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Offline rebelrider.mikeTopic starter

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Noob plays with transformers
« on: October 12, 2018, 03:29:42 pm »
Hi folks. It's been a while since I've been on this forum, but I've gotten back into playing with electricity lately, and to do some of the stuff I want to do, I'll need some transformers.

For my very first transformer build, I found an autotransformer from a broken UPS. Being a noob, I cut the wire out rather than dismantling the core first and just unwinding it. I still have the wire, but it's now in 20 foot sections. At least I still have the intact spool and core.


Now, when I started this, I knew nothing of transformers or the math behind them, so I did the best I could. To start with, I figured Watts, Volts, and Amps on both sides of the transformer. Watts being the same on both sides. I never did figure out exactly how to estimate the maximum power a core could handle. I found an equation, core area (sq cm) squared = Watts. I still don't think that's quite right, but it's all I could find, so I used it. I came up with about 122W.

With 122W, at 122V, that's 1A on the primary side. I used 22 AWG wire for that side as it can handle 1.2A.
With 122W, at 9.7V, that's 12.7A on the secondary side. That's way more than I want, so I chose 18 AWG wire, as it can handle 3.2A. More than enough to power what I need.
While figuring all this out, I managed to get the core sheets apart so I could rewind the spool.


The number of windings on the primary side was not straightforward to me at all. I finally found an equation for 50/60Hz transformers: 42 / core area (sq cm) = Turns per Volt. This seemed promising as 42 is the answer to life, the universe, and everything. I learned later that this was a very simplified version with several assumptions in it. But my understanding is that you have to have a minimum number of turns per Volt, or the magnetic field will become saturated. This would cause current to start flowing excessively between the Live and Neutral wires, and perhaps trip the circuit breaker. I think that's how it works, anyway.

So, with the equation, I had 42 / 11.1 sq cm = 3.78 turns per Volt. At 122V, the primary would need 462 turns. I did my best to estimate the length of wire I'd need, and came up with 244 feet, so I bought 250 feet. Turns out, I was still about 2 feet short, so I need to come up with a better way to estimate wire length. But it all worked out, and I ended up with a nice neat primary coil. (Which I later wrapped in tape before adding the secondary coil.)


For the secondary winding, I guess I could have used the ratio of Volts, but I already had turns per Volt so I used that. For 9.7V I would need 37 turns. I didn't take inefficiency into account (because I don't know how), and so I ended up with 8.7V once I got the transformer put back together. But it was easy enough to add 4 more turns, and I got 9.6V. Close enough!


Also, I got to play with my new pocket oscilloscope. I've never had one before, and am still learning how it works, but I did get a nice sine wave, plus several numerical values that my multimeter can't do.

After confirming the transformer would actually work, I decided to make some improvements. I got some nuts, bolts, and washers at the hardware store, and a few L brackets to tighten up the core, and give it a way to be mountable. Squeezing the sheets together with the bolts reduced the buzz to the point where I can barely hear it. I also found a really nice power cable with a ground to replace the old lamp cable I was using before.


I had a lot of secondary wire left over, so I used the rest of it to make extra taps in order to have different Voltages to choose from. I wrapped the outside with tape, and squeezed a couple pieces of cardboard between the coil and the outside parts of the core. Just to make sure the wires will never touch the metal.


In addition to the 9.7V I wanted, I also tried to get 12, and 24V. I ended up with 12.8V and 24.7V, which is fine. By using different combinations of taps, I also got 3.1V, 15.1V, and 12.1V. I don't know what I'll use these for, if anything, but there they are. :)  These are all open Voltages, so they drop a little under load, but not by much.

Since building this transformer, I've continued to search, read, and watch videos. I know more now than I did, but not as much as I'd like to. I found a more involved equation for turns per Volt (T/V = 1/(4.44 x 0.0001 x B x CA x f) which tells me I probably had more windings than I needed. I've also heard a rumor that the core doesn't actually have a limit for Watts. It's all dependent on the windings. I don't know if that's true or not. And there's still more websites I haven't read yet. I'll apply all this to my next transformer.
 

