Author Topic: Once the magic smoke escaped...  (Read 5434 times)

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Offline uweziTopic starter

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Once the magic smoke escaped...
« on: October 07, 2015, 08:13:03 pm »
Look what happened to the control unit of our electron beam evaporator yesterday: the magic smoke escaped from a capacitor, taking with it the insulation of several cables and it even desoldered a thyristor from the bolt which kept it on its heatsink since 1976!  :-BROKE

Luckily - as Dave recently also mentioned in his repair video on the HP 'scope - it was usual at that time to provide the full schematics. And even more amazingly, you can still buy the exact same type of thyristor today! Try that with electronics from the 1990s...

The rewiring and restauration of this unit, however, will probably keep me and a colleague busy for quite a few days to come  :-/O 
 

Offline JoeB83

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Re: Once the magic smoke escaped...
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2015, 08:20:31 pm »
Yikes. What happened to make the cap explode? Or did it just happen?
 

Offline uweziTopic starter

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Re: Once the magic smoke escaped...
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2015, 08:26:40 pm »
Yikes. What happened to make the cap explode? Or did it just happen?

Well, it's 1976 vintage and might have seen some abuse during its days. Of course it was an X2-type cap like it's neighbor and should have failed open... ok, it did at last

This part of the circuit regulates the heating current through a filament. It is driving the primary of a transformer from mains voltage and the transformer gets the voltage down to a couple of volts and the filament current up to 100 A.
 

Offline SaabFAN

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Re: Once the magic smoke escaped...
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2015, 09:07:18 pm »
So about 100A blew up that cap?
This looks like the broken floppy-drive I destroyed with firecrackers when I was a kid :)

Offline uweziTopic starter

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Re: Once the magic smoke escaped...
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2015, 10:21:03 pm »
So about 100A blew up that cap?
This looks like the broken floppy-drive I destroyed with firecrackers when I was a kid :)

No, the 100A are on the secondary side of the transformer, this drives the primary by phase-angle firing. I don't know how much current went through it, but it only blew a 6A fuse.

The diagram states that the wires around are 0.75mm2
 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: Once the magic smoke escaped...
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2015, 12:41:15 am »
You have your work cut out for you.
Hopefully that cap was all that went, (being optimistic )
Sue AF6LJ
 

Offline uweziTopic starter

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Re: Once the magic smoke escaped...
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2015, 07:04:58 am »
Hopefully that cap was all that went, (being optimistic )

Yes, I know that's optimistic - well, I already know that the thyristor also has to be replaced and I bought 2 of them to replace the other one as well. The worst thing is the wiring which keeps kept all the parts connected...  :-BROKE
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Once the magic smoke escaped...
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2015, 09:26:28 am »
Damn! Those Rifa caps get you every time... and make such a mess!  |O

The Rifa X1 cap across the IEC input in my HP3310A went the same way. There was clearly flame because it charred the wiring sleeving above it but it didn't blow the fuse. The same thing happened to the one in my electronic ignition years ago, it burned a big hole in the PCB (leaving the traces hanging in mid air) while it was still operating (very briefly!).

I think that once they crack and absorb moisture they initially try to self heal but that triggers a sort of 'avalanche' self heal until it just catches fire.  :palm:

P.S. You can see it's a Rifa - metal foil label that wraps over the top inside the resin is clearly visible.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 09:33:00 am by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline Pjotr

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Re: Once the magic smoke escaped...
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2015, 11:33:52 am »
Yes that's a Rifa metal-paper cap. Usually indestructible when not severely overloaded/abused.  You cannot say what causes what here and the cap is "guilty". Those wire wound resistors look pretty cooked and can have overheated the thyristor as well.
 

Offline Wolfram

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Re: Once the magic smoke escaped...
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2015, 03:01:11 pm »
Yes that's a Rifa metal-paper cap. Usually indestructible when not severely overloaded/abused.  You cannot say what causes what here and the cap is "guilty". Those wire wound resistors look pretty cooked and can have overheated the thyristor as well.

The cap looks like a Rifa PME271. These are notorious for catching fire: http://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=69128 .
 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: Once the magic smoke escaped...
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2015, 03:15:07 pm »
Yes that's a Rifa metal-paper cap. Usually indestructible when not severely overloaded/abused.  You cannot say what causes what here and the cap is "guilty". Those wire wound resistors look pretty cooked and can have overheated the thyristor as well.

The cap looks like a Rifa PME271. These are notorious for catching fire: http://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=69128 .
Interesting thread, a bit scary to find a 250V cap across 220V mains.  :o ::) :scared: :scared:
Sue AF6LJ
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Once the magic smoke escaped...
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2015, 04:33:42 pm »
Quote
Interesting thread, a bit scary to find a 250V cap across 220V mains.  :o ::) :scared: :scared:

If it's a PME271 then that's an AC rating.... 250V AC @ Class X (for across the line use).

Edit: That means it's not its excuse for failing - Age and resin cracking = moisture ingress. If you see one with any sign of cracking, crazing or bulging it's a replace on sight (...yesterday!  :scared:) )
« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 04:40:54 pm by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline uweziTopic starter

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Re: Once the magic smoke escaped...
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2015, 04:38:16 pm »
That was some interesting input, yes obviously these particular metal-paper capacitors from Rifa are responsible for quite some damage in electronics - Swedish quality from Radioindustrins Fabrikaktiebolag...

First of all, to me the sequence of the events is quite clear and it started from the capacitor, because what is not clear from the pictures I posted is that the board was originally mounted vertically with the thyristor directly above the caps.

Given that probably nobody in 1976 expected this electronics to be still in daily use in 2015 the caps have survived quite well. They are encased in epoxy, and even without cracking some humidity might have diffused into the cap over the years, compromising the self-healing functionality.

When it comes to the voltage rating - these caps are actually not installed over the mains voltage, i.e. not between phase and neutral. But they will be replaced by modern 630V rated caps  ;)

 

Offline Gyro

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Re: Once the magic smoke escaped...
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2015, 05:28:33 pm »
Interestingly PME271 X and Y caps are still available to this day, made by Kemet / EVOX/Rifa. The datasheet indicates " Self-extinguishing UL 94V-0 encapsulation material", probably not something that could be claimed for the old ones (even though they carried the relevant approvals makings).
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: Once the magic smoke escaped...
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2015, 05:50:54 pm »
Quote
Interesting thread, a bit scary to find a 250V cap across 220V mains.  :o ::) :scared: :scared:

If it's a PME271 then that's an AC rating.... 250V AC @ Class X (for across the line use).

Edit: That means it's not its excuse for failing - Age and resin cracking = moisture ingress. If you see one with any sign of cracking, crazing or bulging it's a replace on sight (...yesterday!  :scared:) )

Indeed I get the AC rating, I wonder if the equipment the OP is working on has MOVs. If so they should also be replaced.
Sue AF6LJ
 

Offline uweziTopic starter

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Re: Once the magic smoke escaped...
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2015, 06:00:38 pm »
I wonder if the equipment the OP is working on has MOVs. If so they should also be replaced.

No MOVs - don't worry... Only a couple of fuses.
 

Offline AF6LJ

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Re: Once the magic smoke escaped...
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2015, 06:57:51 pm »
I wonder if the equipment the OP is working on has MOVs. If so they should also be replaced.

No MOVs - don't worry... Only a couple of fuses.
:)
Good.  8)
Sue AF6LJ
 


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