204 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline richard.cs

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1191
  • Country: gb
  • Electronics engineer from Southampton, UK.
    • Random stuff I've built (mostly non-electronic and fairly dated).
Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #475 on: August 09, 2017, 11:46:52 am »
To me it's the power supply side that's most open to changes, if you're going to plan for an external DC supply (laptop brick or similar) then I suspect a little input protection and RF filtering may be in order.

A bigger step (which I remember a few people discussing earlier in the thread) would be to change the supply topology, perhaps making it buck-boost or SEPIC, so that it can operate from 12 V nominal (say 10-16 V) which makes it quite portable. I achieved the same thing in mine by using a separate boost converter, maybe the simplest approach there is to put an up-front boost onto the board in place of the 50 Hz rectifiers and smoothing. Mine now works off mains or on DC from 10 V to 32 V.
 

Offline Monkeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7992
  • Country: gb
Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #476 on: August 09, 2017, 03:10:38 pm »
Just hope to this awesome broject be finalized as best as possible ,so everybody can use it without any fear and problems.
I live in italy and to buy an real brand new metcal station i need to spend over 799 euros,because of 22% of taxes :( .


And yet, they're actually only €560..

Or you could obtain a new Thermaltronics, for about €400, or a second hand Metcal, for as little as €150 with some patience..
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 03:14:50 pm by Monkeh »
 

Offline Monkeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7992
  • Country: gb
Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #477 on: August 09, 2017, 03:20:37 pm »
and this is on the official webstore ,if i will go to another place the price will be higher .... so pleas shut down your ignorance.
Thanks


And this is Farnell Italy, where the price is lower: http://it.farnell.com/metcal/mx-500s/soldering-station-2-channel-40w/dp/2373305DM

Mind you, you haven't specified the package..
 

Offline NavyBOFH

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 32
  • Country: us
Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #478 on: August 09, 2017, 03:24:50 pm »
And yet, they're actually only €560..

Or you could obtain a new Thermaltronics, for about €400, or a second hand Metcal, for as little as €150 with some patience..

That isn't the reason for this project or why Chris spent the time on the initial design and firmware.

For one, almost every Metcal I've seen that's "cheap" is beat to snot and/or needing repairs of its own. Currently the only fully reverse engineered model is the initial MX-500 which doesn't have MCU control or display - which this has.

Next, the models you see are then $350-500 for a used model with still a closed-source schematic and design - and usually you still need to find a hand piece and stand.

Then, you come to this project. It's open-source, it works very well, and gives you the option of choosing whatever hand piece and tips you want to use that are RF induction. So you can choose Hakko, Metcal, Thermaltronics... etc.

I spent the money to have the first batch of revised boards printed. Assuming there were zero errors in the Gerbers, design, or manufacture, I still spent close to $60 just to try this myself. The fact I'll have spare boards to ship to others who want to donate shipping cost and a few dollars cash is a bonus to those that don't want to spend $60 when I can send a set of boards for $10-15. The total for parts to complete the boards? My DigiKey cart sits at $107 and the only things missing are the LCD and the rotary encoder for the board - and a case. Put all that together, with some patience, and even buying a brand new Hakko hand piece and stand... I made a complete, brand new, open source and community supported station for less than I can find a "good" used Metcal power supply.

The choice is yours in the end - but you came to the projects section to tell us that we are better off buying something used - not much in the spirit of projects.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
The following users thanked this post: Free_WiFi

Offline NavyBOFH

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 32
  • Country: us
Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #479 on: August 09, 2017, 03:32:25 pm »

These are your "cheap" models I mentioned. Not microprocessor controlled, not firmware updatable, and many come with questionable reliability and background.


These are my options for new. In US Dollars. And they are the base model with hand piece, no tips, and "on sale". The project even with me considering the full cost to PCBs is still going to cost me $250 less. That's a LOT of tips and maybe even a spare handle or some tweezers.

Now - let's get back on track about the project and not about the trolling of what's considered a useful project to someone or not. Again, you came to the project section to pretty much say "why bother?". Good for you. Point noted. Now we will continue with the project just like you can continue browsing other topics since this is your "sore spot".


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Offline Monkeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7992
  • Country: gb
Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #480 on: August 09, 2017, 03:36:06 pm »
And yet, they're actually only €560..

Or you could obtain a new Thermaltronics, for about €400, or a second hand Metcal, for as little as €150 with some patience..

