Author Topic: Pick and place machine (the internet told me so!)  (Read 14997 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline hlavac

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 536
  • Country: cz
Re: Pick and place machine (the internet told me so!)
« Reply #75 on: August 15, 2017, 10:25:29 pm »
For cheap, precise, quiet and fast linear axis positioning we could use linear encoder chip like AS5311 with suitable magnetic strip, and use BLDC motor instead of stepper + GT2 belt to create a closed loop servo
Good enough is the enemy of the best.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13694
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: Pick and place machine (the internet told me so!)
« Reply #76 on: August 15, 2017, 10:55:56 pm »
Anyone know any good stepper controller ic's?  ( i'm not talking the bridge drivers, but the actual controllers that do the ramp and velocity control . and i don't want any arduino stuff or software algorithms : i need real ic's )
Essentially a chip where you tell it : go there. And the chip does the rampup, rampdown, velocity control, and corrects for any overshoot. Agilent had those HCTL1101 . or the TMC5130 . anyone know any others ?
Probably rare, at least as an IC rather than a board, as you can do it in software, so any system that needs it can usually run the motion control on the same processor as everything else.
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline C

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1346
  • Country: us
Re: Pick and place machine (the internet told me so!)
« Reply #77 on: August 16, 2017, 01:55:26 am »
Anyone know any good stepper controller ic's?  ( i'm not talking the bridge drivers, but the actual controllers that do the ramp and velocity control . and i don't want any arduino stuff or software algorithms : i need real ic's )
Essentially a chip where you tell it : go there. And the chip does the rampup, rampdown, velocity control, and corrects for any overshoot. Agilent had those HCTL1101 . or the TMC5130 . anyone know any others ?

Look at ST drivers with an SPI connection.
The L6470 device, realized in analog mixed signal technology, is an advanced fully integrated solution suitable for driving two-phase bipolar stepper motors with microstepping. It integrates a dual low RDS(on)DMOS full bridge with all of the power switches equipped with an accurate on-chip current sensing circuitry suitable for non-dissipative current control and overcurrent protection. Thanks to a unique control system, a true 1/128 steps resolution is achieved. The digital control core can generate user defined motion profiles with acceleration, deceleration, speed or target position, easily programmed through a dedicated registers set. All commands and data registers, including those used to set analogue values (i.e. current control value, current protection trip point, deadtime, PWM frequency, etc.) are sent through a standard 5-Mbit/s SPI. A very rich set of protections (thermal, low bus voltage, overcurrent, motor stall) allows the design of a fully protected application, as required by the most demanding motor control applications.

Their are others.
 

Offline jmelson

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2758
  • Country: us
Re: Pick and place machine (the internet told me so!)
« Reply #78 on: August 16, 2017, 03:12:37 am »


Likely because all of the parts that the person has a hand in (does manually) are the ones that take a lot of expensive programming, development & R&D costs.
Expensive programming?  The recent video shows what a very simple machine can do.  My machine has centering jaws that make the positioning of parts more accurate.  There is NO programming involved on small passives.  The CAM system provides the coordinates and rotation for each part, that goes straight to the P&P computer.

But, I don't do one-offs on a P&P machine, it is easy to do those by hand.  After a couple boards, it starts to make sense.

Jon
 

Offline jmelson

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2758
  • Country: us
Re: Pick and place machine (the internet told me so!)
« Reply #79 on: August 16, 2017, 03:18:07 am »
Here is a nice semi-automatic approach. It tells you what to do, and places a little guide for you to precisely put the part in. It even has a part flipper!




$20K...30K really?
Ummm, I set up my P&P in my basement for about $8000.  A big chunk of that was having double doors installed on the basement to accomodate the P&P machine.  I have a very nice Philips CSM84 without vision.  it has 3 nozzles, which I have loaded for small, mid-sized and large parts.  It can do about 3600 parts/hour, except the bigger parts need to go over to the mechanical alignment station that adds a couple seconds.  I can't IMAGINE paying $20K+ for a manual machine!