Offline timh2870

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Re: Noob plays with transformers
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2018, 03:41:37 pm »
Without doing any math, there's a pretty simple way to find out if you have enough turns on the primary; put a lightbulb in series with your coil. If it lights, then add more turns. Reactive power should cancel out, and all you're left with is the resistive losses of your primary winding and core losses in the iron.
 

Offline exe

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Re: Noob plays with transformers
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2018, 04:06:47 pm »
Just in case, for transformers output voltage is specified under nominal input voltage and full load. Without load output voltage is higher. Sometimes it specified as "regulation", that is ratio (in percents) saying how much voltage is higher when there is no load. Bigger transformers have better regulation. Small ones may be very bad at it.
 

Offline rebelrider.mikeTopic starter

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Re: Noob plays with transformers
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2018, 02:25:35 am »
For my next transformer, I decided I want to build a 1:1 isolation transformer as a safety device while I work on various electrical projects. I found this guy at the local Habitat Store:


It's an autotransformer, so no good as is for isolation. I'll have to rewind it. As I was taking it apart, I found that it has previously been exposed to moisture. The paper wrap is fine, as is the winding, so it probably just sat out in a barn or something for a while. But the core sheets are a mess, and will have to be cleaned up.



I was able to remove all the winding, and will be able to reuse it. The spool is in perfect shape too.


Looking at the wire, I discovered that it is aluminum and not copper. It only looks copper because of the insulation. It is 1.3mm, which works out to about 16 AWG. That would normally support 5.2A current, but since it's aluminum, I'll figure it could handle only 3.2A. I'll do some math later to confirm this.

Anyway, to find the number of primary windings, I'll use the more complicated equation I found. That is Turns/Volt = 1 / (4.44 x 0.0001 x CA x B x f.

f is the frequency of the change in current. In this case 60Hz
B is the maximum flux density measured in Webers/sq m. Or sometimes Gauss. In this case, I'm using the average value for iron/silicon cores. About 1.2 Weber/sq m.
CA is the area of the core. In this case, 4.4cm x 5.1cm = 22.44 sq cm
0.0001 is a conversion factor to make Weber / sq m work with the sq cm of the core.
4.44 is a value derived from calculus that I don't understand. Let's just call it a constant that is good for a transformer using sine waves.

1 / (4.44 x 0.0001 x 22.44sq cm x 1.2 Weber/sq m x 60Hz) = 1.39 T/V

My household Voltage seems to vary from 121V to 123V, so I'll go down the middle and pick 122V for the primary side of the transformer.

122V x 1.39 T/V = 170 Turns.

Normally I'd be shopping for wire at this point and would have to estimate the length. For my last transformer I used the core circumference per turn rather than the spool circumference. I think that is why I came up short when I bought that wire. This time I'll use the spool circumference of 20.6cm. I'll also add 10% extra.

170 Turns x 20.6cm/Turn x 1.1 = 3854cm / 30.48 cm/ft = 126ft.

Another mistake I made last time was not to take into account that the spool will be larger around with the primary winding on it. This would be difficult to figure if I were buying both winding wires at once, but in this case I'm cheating and reusing the old wire. And I've already got the primary wound, so I can measure the new spool circumference: 27.6cm. So for the secondary winding, also 170 Turns, and adding 10% extra:

170 Turns x 27.6cm/Turn x 1.1 = 5163cm / 30.48 cm/ft = 169ft.

Again, I'm cheating with already having the old wire, so I'm not actually measuring the length. After the primary winding, I've still got lots of wire left over, so I'm not worried about having enough. It took a little more effort to get the used wire nice and tight and straight on the spool, but I think I did pretty good.


The covers were dented and had some rust under flaking paint, so I got them cleaned up and did a little body work. I found some old appliance enamel paint and gave them a new coat.


I found some new insulated connectors to use on both sides, and they fit the existing holes perfectly. I even painted one green for ground. The ground will be on the primary side. The secondary, in order to remain isolated, will not have a ground.
 