That isn't the reason for this project or why Chris spent the time on the initial design and firmware.

For one, almost every Metcal I've seen that's "cheap" is beat to snot and/or needing repairs of its own. Currently the only fully reverse engineered model is the initial MX-500 which doesn't have MCU control or display - which this has.

I'm aware of that, but I'm not attacking this project - only his whining about the price of buying one.

Quote
Then, you come to this project. It's open-source, it works very well, and gives you the option of choosing whatever hand piece and tips you want to use that are RF induction. So you can choose Hakko, Metcal, Thermaltronics... etc.

Which are all interchangable on the existing stations anyway.

Quote
The choice is yours in the end - but you came to the projects section to tell us that we are better off buying something used - not much in the spirit of projects.

No, I came to counter the bold claim of a member who I'm pretty sure has been banned twice that it's impossible to get a Metcal for under €800.

I actually really like this project, and I'd love to see a nice, portable 12V version I could use on the move. Not here to knock, I've been watching this thread for a while now to see how it goes. You'll note that nowhere have I said it's a bad idea and that you should just buy a second hand one - I simply said that you don't have to pay that much for a new station, let alone a used one.

ps. my Metcal predates the 'initial' MX-500 by over a decade and it's not the first model - it cost about $100 and had no damage but some corrosion on the stand - add in a transformer for a proper supply voltage (off the shelf part still!) and some tips, and I have a very nice station (which needs no display or MCU - not that those are bad). I just had to make room in the suitcase..

Lol if you really think that also this package is really affordable ,then pls send me € 460,85 to my paypal and i will be happy :)


I think considering you get the power supply, iron, and stand, it's not an awful price for a brand new, warrantied product. I also think it's less than the €799+ you claim you must pay to get a Metcal.

Quote
Now - let's get back on track about the project and not about the trolling of what's considered a useful project to someone or not. Again, you came to the project section to pretty much say "why bother?". Good for you. Point noted. Now we will continue with the project just like you can continue browsing other topics since this is your "sore spot".

Stop putting words in my mouth, please. Again, like this project, watching closely. I'd chip in on it but I do not have the funds and spare parts to play with it.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 03:38:31 pm by Monkeh »
 

Offline NavyBOFH

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 32
  • Country: us
Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #481 on: August 09, 2017, 03:43:06 pm »
And yet, they're actually only €560..

Or you could obtain a new Thermaltronics, for about €400, or a second hand Metcal, for as little as €150 with some patience..

That isn't the reason for this project or why Chris spent the time on the initial design and firmware.

For one, almost every Metcal I've seen that's "cheap" is beat to snot and/or needing repairs of its own. Currently the only fully reverse engineered model is the initial MX-500 which doesn't have MCU control or display - which this has.

I'm aware of that, but I'm not attacking this project - only his whining about the price of buying one.

Quote
Then, you come to this project. It's open-source, it works very well, and gives you the option of choosing whatever hand piece and tips you want to use that are RF induction. So you can choose Hakko, Metcal, Thermaltronics... etc.

Which are all interchangable on the existing stations anyway.

Quote
The choice is yours in the end - but you came to the projects section to tell us that we are better off buying something used - not much in the spirit of projects.

No, I came to counter the bold claim of a member who I'm pretty sure has been banned twice that it's impossible to get a Metcal for under €800.

I actually really like this project, and I'd love to see a nice, portable 12V version I could use on the move. Not here to knock, I've been watching this thread for a while now to see how it goes. You'll note that nowhere have I said it's a bad idea and that you should just buy a second hand one - I simply said that you don't have to pay that much for a new station, let alone a used one.

ps. my Metcal predates the 'initial' MX-500 by over a decade and it's not the first model - it cost about $100 and had no damage but some corrosion on the stand - add in a transformer for a proper supply voltage (off the shelf part still!) and some tips, and I have a very nice station (which needs no display or MCU - not that those are bad). I just had to make room in the suitcase..

Lol if you really think that also this package is really affordable ,then pls send me € 460,85 to my paypal and i will be happy :)


I think considering you get the power supply, iron, and stand, it's not an awful price for a brand new, warrantied product. I also think it's less than the €799+ you claim you must pay to get a Metcal.

Quote
Now - let's get back on track about the project and not about the trolling of what's considered a useful project to someone or not. Again, you came to the project section to pretty much say "why bother?". Good for you. Point noted. Now we will continue with the project just like you can continue browsing other topics since this is your "sore spot".

Stop putting words in my mouth, please. Again, like this project, watching closely.
Thank you for clarifying. My intention was not to attack just to defend open source hardware like all projects on this site. I work on closed source hardware for a living and spend my days trying to fix things that aren't supported anymore but also no schematics available or replacements are too expensive. Broadcasting equipment is planned to be obsolete quickly and leave engineers suffering. And that's my work. So these projects are a breath of fresh air and I am a strong supporter of open source.

The MX-500 is the first Metcal I've ever touched and we have 4 of them at our stations to do repairs. We also have some Hakko and Weller stations for basic work, and one Pace MBT250 that hasn't died no matter if lightning hits it. I enjoy these pieces of equipment but I cannot afford to put a "new model" Metcal in my house - and I know others would rather work on this project than buy a used station as well which is where my "defensiveness" takes place.

As for the planned future - I too would like to find a way to make it more portable, efficient, cool running, and accepting of more power sources. I work throughout the state and cannot take a full station with me so my end goal is to make a bench quality system as portable as possible so I can still have it in my trunk with the tons of parts and test equipment I need as well.



Just another day getting ready to use one here lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Offline Monkeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7992
  • Country: gb
Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #482 on: August 09, 2017, 05:06:51 pm »
Just another day getting ready to use one here lol

Are the strain reliefs on the handpieces still taking a 'set' from sitting like that? Mine's never coming out.. but it's been in there for 20 years.

No, I came to counter the bold claim of a member who I'm pretty sure has been banned twice that it's impossible to get a Metcal for under €800.
Are you just pretty sure or you have some kind of proof ?

Nope! Not that it matters to you:

Quote
And yes ,here in Italy it's impossible to get a Metcal for under €800

As I proved that it is possible, and you ignored it.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 05:08:37 pm by Monkeh »
 

Offline NavyBOFH

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 32
  • Country: us
Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #483 on: August 09, 2017, 05:11:05 pm »
These Metcal stations are only 2 years old but the cables and strain reliefs still flex like they are new. I hope they stay that way because I can't stand stiff cords or strain reliefs!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 17816
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #484 on: October 22, 2017, 02:08:46 pm »
Just another day getting ready to use one here lol

Are the strain reliefs on the handpieces still taking a 'set' from sitting like that? Mine's never coming out.. but it's been in there for 20 years.

No, I came to counter the bold claim of a member who I'm pretty sure has been banned twice that it's impossible to get a Metcal for under €800.
Are you just pretty sure or you have some kind of proof ?

Nope! Not that it matters to you:

Quote
And yes ,here in Italy it's impossible to get a Metcal for under €800

As I proved that it is possible, and you ignored it.

You are such a dumb-ass,you didn't yet realize that also 400,00 euros are very expensive here in Italy .....
Also if i could get an complete metcal system (1tip,handpiece,stand,power supply) for 600,00 euros it would be always too much expensive with the average salary of 1200.00 shekels................. think about that Monkeh.

So you are aguing about €800 and now you are disproved you decide your argusing about €400? I know things in italy are hard but there is no need to be abusive, if your on 1200€ maybe I should come back! try living in the UK
 

Offline Neganur

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1138
  • Country: fi
Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #485 on: October 22, 2017, 08:02:59 pm »
Actually, I sold an MX500 station for 80 EUR here, it is definitely not impossible to get them.
The only problem is they are bloody heavy and so shipping can be really expensive (from Finland anyway).

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/fs-(eu)-metcal-mx500p-solder-station-power-supply/msg1067739/#msg1067739
 

Offline Nuno_pt

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 435
  • Country: pt
Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #486 on: October 23, 2017, 10:31:27 am »
I don't know what is the problem, I recently have bought an MX500p for 100€ shipped from UK, and around 130€ for the sleep stand and RM3 iron, plus a bunch of tips from Israel.

With maybe 200€ I put up a good soldering system, and by the way the average salary in Portugal are around 750€, the minimum salary here is 575€ month.
Nuno
CT2IRY
 

Offline NavyBOFH

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 32
  • Country: us
Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #487 on: November 22, 2017, 03:08:43 am »
someone can explain me pls ,why i can't find the new pcb gerber from mr. NavyBOFH ?

I apologize for falling off the map for a while. My health has declined pretty badly over the past handful of months and I have been struggling to catch up my health along with work, school, and personal life.

Long story short: The PCBs came in and looked good - not spectacular but good. I started ordering some components and left the PCBs and components in a box on my repair bench at work. I ended up out of work for the better part of a month - and when I came back the box had grown legs and I haven't seen it since... so I lost the PCBs and a good $350 of components I bought.

I will double-check my Google Drive, but I thought the PCB Gerber files were uploaded there and the link shared in this thread. I will double-check them and upload newer versions if necessary and link it here.
 
The following users thanked this post: Free_WiFi

Offline CM800

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 882
  • Country: 00
Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #488 on: February 02, 2018, 05:31:16 pm »
Curious: How much do we know about how the soldering tips are designed?

How feasable would it be to make your own soldering tip from scratch.

Ignore the cost factor etc. Say this is for a different application no standard tip would do?
 

Offline Cerebus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10576
  • Country: gb
Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #489 on: February 02, 2018, 05:43:27 pm »
Curious: How much do we know about how the soldering tips are designed?

How feasable would it be to make your own soldering tip from scratch.

Ignore the cost factor etc. Say this is for a different application no standard tip would do?

Dig back in the thread and you'll find references to the patents for the tips. Those should give you some idea.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline David Hess

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16620
  • Country: us
  • DavidH
Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #490 on: February 05, 2018, 03:57:41 pm »
Since the ordinary transistors like the IRF510 can't solve the common problems of this RF power supply,then,can we go with an dedicated Rf Fet like this?

An RF power MOSFET could be used but they are expensive and at only 13.56MHz, not required.  Redesigning the circuit to use a more modern TO-220 part would be much easier and less expensive.
 

Offline SergeyMax

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 1
  • Country: ru
Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #491 on: February 10, 2018, 07:12:39 am »
Since the ordinary transistors like the IRF510 can't solve the common problems of this RF power supply,then,can we go with an dedicated Rf Fet like this?
SD1902
RF fets usually have low Vds voltage, SD1902 has 65V only. It is too low for this application. I would recommend you to completely redesign output schematics to make two-stage output amplifier, as it was made in the original Metcal stations. They use such solution to avoid Vds overstress. For example, in the new MX5000 output transistor has 500V Vds! But of course it has very large input capacitance, so it can't be driven directly at 13,6 MHz by the tiny standard driver.
 
The following users thanked this post: Free_WiFi

Offline affinekinetic

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 2
  • Country: ie
Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #492 on: March 19, 2018, 10:39:11 pm »
Mr.NavyBOFH,is also out from this project,he promised pcb gerber files ,but none yet.......     :--

The Google Drive folder‚ posted by NavyBOFH in reply #473, includes Gerber files.

Which Gerber files are you missing?
 
The following users thanked this post: Free_WiFi

Offline mamalalaTopic starter

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 777
  • Country: de
Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #493 on: March 31, 2018, 09:38:00 pm »
Yikes, i almost forgot about all this. Damn real life and work stuff always getting in the way of the fun things :)

Anyways, to (re-)clarify a few things:

- I'm not an RF engineer. It all was mostly trial-and-error, as well as simulations. So there sure is some room for improvement in that section.

- I never spent much time figuring out why the output FET dies sometimes for some people. It usually only happens when powering off  the system. However,  i found that not all IRF510's are the same. They vary between manufacturers.

- Yes, the RF stage isn't incredibly powerfull, using large Talon tips means slower heatup. However, it shouldn't be noticably slower than on a RFG-30 supply. At least it never was for me.

- The whole design was done to be as simple as possible, with mostly cheap off-the-shelf parts. Especially the driver chip is a big point that could be improved, i think. It just can't handle really large FET's. More powerful drivers usually have slower rise/fall times. I guess the only way to reliably get more power with a larger output FET would be to build a discrete driver stage instead of using a simple driver IC.

-  This thing was never meant to be a "final" version of anything. It was just meant to get things started, to get to a usable stage, so that other can jump in and improve on that. As said, i'm not a RF guy, so i'm sure that a lot can be improved there.

- Yes, the cores in the RF transfomer and filters are important. Different manufacturers seem to have wildly different real-world parameters, although the spec sheets suggest otherwise. At least that is what i observed back then.

- The IRF510 is pretty much at it's limit in this application. However, i think it would be somewhat trivial to increase the power with a little re-design of the circuit. Right now the primary side of the RF transformer is single ended, since there is only one FET driving it. One could make that a "real" transformer with a center-tapped primary instead, the center at the +24V supply. Then just use a second driver chip and IRF510, connected to the second leg of the primary, and drive it with an inverted signal. Unless i'm thinking wrong, that should increase the overall power output. This would also mean that the main supply voltage to the RF stage can be a bit lower, decreasing the stress on the FETs. The following output filtering stages (caps and inductors) probably need some beefing-up then as well to handle the increased power. Using proper RF litz wire may be useful as well, instead of solid core copper wire.

- Regarding the  RF transformer and filtering stages in general: Those were also mostly done by trial-and-error (again, because i'm not a RF guy). I tweaked things so that i got the most output power into a 50 ohms RF dummy load. That obviously does not mean that everything is tuned as good as it can. It's possible  that at some point there is a big mismatch and/or power loss, just covered up by having a better tuning at a different stage. I simply lack the tools required to make useful meassurements when it comes to RF power and matching.

Having said that, it's something that someone else has to pick up. As far as i am concerned, i got that initial experiment to work, that is, to come up with something that works and is usable, and that others can take as a starting point for further development. Sorry that i couldn't solve the issue with the output FET sometimes blowing up when switching the unit off hard. Since i only ever encountered that when powering it off by switching off the supply, and never had that issue when first doing a soft "power off" through the user interface, i would guess that this could be fixed in firmware (or hardware).

Take a small recitifier, hook it up to the AC input. Or "isolate" the DC by a big diode before it goes into the smoothing caps. The idea is to get a voltage that goes away as soon as the input voltage is powered off, and not being held up by the filtering caps. Feed that though a resistor+zener combination to give a +5V signal. Put that into a free pin on the microcontroller. Then all thats left is to just hack the firmware so that it disables the driver as soon as that signal goes away (or use some logic gate to combine that with the RF_EN signal). The basic idea being that RF_EN gets de-asserted as soon as the input supply voltage is turned off, even though the input filtering caps are still charged.

Oh, and i won't be making any new batches of boards. If anyone wants boards for the current design, they have to get to Seed, iTead, or similar, and have a batch made for themselves, and then hand out the excess boards to whoever wants some.

Greetings,

Chris
 
The following users thanked this post: 3roomlab, affinekinetic, Free_WiFi

Offline CM800

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 882
  • Country: 00
Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #494 on: May 09, 2018, 11:41:48 am »
Im selling my old Metcal Diy Pcb's board if you are interested ,then please write me in private :)
Thanks you very much.

Are you still continuing this project or has this been abandoned now?

I'm really interested in seeing where this project could go.
 

Offline prusony

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 2
  • Country: by
Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #495 on: May 16, 2018, 05:34:18 pm »
Huge thanks to Christian for project!! HUGE!!
I bought PCB and started to do.
Thanks again from Belarus. )
 

Offline prusony

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 2
  • Country: by
Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #496 on: May 17, 2018, 08:58:43 pm »
Huge thanks to Christian for project!! HUGE!!
I bought PCB and started to do.
Thanks again from Belarus. )
Привет JustNote
Привет! HI , Ciao ! )
 

Offline zmetzing

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 40
  • Country: us
Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #497 on: January 03, 2019, 05:20:51 pm »
This is what I have come up with so far: I have zipped each functional section into its own ZIP. One is the RF board, which seems to be the latest as of June 2013. The BOM is from zoltan and seems to be what Chris references as the "best list" available.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9MnfIuHNf_lNFlZaEwzbXdwOGc

Are these still the definitive latest sources for this project?

Thanks!
 

Offline hww

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 4
  • Country: ru
Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #498 on: January 16, 2020, 05:33:50 pm »
Here is my build of the DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply. I use it with a Hakko FX-100 iron.
Thanks to everyone who helped develop and publish this project. It all works great!
 
The following users thanked this post: 3roomlab, edavid, Free_WiFi, Mp3, fastguido, umbro

Offline idoit

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 31
Re: DIY Metcal 13.56 MHz RF Supply
« Reply #499 on: January 21, 2020, 05:13:46 pm »
@hww How much did it cost you? If you can be detailed that'd be great! Also, How did you build it? any guides?
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf