Author Topic: ESR meter  (Read 1708 times)

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Offline tigr

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ESR meter
« on: January 03, 2018, 07:24:26 AM »
Hi,
Who made this ESR meter?How can I get a more extended scale near zero?
http://www.nutsvolts.com/magazine/article/january2016_ESRMeterforTestBenchftp://
 

Offline Paul Price

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Re: ESR meter
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2018, 10:05:52 AM »
ESR is resistance and test and capacitor under test lead length is resistance, so how practical is this? You would have to cancel out the effect of these factors to be much less than one ohm.

In the circuit shown for this ESR meter there is a range switch for selecting 6-ohm FS or 1-ohm FS. You can experiment with using lower valued resistors to get better <1-ohm resolution and re-calibrate the readout with fractional ohm resistors.

If you can easily read the existing <1-ohm scale area of the meter, what's the advantage?

The circuit shown uses a 100KHz sine wave.  The capacitive reactance of a 1uF cap is at this freq. is approx 1.6 ohm. How good is this instrument if the test frequency doesn't already limit CUT capacitors to be >30uF to have any accuracy of ESR <1-ohm?

The website says:
"This meter is not suitable for testing capacitors less than 30 microfarads. If the CUT is too low, the reactance at the measuring frequency becomes significant, resulting in an excessive ESR reading. The solution to this problem is to redesign the system to use a higher frequency. If the need arises, I may try this as a future project."
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 10:39:27 AM by Paul Price »
 

Offline tigr

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Re: ESR meter
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2018, 11:11:37 AM »
Thanks
The circuit shown uses a 100KHz sine wave.  The capacitive reactance of a 1uF cap is at this freq. is approx 1.6 ohm. How good is this instrument if the test frequency doesn't already limit CUT capacitors to be >30uF to have any accuracy of ESR <1-ohm?
I want to use this circuit for low-impedance capacitors from 100uF. Therefore, the 1ohm scale is quite suitable. The switch can be removed, this is only additional resistance.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 11:24:48 AM by tigr »
 

Offline Paul Price

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Re: ESR meter
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2018, 11:19:15 AM »
It doesn't have a 10-ohm FS range setting.
 

Offline tigr

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Re: ESR meter
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2018, 11:24:12 AM »
1ohm :)
 

Offline Paul Price

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Re: ESR meter
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2018, 11:37:53 AM »
The schematic and PCB layout seems to have omitted an important capacitor.

The output pin of the TL317 regulator should have a 10uf to approx 100uF bypass capacitor at its output pin.

Perhaps it is just something to do with photography, but the 220-ohm and the 680-oum resistors seem to be 22-ohm and 68-ohm on the populated PCB shown (TL317 voltage adj.)
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 11:52:24 AM by Paul Price »
 

Offline Paul Price

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Re: ESR meter
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2018, 08:23:52 PM »
I like this well-documented ESR Meter for Jay_Daddy on this board:
Better protected from accidental HV charged cap.The OP circuit uses a 1N4184 protection diode and easy to smoke.
Simple Circuit
100KHz Test Freq.
Easier to build with SMD  components.
PCB shown clearly and meter face overlay provided.
Only 5 GP transistors needed plus a 78L05/7805/LM340T-5 Regulator, so much lower complexity.
Can be made almost for free using parts salvaged from other common CE equipment.
Meter stays at zero when there is  no CUT.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 08:42:14 PM by Paul Price »
 

Offline JoeO

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Re: ESR meter
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2018, 10:38:21 PM »
Alan Wolke made a video about J_Diddy_B's ESR Meter.  You might want to check it out.

The day Al Gore was born there were 7,000 polar bears on Earth.
Today, only 26,000 remain.
 

Offline tigr

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Re: ESR meter
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2018, 06:36:25 AM »
I like this well-documented ESR Meter for Jay_Daddy on this board:
Simple Circuit
A good circuit, but I need a ESR meter with a sinusoidal signal.
The question is not in the simplicity of the circuit. The question is in the other. Can this circuit measure small values of ESR or not.
In addition, I do not know the technical characteristics of the proposed ESR meter.
 

Offline JoeO

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Re: ESR meter
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2018, 06:45:35 AM »
What is your "small value of ESR" you want to measure.
The day Al Gore was born there were 7,000 polar bears on Earth.
Today, only 26,000 remain.
 

Offline tigr

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Re: ESR meter
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2018, 07:28:43 AM »
Less than 0.01 Ohm.
 For example.
Rubycon ZLG Ultra Low Impedance 1000uF/35v.Max.impedance-0,012Ohm.
http://www.rubycon.co.jp/en/catalog/e_pdfs/aluminum/e_ZLG.pdf
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 07:53:21 AM by tigr »
 

Offline kripton2035

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Re: ESR meter
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2018, 07:50:25 AM »
Less than 0.01 Ohm.
then you need 4-wires measurement, and this circuit is only 2-wires. you won't get these small values with it.

Offline tigr

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Re: ESR meter
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2018, 09:47:50 AM »
2-wires
4-wires
We see that there is no difference. ;)
 

Offline The Electrician

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Re: ESR meter
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2018, 02:48:37 PM »
2-wires
4-wires
We see that there is no difference. ;)

There is no difference when the two "wires" are the very short and thick blades on a tweezer type LCR meter as you show.  That's not what Kripton2035 is talking about.  The project you are planning to build has a couple of banana plugs on the project box connect with ordinary wires inside the box.  Those wires probably have a resistance of several milliohms which will add to the measured ESR unless some method is provided for compensating.  Using a 4 wire connection is the standard way of solving the problem of lead resistance.

Why are you going to build this project when you already have a tweezer LCR meter?  Doesn't the tweezer meter use a sine wave for excitation?
 
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Offline tigr

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Re: ESR meter
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2018, 07:29:42 AM »
Why are you going to build this project when you already have a tweezer LCR meter?  Doesn't the tweezer meter use a sine wave for excitation?
I'm interested in a circuit without a transformer. Yes, I have almost a sinusoidal signal.
 

Offline tigr

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Re: ESR meter
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2018, 08:33:14 PM »
The project you are planning to build has a couple of banana plugs on the project box connect with ordinary wires inside the box.  Those wires probably have a resistance of several milliohms which will add to the measured ESR unless some method is provided for compensating.  Using a 4 wire connection is the standard way of solving the problem of lead resistance.
All my ESR meters are made in the form of tweezers. In this circuit, the reduction of the resistance of the measuring probes will be solved in a similar way.
 

Offline Lassivv

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Re: ESR meter
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2018, 01:11:06 AM »
I think this topic is nearest my question.

Just thinking what is best budget choice to measure ONLY esr. Not need that transistor, resistor, etc testers. Of course if you guys are that thinkings that price 8-15 transitors/resistor/capacitor/esr testers are accurate enough well i happy take links to good one :)

I thinking that just ESR meters are very much accurate and better reliable result, than that 8dollars cheap "multi" testers. Maybe i be just wrong.

Measuring directly on circuit is very big positive thing.

Can be kit or ready. Price point is about 30-100dollars. And if possible europe shops are better because customs, taxes, postages etc :)

I know only Black one what Eevblog Dave use if i remember right something:  Dick Smith Electronics  but i think that not get anymore and price going with customs, taxes and postages quite high.

This is only one what i finded: http://clientes.netvisao.pt/greenpal/evb1.htm

This looks quite good and get kit version too. Seems better than china clones on ebay, but anyone know is that ones ok?

Not any information is that crash, bad, good or something else :P

I use that meter my hobby. Normally measuring normal 10-35v 100-1000uf elkos and 230-400v 2-40uf elkos. Different repair projects etc.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 01:13:24 AM by Lassivv »
 

Offline kripton2035

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Re: ESR meter
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2018, 03:51:56 AM »
on my repository (web link below in my signature) you have a lot of esr meters to build or buy
just choose the one you want.
the JayDaddy 5 transistors one, or the old poptronix are simple to build, and give accurate results.

Offline tigr

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Re: ESR meter
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2018, 07:45:54 PM »
Not need that transistor, resistor, etc testers. Of course if you guys are that thinkings that price 8-15 transitors/resistor/capacitor/esr testers are accurate enough well i happy take links to good one :)
Resistors can be checked with sufficient accuracy.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 08:37:45 PM by tigr »
 

Offline tigr

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Re: ESR meter
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2018, 09:35:34 PM »
The PCB is already drawn. This is an experimental option. Then I will do as a tweezer. :)
 

Offline nanofrog

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Re: ESR meter
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2018, 12:50:14 AM »
Just thinking what is best budget choice to measure ONLY esr. Not need that transistor, resistor, etc testers. Of course if you guys are that thinkings that price 8-15 transitors/resistor/capacitor/esr testers are accurate enough well i happy take links to good one :)

I thinking that just ESR meters are very much accurate and better reliable result, than that 8dollars cheap "multi" testers. Maybe i be just wrong.
In terms of reading ESR, a dedicated ESR meter is a better choice than a DMM. The main reason is a DMM can mislead you (i.e. make you think it's good when it isn't). They can usually test a wider range of values than a DMM as well. They're good for other things as well, such as measuring track resistance in order to find a fault.

Can be kit or ready. Price point is about 30-100dollars. And if possible europe shops are better because customs, taxes, postages etc :)

I know only Black one what Eevblog Dave use if i remember right something:  Dick Smith Electronics  but i think that not get anymore and price going with customs, taxes and postages quite high.
In the case of Dave's unit, his is a Silicon Chip model (latest).

Given that you're into repair projects, you might want to consider an LCR meter instead. And in the case of ESR, they usually offer multiple excitation frequencies. For example, if you need to test an electrolytic in a linear PSU, you can set the frequency to 100Hz (2 * mains frequency) in order to get accurate results for it's operating conditions. And they also test inductors and capacitors as well.  ;)

FWIW, the DER EE DE-5000 would fit your budget. And if you want it faster than the default method, the increase isn't that much IME. Kits with some test fixtures won't stretch your budget by much at all; say ~$20 over just the meter (example; includes the ground/guard wire, alligator clip fixture, and tweezer fixture).

These can also do 4-wire measurements. Lots of info here in EEVBlog, including teardown photos. Other stuff on YouTube as well. Excitation frequencies are 100Hz, 120Hz, 1kHz, 10kHz, and 100kHz.

If you'll note, the sellers linked are all in Japan and offer free shipping. What I've no clue to, is the customs, duties,... that your government would levy. Perhaps ask the seller to mark it as a gift to minimize/eliminate these fees?  :-//

For disclosure, I do own one of these as do a number of other members (info on great deals is very popular for some reason...  :P). Very nice bit of kit for the money IMHO.

In regard to Tigr's request of a unit sans transformer, the DER EE DE-5000 is such an animal, so you might want to add it to your short list for comparison.

This is only one what i finded: http://clientes.netvisao.pt/greenpal/evb1.htm

This looks quite good and get kit version too. Seems better than china clones on ebay, but anyone know is that ones ok?
It's the same as as the Silicon Chip ESR Mk.2 by Bob Parker linked above. The page you linked even states this is the case, and has a link to Bob's page.  :)
 

Offline tigr

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Re: ESR meter
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2018, 02:24:25 AM »
Given that you're into repair projects, you might want to consider an LCR meter instead. And in the case of ESR, they usually offer multiple excitation frequencies. For example, if you need to test an electrolytic in a linear PSU, you can set the frequency to 100Hz (2 * mains frequency) in order to get accurate results for it's operating conditions. And they also test inductors and capacitors as well.  ;)
You can do it yourself at different frequencies. ;)
 

Offline The Electrician

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Re: ESR meter
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2018, 02:42:24 AM »
Given that you're into repair projects, you might want to consider an LCR meter instead. And in the case of ESR, they usually offer multiple excitation frequencies. For example, if you need to test an electrolytic in a linear PSU, you can set the frequency to 100Hz (2 * mains frequency) in order to get accurate results for it's operating conditions. And they also test inductors and capacitors as well.  ;)
You can do it yourself at different frequencies. ;)

tigr, your posts would be much more useful if you would add more text describing what the pictures you post are illustrating.

What do you mean "...do it yourself".  Are you suggesting that your reader should build their own LCR meter?  Does the picture show an LCR meter that you built yourself?  If so, the tell your readers all about it.  What frequencies does it cover?  How much did it cost you to build it?  Where did you get the plans?  Show a picture of the entire thing.  Tell us what it is measuring and at what frequency.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 04:14:36 AM by The Electrician »
 
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Offline nanofrog

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Re: ESR meter
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2018, 03:41:16 AM »
You can do it yourself at different frequencies. ;)
To what degree are you talking about?  :-//

Based on what I can tell from your latest photo, the item appears to be an LCR (seeing both ESR & C displayed simultaneously). I'm also seeing 1k, which I presume is the test frequency.  And based on every other LCR I'm aware of, it's not infinite; just a handful of choices (i.e. 100, 120, 1k, 10k, 100kHz on affordable models IME).

There are units with a greater range, such as the Wayne Kerr 65120P (120Mhz version). Very nice, but the sticker shock is a tad much as it sells for $30k without any options.  :o

tigr, your posts would be much more useful if you would add more text describing what the pictures you post are illustrating.

What do you mean "...do it yourself".  Are you suggesting that your reader should build their won LCR meter?  Does the picture show an LCR meter that you built yourself?  If so, the tell your readers all about it.  What frequencies does it cover?  How much did it cost you to build it?  Where did you get the plans?  Show a picture of the entire thing.  Tell us what it is measuring and at what frequency.
Agreed.

Posting them right side up would be helpful as well.  :P
 

Offline Svgeesus

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Re: ESR meter
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2018, 03:53:59 AM »
FWIW, the DER EE DE-5000 would fit your budget. And if you want it faster than the default method, the increase isn't that much IME. Kits with some test fixtures won't stretch your budget by much at all; say ~$20 over just the meter (example; includes the ground/guard wire, alligator clip fixture, and tweezer fixture).

That meter says that it does 4-wire measurement, yet the photo shows only three connectors, one of which is for a shield. Are the other two special two-wire connectors with force and sense on the same plug?
 


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