Offline planet12

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Re: Noob plays with transformers
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2018, 03:48:13 am »
Firstly, good on you for getting stuck into transformers, black magic to most. I've now taught myself to design and make transformers from standard 50Hz iron-core through to >100KHz ferrite ones for SMPS use - understanding the magic is awesome.

A great resource, if you haven't seen them before: http://ludens.cl/Electron/Magnet.html and http://ludens.cl/Electron/trafos/trafos.html

Additionally, a warning: be very careful reusing magnet wire; the insulation is very thin and has a habit of getting fragile with age, making shorted turns / isolation failures more likely.
 

Offline station240

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Re: Noob plays with transformers
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2018, 06:09:26 am »
You can actually buy the yellow tape used on most modern transformers, just search for "polyester tape transformer" and you'll find it.
The tape used for motors looks better though (comes in white).
Can also used Kapton tape, also easy to find.

Also this table I swiped out of an old book, who got it from Magnetics Inc anyway
Code: [Select]
Table 6.1
Wire and Winding Data: Sizes, Areas(a), Resistance, and Current Capacities(b) for
Synthetic Film Insulated Wire(c,d)
Wire  Wire Area (max)(circular mils)
Size                                             Current (mA)
(AWG) Heavy  Triple  Quad            Ohms/1000ft Capacity
8     18,010 18,360  18,960           0.6281      16,510
9     14,350 14,670  15,200           0.7925      13,090
10    11,470 11,750  12,230           0.9987      10,380
11     9,158  9,390  9,821            1.261        8,226
12     7,310  7,517  7,885            1.588        6,529
13     5,852  6,022  6,336            2.001        5,184
14     4,679  4,830  5,112            2.524        4,109
15     3,758  3,894  4,147            3.181        3,260
16     3,003  3,114  3,329            4.020        2,581
17     2,421  2,520  2,704            5.054        2,052
18     1,936  2,025  2,190            6.386        1,624
19     1,560  1,632  1,781            8.046        1,289
20     1,246  1,310  1,436           10.13         1,024
21     1,005  1,063  1,170           12.77           812.3
22       807    853    949           16.20           640.1
23       650    692    778           20.30           510.8
24       524    562    635           25.67           404.0
25       424    458    520           32.37           320.4
26       342    369    424           41.02           252.8
27       272    296    342           51.44           201.6
28       219    240    276           65.31           158.8
29       180    199    231           81.21           127.7
30       144    161    188          103.7            100.0
31       117    132    154          130.9             79.21
32        96.0  110    128          162.0             64.00
33        77.4   90.2  104          205.7             50.41
34        60.8   70.6   82.8        261.3             39.69
35        49.0   57.8   67.2        330.7             31.36
36        39.7   47.6   54.8        414.8             25.00
37        32.5   38.4   44.9        512.1             20.25
38        26.0   31.4   36.0        648.2             16.00
39        20.2   31.4   36.0        846.6             12.25
40        16.0   19.4   22.1      1,079.6              9.61
41        13.0   16.0    -        1,323.0              7.85
42        10.2   13.0    -        1,659.0              6.25
43         8.4   10.2    -        2,143.0              4.84
44         7.3    9.0    -        2,593.0              4.00
 

Offline rebelrider.mikeTopic starter

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Re: Noob plays with transformers
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2018, 03:59:22 am »
I had originally planned to buy new wire, but when I figured the length I'd need, I discovered I don't have the $ for it right now. I will probably rewind it with new wire sometime, as I'd like to have new copper wire, but also a larger gauge so I can use more current.

The home made transformers I've seen seem to work just fine with masking tape, but the yellow polyester stuff would look much sharper. I've got that on my wishlist too. :)

The table of wire gauges, is that for copper or aluminum?

Well, cleaning the iron plates is progressing, but it's awfully tedious. I've got 97 Es to do, and 97 Is. I've gotten all but 30 of each done so far. It is pretty satisfying to see shiny rust-free plates though. Here's a couple of pictures from earlier when I still had most to do:



Later I'll wipe them down with some acetone, and put new varnish on them.

The covers are looking pretty good. They're dry now, and the connectors are installed.


I'm not sure how I want to label them yet. Sharpie, or maybe something a little fancier. Not sure what.

I've been thinking about the possibility of shorts also. One thing I've got in mind is to install a current limiter (light bulb) in the circuit. Another thing would be to see what the resistance is across the two ends of the winding wire. I found the equation to find resistance from resistivity:

R = p x L / A  Resistance (Ohms) = resistivity (Ohm-meters) x Length (meters) / Area (sq meters)

Area is of course, pi x radius squared. And the resistivity of aluminum is 0.0000000265 Ohm-meters.

So the aluminum wire, diameter 1.15mm / 1000 mm/m = 0.00115m / 2 = 0.000575m (radius).

Area = 3.14 x 0.000575m x 0.000575m = 0.000000330625 sq m

Resistance = 0.0000000265 Ohm-meters x 1m / 0.000000330625 sq m = 0.025525869 Ohms.

Since I used a length of 1m, this could also read as 0.025525869 Ohms/m. (Because algebra.) A more useful number would be 0.00025525869 Ohms/cm, or just round it to 0.000255 Ohms/cm.

Earlier I estimated that I've got 3854cm of wire on my primary winding, so 3854cm x  0.000255 Ohm/cm = 0.98 Ohms. My multimeter isn't able to measure past the tenths place for Ohms, but I do get a reading of 1.0 Ohm. So that's about right on! If the resistance was significantly lower, I'd suspect a short. For now though, I'm just jazzed that my math worked out!

Still looking for a way to figure maximum current that can safely be run through aluminum wire. I'm pretty sure it has to do with how much temperature the insulation can handle, and what the temperature increase is on a particular wire from a particular number of Amps. I think I'm getting close to something after reading this article on transformer design:
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Electronics/Transformer_Design

Another thing I might do is start with the transformer's original 1000VA rating and work backward from there. I've done enough thinking for today though.
 

Offline bsfeechannel

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Re: Noob plays with transformers
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2018, 05:18:57 am »
From a noob to another. Never reuse transformer wire. You never know the condition of the insulation. A shorted turn in a transformer is simply catastrophic. You should insulate each winding layer with the appropriate tape. The primary and the secondary must be specially insulated from each other by a thicker layer of tape.

Sometimes it's better to leave the rust on the plates than to have the trouble to polish and varnish them. Rust is a poor conductor anyway.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 05:25:21 am by bsfeechannel »
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Noob plays with transformers
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2018, 05:20:51 am »
Thanks for sharing, interesting thread.  :-+

Questions :

- How did you detach those core sheets without bending or chipping it ?

- Those iron sheets look so new after you cleaned it, how did you do that ?

Offline BravoV

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Re: Noob plays with transformers
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2018, 05:25:34 am »
Without doing any math, there's a pretty simple way to find out if you have enough turns on the primary; put a lightbulb in series with your coil. If it lights, then add more turns. Reactive power should cancel out, and all you're left with is the resistive losses of your primary winding and core losses in the iron.

Add more turns until the bulb stops light up ? Elaborate further please.

Online xavier60

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Re: Noob plays with transformers
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2018, 05:59:52 am »
Cleaning the core laminations will increase eddy current losses, by how much, I don't know.
HP 54645A dso, Fluke 87V dmm,  Agilent U8002A psu,  FY6600 function gen,  Brymen BM857S, HAKKO FM-204, New! HAKKO FX-971.
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Noob plays with transformers
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2018, 08:31:43 am »
Without doing any math, there's a pretty simple way to find out if you have enough turns on the primary; put a lightbulb in series with your coil. If it lights, then add more turns. Reactive power should cancel out, and all you're left with is the resistive losses of your primary winding and core losses in the iron.
Add more turns until the bulb stops light up ? Elaborate further please.

When the core enters saturation the primary turns into a short circuit. The core saturates beyond a certain ampere-turns figure which is proportional to 1/turns2 => to stay below that figure you just have got to keep adding turns.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 10:22:52 am by GeorgeOfTheJungle »
The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.
 

Offline station240

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Re: Noob plays with transformers
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2018, 08:49:02 am »
The table of wire gauges, is that for copper or aluminum?

Well, cleaning the iron plates is progressing, but it's awfully tedious. I've got 97 Es to do, and 97 Is. I've gotten all but 30 of each done so far. It is pretty satisfying to see shiny rust-free plates though.

Yes, the table is for copper.

Couple of links for you on what to re-apply to the E I pieces
https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/what-is-the-clear-plastic-coating-i-see-on-laminations-of-electrical-transformers.134030/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_steel

Ordinary varnish isn't an ideal option, but easy to get.
Perhaps you can find an electric motor rewinder for sourcing the special lamination paint, or cheap end of roll copper.
 

Online xavier60

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Re: Noob plays with transformers
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2018, 09:52:50 am »
For my next transformer, I decided I want to build a 1:1 isolation transformer as a safety device while I work on various electrical projects. I found this guy at the local Habitat Store:
How do you insulate the primary from the secondary windings and provide adequate creepage distance?
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Offline kkkwj

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Re: Noob plays with transformers
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2018, 01:41:21 am »
Wow, what an interesting thread! Thank you for posting it!
 

Offline ArthurDent

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Re: Noob plays with transformers
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2018, 05:56:02 am »
Years ago, when I was a kid, old radios that were thrown out were tube type with power transformers and there was a rating tag on the back so you knew how many watts the transformer was good for. Almost all these radios had tubes with 6.3 volt filaments except for the rectifiers which were generally 5.0 volt filaments. (The really old TVs had much larger transformers as did some industrial test equipment.) If I took all the ‘E’s and ‘I’s out of the transformers then unwound the low voltage secondary filament windings and counted the turns I could calculate the turns per volt needed when I rewound my windings on the existing primary.  The high voltage windings could be unwound without counting because I already had the turns per volts from the low voltage windings I removed so I didn’t need to count a few hundred more turns of wire.

I would leave the insulating stiff paper on top of the primary winding and also save any other insulating paper to reuse. I would anchor the start of my new winding with sturdy fabric tape and evenly wind the required number of turns for my new secondary, generally putting insulating paper between layers, just in case. The wire size I needed could be calculated from knowing how much total current the tube filaments used and that could be found from looking up all the tubes used in a tube manual. Using a wire gauge I could measure the wire size and look up the circular mils for that wire size in a wire table then calculate the number of circular mils per amp. With this information I could use the wire table to calculate the wire size I would need for my winding. Knowing the wattage of the transformer from the rating tag on the radio would tell me if the transformer was large enough for my needs. For instance, if the tag said 50 watts and I wound my secondary carefully I should be able to wind a 25 volt 2 amp winding on the existing primary. 

There was a 16 volume set of ‘Popular Mechanics Do-It-Yourself Encyclopedia’ from the 1960s or 1980s I had that went into detail on winding transformers that I used back then. There is one reference I found on line that probably goes into more detail than you need at:
 
https://www.electronicdesign.com/power/build-your-own-transformer

but is pretty good. As to the rust on the ‘E’s and ‘I’s you had, I would have just brushed the loose flakes off because as others have mentioned, polishing them could increase eddy currents and heating. Generally the better transformers alternate the ‘E’s and ‘I’s rather than put them in clumps. Some transformers do put all the ‘E’s in one side then lay the ‘I’s across the top and weld where they join but I believe that makes for a higher watts-loss design even though it is cheaper to assemble that way.   
 
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Offline rebelrider.mikeTopic starter

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Re: Noob plays with transformers
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2018, 04:56:09 am »
Wow, lots of responses, thanks for the interest folks!

So getting the core sheets off of the spool. The Is popped out pretty easy. I did manage to tear up a couple of the Es. I've hammered them back into shape as best I could, but I don't know if they'll be reusable. As for cleaning, I've been using a scotch bright wheel on a grinder. Takes the rust and old insulation right off without damaging the iron underneath.

As for trying to guess the number of primary turns without math. Once the basic math is learned, it's super easy to run the calculation and get very close to the actual number of turns I'll need. In my humble opinion, way faster than trial and error. Using a light bulb in series is a very good idea though. Keeps a dead short from happening if there are not enough turns on the primary, or if there is a short in the winding. Without some kind of short, the light bulb will act as an ordinary resistor, and not much will happen. If a short occurs, rather than melting something, tripping the breaker, or some other annoyance, the light bulb will simply light up as a short would provide sufficient current to light it up. It's also a convenient signal that something's wrong.

Isolating the secondary from the primary winding is the difference between a "regular" transformer and an autotransformer. The windings share the core, but they are not physically connected to each other. I have no idea what creepage distance is.

As far as re-insulating the plates, I'm not sure what to use yet. I was thinking either some kind of urethane, or maybe trying to make a black oxide layer. I will be alternating the Is and Es as I put it back together. I only have 40 plates left to do out of 194. So I'm going to have to figure this out soon! :)

And thanks everyone for the links. I've read them all. In fact, the "Build Your Own Transformer" article from ElectronicDesign.com is one I'm already familiar with.

I'm pretty convinced now that the power rating of a transformer is only limited by the maximum current that can be run through the wires. And that is more a limitation of the insulation getting too hot than anything else. So yesterday, I did a little experiment. I took a meter of the aluminum winding wire and ran a current through it with a CV CC power supply. One of those really low cost ones that can be found on Amazon: https://smile.amazon.com/KNACRO-Converter-Regulator-Constant-Voltmeter/dp/B01N7CG71M?keywords=CV+CC+power+supply&qid=1539923210&sr=8-38&ref=sr_1_38

Anyway, I slowly turned up the Amps to see when the wire would get hot. I got all the way up to 4.5A before giving up. My little power supply was getting very hot (it has a limit of 5A, and I didn't want to push it) and the wire was just barely maybe getting warmish. I think it may get a little warmer all wound up tight in a transformer, but I'm pretty sure I can get 540W out of it at 120V and be ok. The transformer was originally rated at 1000VA with the same wire. Also, I don't plan to use anywhere near that much power.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the transformer was originally wound for both 110V and 220V, and I'm only winding it for 120V. So I should have plenty of room for larger gauge wire if I decide I need more Amps in the future.

I'm curious about the different winding methods people use. Most DIY transformers I've seen are the same as what I'm doing. Wind the primary closest to the core and wind the secondary on top of the primary. But I've also seen other people wind the primary on the bottom half of the spool, and the secondary on the top half. I've also seen people wind half the primary, then wind the secondary, and then wind the other half of the primary. Like a sandwich. I wonder what the pros and cons are to doing it each way?
 

Offline bsfeechannel

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Re: Noob plays with transformers
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2018, 07:25:30 am »
I'm curious about the different winding methods people use. Most DIY transformers I've seen are the same as what I'm doing. Wind the primary closest to the core and wind the secondary on top of the primary. But I've also seen other people wind the primary on the bottom half of the spool, and the secondary on the top half. I've also seen people wind half the primary, then wind the secondary, and then wind the other half of the primary. Like a sandwich. I wonder what the pros and cons are to doing it each way?

Normally you start with the winding that has the thinnest wires. In a step-down xformer the primary wire is the thinnest. A split bobbin provides better insulation between primary and secondary and lower capacitive coupling. The "sandwich" winding (technically called interleaving) is normally used in output transformers for tube amps. That way you reduce the leakage inductance, which is responsible for limiting the high frequency response of the transformer.
 

Offline The Electrician

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Re: Noob plays with transformers
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2018, 08:19:07 am »
You probably shouldn't have polished the laminations.  Transformer steel is usually coated with a very thin layer of magnesium silicate, called Carlite.
See: http://nikomag-europe.com/index.php/markets/grain-oriented-electrical-steel

Here's another good read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_steel

The C5 coating is Carlite.  The minimum coating (C0) is also called steam oxide; they run the steel through a furnace with exposure to steam.

Also see: https://www.quora.com/How-does-CRGO-steel-reduce-core-loss-in-transformers

You might be better off if you took all the laminations outside, sprayed them with water, and left them for a day or so until they get a little rusty.  :)

Varnishing them will give you a coating that will be so thick that you will not have a good stacking factor--you probably won't be able to get all the laminations back in.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2018, 08:24:44 am by The Electrician »
 
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Offline BradC

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Re: Noob plays with transformers
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2018, 08:29:47 am »
Cleaning the core laminations will increase eddy current losses, by how much, I don't know.

As clean as those are, quite a *lot*. As indicated by The Electrician in the post above, the insulating layer on a core is extremely thin. It's also extremely important. Transformers do not like shorted turns.

I'd wager you'll never get an insulating coating thin enough to get them all back in and not have a shorted turn with any form of applied synthetic coating. If you manage to get a decent oxide coating on there that'll do the job, however I will be seriously impressed. So please don't take this as a "toss it and start over". Just keep us posted on what you are trying and how it's working out. It's all good learning.

 

Offline rebelrider.mikeTopic starter

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Re: Noob plays with transformers
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2018, 06:19:39 pm »
In addition to the rust, I found a thin layer of dull gray coating on the sheets. Some of the sheets were relatively intact, but most were in pretty bad shape, with the coating peeling off and I felt that a new insulative coating on a clean surface would be best. Perhaps this was a mistake, but what's done is done. If I can't fit all the sheets back in, I'll have to compensate by reducing the area of the core in the calculation. So the number of turns needed may increase. Better that than to not have adequate insulation between the sheets.

Sounds like an oxide is the way to go. Black oxide tends to be thinner, tougher, and more stable than the other iron oxides. It's also less permeable to oxygen and so protects the metal better from future oxidation. I'll look into the best way to produce a good oxide layer on the sheets. Hot distilled vinegar comes to mind. I've never actually tried it before, so I've got some reading to do.
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: Noob plays with transformers
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2018, 08:28:30 pm »
Yep, clean them well with diluted muriatic/hydrochloric acid, and it will take no more than half an hour outside under the sun to have them coated in an even, beautiful rust. A steam cleaner may work quite well too.
The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.
 

Offline Ian.M

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Re: Noob plays with transformers
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2018, 09:41:35 pm »
Hot vinegar is usually used to strip blueing and other oxide coatings.
DIY zinc Parkerising in phosphoric acid solution 'loaded' with some zinc, is probably the easiest option, or you could flash rust them as George suggests then boil them in water to convert the rust to black oxide.   Either coating will need stabilising by drying them thoroughly with moderate heat then wiping with a drying oil or well thinned varnish to fill pores in the surface, then wiping off as much as possible of the excess before it dries if you want it to be durable and scratch resistant.   

Beware of light blueing as it can act as a semiconductor so may not have a high enough resistance.
 
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Offline rebelrider.mikeTopic starter

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Re: Noob plays with transformers
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2018, 10:30:28 am »
Finally got all the plates cleaned down to bare metal!

I spent a while looking for ways to get black oxide on the plate, and I think this video pretty much sums up the details pretty well:


I've already started degreasing with acetone. It's what I normally use on metal that I'm about to paint.
Not sure if etching is needed, as I've just run them all on a scotch-brite wheel, but it's easy enough, and I've got the distilled vinegar.
I've got the salt, but I'll have to go get some hydrogen peroxide. Unless I can find some around the house...
And it turns out I've already got a little electric burner, so I won't be doing this in the kitchen, LOL.

I think I will use deionized water for boiling. I've got pretty hard water, and deionized is cheap, even for me. :)
 

Offline bson

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Re: Noob plays with transformers
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2018, 08:20:46 pm »
I'm not sure how I want to label them yet. Sharpie, or maybe something a little fancier. Not sure what.
How about a lettering stencil and black nail polish?  Or a stencil and a sharpie for that matter.
 


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