Jon
 

Offline Kjelt

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6459
  • Country: nl
Re: Pick and place machine (the internet told me so!)
« Reply #80 on: August 16, 2017, 08:22:20 am »
Here is a nice semi-automatic approach. It tells you what to do, and places a little guide for you to precisely put the part in. It even has a part flipper!
I really like that part flipping "flipping station" , that is something simple I want to build or buy online  :-+ 
A different version can be seen here:
https://www.fritsch-smt.de/en/manual-pick-place/features/flipping-station-for-loose-components/

Should be supported with openPNP much more reliable than just vibrating tens of parts and wait till one flips correctly and afterwards placing the superfluous parts back in the tray.
I also like the rotating disc storage compartment but then I would like to have a seperate disk for each project making it really expensive.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 09:05:18 am by Kjelt »
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 26751
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Pick and place machine (the internet told me so!)
« Reply #81 on: August 16, 2017, 09:16:27 am »
Here is a nice semi-automatic approach. It tells you what to do, and places a little guide for you to precisely put the part in. It even has a part flipper!
$20K...30K really?
Ummm, I set up my P&P in my basement for about $8000.  A big chunk of that was having double doors installed on the basement to accomodate the P&P machine.  I have a very nice Philips CSM84 without vision.  it has 3 nozzles, which I have loaded for small, mid-sized and large parts.  It can do about 3600 parts/hour, except the bigger parts need to go over to the mechanical alignment station that adds a couple seconds.  I can't IMAGINE paying $20K+ for a manual machine!
It depends on the purpose. The manual machine from Fritsch is new and doesn't need feeders or a lot of setup (programming, feeders, etc). If you do a lot of small batches of different boards then the setup time and wasted parts due to needing reels will be the dominating factor.
The company I mentioned earlier is probably using a manual machine like the one from Fritsch and their quotation was much lower for a few pieces compared to assemblers who would use an automated pick&place.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online Mechatrommer

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11534
  • Country: my
  • reassessing directives...
Re: Pick and place machine (the internet told me so!)
« Reply #82 on: August 16, 2017, 01:32:26 pm »
Anyone know any good stepper controller ic's?  ( i'm not talking the bridge drivers, but the actual controllers that do the ramp and velocity control . and i don't want any arduino stuff or software algorithms : i need real ic's )
Essentially a chip where you tell it : go there. And the chip does the rampup, rampdown, velocity control, and corrects for any overshoot. Agilent had those HCTL1101 . or the TMC5130 . anyone know any others ?
not a chip, but a board is being discussed here... https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/smart-steppers/msg1281162/#msg1281162.... among mentioned are elmo, omron, panasonic and whatnot. i'm sure you dont mind big pocket price since you mentioned not to have arduino algorithm crap...
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13694
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: Pick and place machine (the internet told me so!)
« Reply #83 on: August 16, 2017, 03:07:24 pm »
Here is a nice semi-automatic approach. It tells you what to do, and places a little guide for you to precisely put the part in. It even has a part flipper!
I really like that part flipping "flipping station" , that is something simple I want to build or buy online  :-+ 
A different version can be seen here:
https://www.fritsch-smt.de/en/manual-pick-place/features/flipping-station-for-loose-components/

Wow that looks seriously over-engineered... Should be easy nowadays to knock something up with a couple of servos & some 3d-printing
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline free_electron

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8515
  • Country: us
    • SiliconValleyGarage
Re: Pick and place machine (the internet told me so!)
« Reply #84 on: August 16, 2017, 03:34:28 pm »

C1 is 100nf and found in tray a8
if it is time to place c1 , the machine moves to a8. you fine position and pick the part using a track pad (position) and a button (drop nozzle and turn on vacuum , lift nozzle.
the arm now moves back to last known position on the pcb. you now spin the part , position it and place it..

This is insane!  What you describe is a fully automated machine being run in manual mode.  WHY?  If you have the capability of running the machine under computer control, why not have it do the board totally automatically from CAD data?

Jon
No because i don't use tape ! my parts are loose.
my hand is no longer steady. tweezers are cumbersome. ( 0402 parts you know ... )
i will do the rotation and fine tuning. ( later that can be handled by machine. initially this is a good setup.

once a board has gone through teach in the machine remembers coordinates for placing. the software can be expanded to use the coordinates from a pick and place file later.

This is just a brain experiment. start with something like this. it gives you the x/y gantry and the pick head. once we got that working we can thinka bout software improvement.

My idea is not to make a fully automated volume machine.
think 10 boards per run , 5x5 cm boards 20 to 30 parts  per board.

I would start simple. get some sliders and steppers
Use hollow axis stepper and a paste dispenser needle for pickup ( or a real pick head. samsung heads are like 20$.
I would use a cheap usb cameras (endoscope cameras) mounted on the pick head. Looks at a 45 degree mirror that has a hole in it ( for the needle )

a joypad allows me to do x-y motions. a rotary dial allows me to spin the part.

NEXT button : start process of next part : stage moves above correct spot in parts tray
 - i fine position stage using joypad and hit the PICK/PLACE button. machine picks part.
 - i hit ok -> next step
 - i hit redo -> machine puts part back down and i can repick a component.
 - i hit reject -> machine drops part in 'reject' bin' and comes back to tray

after 'OK'
 -> move stage to last position over board.
 -> drop head to about 2mm above pcb
 -> i fine tune the rotation ( downward looking image showing part and board ) and x-y and press PICK/PLACE button
 -> machine places part down on pcb

 if
 -> i hit OK -> move back to tray ( next line item)
 -> i hit REDO : lift part of board and allow me to adjust x/y and rotate -> hit place again to finish
 -> i hit reject -> machine moves to reject bin , spits out part and goes back to last tray so i can pick it again

Smart software : upon Place the absolute position is recorded for that line item. so on next pcb the x/y doesnt need to be redone. only rotation

A SKIP button allows me to mark a part as non-install
a QUEUE button allows me to move this line item to the end of the pick program ( i don't want to place this guy right now... )

so i have very few controls
- a rotary dial for theta
- a joypad for x-y

PICK/PLACE button to pick or place a part ( dpeending on what phase we are in )
REDO button to repick or replace
OK button to go to next step
EJECT button to throw away part and retry
SKIP button for non-install
QUEUE button for 'place later'

software and features can be developed later
Gantry style system . two Z steppers running in sync , one X stepper. one Z stepper , one hollow axis theta stepper , one endoscope usb camera side looking at a 45 degree mirror.

these guys seems to have a collection of all that is needed

https://www.robotdigg.com/





« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 04:22:34 pm by free_electron »
Professional Electron Wrangler.
Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Offline Kjelt

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6459
  • Country: nl
Re: Pick and place machine (the internet told me so!)
« Reply #85 on: August 16, 2017, 05:03:52 pm »
Wow that looks seriously over-engineered... Should be easy nowadays to knock something up with a couple of servos & some 3d-printing
If you look at the first video on page two at three quarters they show a simpler version (2nd gen costdown?) that is more plastick and small servo like you mentioned.
 

Offline jmelson

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2758
  • Country: us
Re: Pick and place machine (the internet told me so!)
« Reply #86 on: August 16, 2017, 08:13:13 pm »

No because i don't use tape ! my parts are loose.
my hand is no longer steady. tweezers are cumbersome. ( 0402 parts you know ... )
OK, I have not worked with 0402, and they ARE tiny!  But, I do some 0603 and lots of 0805 parts by hand.  My hands are no longer as steady as they once were.  But, resting the heel of my hand or wrist on something makes them a lot more steady.  A good microscope is CRITICAL!  I have a stereo zoom microscope with relatively long working distance, I couldn't do this stuff without it.
I get practically all my parts on tape, and if I only need a few, i get them on cut tape.
Quote

once a board has gone through teach in the machine remembers coordinates for placing. the software can be expanded to use the coordinates from a pick and place file later.
My commercial, high-end full-auto P&P machine has a teach function, I have NEVER used it, ever!
Quote

My idea is not to make a fully automated volume machine.
think 10 boards per run , 5x5 cm boards 20 to 30 parts  per board.
When I started out with this machine, I did small runs like that, and still do from time to time.  The programming effort for a moderately dense small board was not that great.  I wrote a little C program to read in the P&P file from my CAD/CAM software and convert it to the form the P&P machine used, and then loaded that into the P&P via a serial comm program.  It took me a little while to get the whole thing perfect, but within 2 WEEKS of the machine arriving, I was cranking out boards!  I'd guess that it now takes me 15 minutes to program a board with 100+ parts of 30 or so types.  Mostly, I have to look at the list of parts and decide what feeder location I want them in.  Most used parts go closest to the board, to minimize head travel.  I write a file that tells what parts go in what feeder location, run my converter program and make sure it matched all the parts to a feeder, and then send the output file to the P&P machine.

It takes longer to track down all the parts and load onto feeders, put into machine and makes ure they are all in the right slot.

Jon
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 08:14:45 pm by jmelson »
 

Offline free_electron

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8515
  • Country: us
    • SiliconValleyGarage
Re: Pick and place machine (the internet told me so!)
« Reply #87 on: August 16, 2017, 08:38:15 pm »

No because i don't use tape ! my parts are loose.
my hand is no longer steady. tweezers are cumbersome. ( 0402 parts you know ... )
OK, I have not worked with 0402, and they ARE tiny!  But, I do some 0603 and lots of 0805 parts by hand.  My hands are no longer as steady as they once were.  But, resting the heel of my hand or wrist on something makes them a lot more steady.  A good microscope is CRITICAL!  I have a stereo zoom microscope with relatively long working distance, I couldn't do this stuff without it.
I get practically all my parts on tape, and if I only need a few, i get them on cut tape.
Quote

once a board has gone through teach in the machine remembers coordinates for placing. the software can be expanded to use the coordinates from a pick and place file later.
My commercial, high-end full-auto P&P machine has a teach function, I have NEVER used it, ever!
Quote

My idea is not to make a fully automated volume machine.
think 10 boards per run , 5x5 cm boards 20 to 30 parts  per board.
When I started out with this machine, I did small runs like that, and still do from time to time.  The programming effort for a moderately dense small board was not that great.  I wrote a little C program to read in the P&P file from my CAD/CAM software and convert it to the form the P&P machine used, and then loaded that into the P&P via a serial comm program.  It took me a little while to get the whole thing perfect, but within 2 WEEKS of the machine arriving, I was cranking out boards!  I'd guess that it now takes me 15 minutes to program a board with 100+ parts of 30 or so types.  Mostly, I have to look at the list of parts and decide what feeder location I want them in.  Most used parts go closest to the board, to minimize head travel.  I write a file that tells what parts go in what feeder location, run my converter program and make sure it matched all the parts to a feeder, and then send the output file to the P&P machine.

It takes longer to track down all the parts and load onto feeders, put into machine and makes ure they are all in the right slot.

Jon

my idea is NOT to run production.
it is a semi automatic machine that allows me to assembly MY boards in a quick way.
 no need for tweezers, no need for feeders, no need for tape , no need for a microscope. a small PC  ( or an rPi ) can do the thing.
programming is minimal ( my coding skills are not that great and i am lazy . i could never do a vision recognition system)

i think it would work faster than fully by hand.

it is a man-assisting machine.
Professional Electron Wrangler.
Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Offline C

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1346
  • Country: us
Re: Pick and place machine (the internet told me so!)
« Reply #88 on: August 16, 2017, 09:20:55 pm »
free_electron

  For the next step up from what you have stated, do you really need  a vision recognition system?

If you have a photo of bare board & a current photo from camera.
Then Position is just overlaying the two photos, Would be like a focus step to get great position. Instead of moving focus ring on camera you would be adjusting the X & Y relation of the the two photos.

Over time, you could have a large number of photos to use.

If you added a step where you placed the fiducial, then the software could handle the problem of PC board position.

I see little things with photo( storing & Using) use helping greatly with with what you propose.
For example you said to
 "machine remembers coordinates for placing"
Just by capturing a photo, you could have optical coordinates for placing. This could allow less precise machine coordinates as need would only be to get in fine tune optical position.


 
 

 

Offline free_electron

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8515
  • Country: us
    • SiliconValleyGarage
Re: Pick and place machine (the internet told me so!)
« Reply #89 on: August 18, 2017, 05:01:41 am »
There is still rotation .... the part i pick lays in random angle ...

Professional Electron Wrangler.
Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Offline C

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1346
  • Country: us
Re: Pick and place machine (the internet told me so!)
« Reply #90 on: August 18, 2017, 11:15:02 pm »

On way to pick a part take a photo.
pick up part
position over photo & difference of current photo and photo is part.

If you use the take a photo a lot then things get easer.

You could build a photo map of bare pick & place area.
Adding a tape would let you isolate a tape.
Your parts photo data base lets you position on part in tape.

I see it just building if you use photos.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf