Author Topic: real-world voltage reference?  (Read 41722 times)

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Offline ralphdTopic starter

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #100 on: August 19, 2015, 05:48:46 am »
2.512v is perfectly within spec for the tl431a. All your measurements are consistent with your meter being spot on spec.
Did you bother to calculate 2.495 + .3%?  It's 2.5025.

The .05% REF5050s I ordered should arrive within the next few days, and I'll bet they'll show my meter is at least 0.5% high.
In the mean time, I suggest you start searching for a palatable hat.

I was going by the datasheet.

https://www.fairchildsemi.com/datasheets/TL/TL431.pdf

Maybe you should re-read this thread after a good night's sleep and a strong coffee tomorrow am.  Then you might realize how stupid it is to insist that a Fairchild data sheet is a more reliable source than the actual manufacturer's 0.3% rating.
"The Wing Shing TL431As arrived this week."
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Offline jwm_

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #101 on: August 19, 2015, 05:56:05 am »
2.512v is perfectly within spec for the tl431a. All your measurements are consistent with your meter being spot on spec.
Did you bother to calculate 2.495 + .3%?  It's 2.5025.

The .05% REF5050s I ordered should arrive within the next few days, and I'll bet they'll show my meter is at least 0.5% high.
In the mean time, I suggest you start searching for a palatable hat.

I was going by the datasheet.

https://www.fairchildsemi.com/datasheets/TL/TL431.pdf

Maybe you should re-read this thread after a good night's sleep and a strong coffee tomorrow am.  Then you might realize how stupid it is to insist that a Fairchild data sheet is a more reliable source than the actual manufacturer's 0.3% rating.
"The Wing Shing TL431As arrived this week."

You mean the datasheet that gives even worse bounds on the high end of 2.475V - 2.525V for the grade A version?

http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/257613/WINGS/TL431A.html

    John

Offline ralphdTopic starter

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #102 on: August 19, 2015, 06:25:26 am »
Maybe you should re-read this thread after a good night's sleep and a strong coffee tomorrow am.  Then you might realize how stupid it is to insist that a Fairchild data sheet is a more reliable source than the actual manufacturer's 0.3% rating.
"The Wing Shing TL431As arrived this week."

You mean the datasheet that gives even worse bounds on the high end of 2.475V - 2.525V for the grade A version?

http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/257613/WINGS/TL431A.html

    John

I'll download pdfs from mouser and Digi-key, or a manufacturer site directly, but not some questionable site.

I realize you are not going to admit I likely purchased 0.3% rated TL431s.  You've posted enough on eevblog to suggest you are not a troll, so you're probably a kook.
In either case, I'm sure you'll have an excuse as to how you still right when the 0.05% REF505s confirm my meter is >0.5% high.
Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth. Einstein
 

Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #103 on: August 19, 2015, 06:27:16 am »
I agree and think although somewhat unorthodox batteries parallel is the key, I posted earlier on this but went back later and deleted it thinking it was pointless anyway, but after a few tests it is relevant.

I also posted about the Energiser Ultimate Lithium Batteries (non rechargeable) being consistently at 1.80 volts across a number of meters and factoring in the plus and minus count offset of each meter when using a linear power supply at 2.00 volt for reference.

Tested two packets of four AA's total of 8 brand new unused batteries and although this was not a lab test by any means I was satisfied with the results, maybe others could post on these batteries with better test gear than I have, Keithley 2000, Fluke 189, Keysight U1272a and a host of others.

These batteries are not cheap at $15 AUD for a pack of four and I had a specific application for them in a problematic camera but thought a few comparison tests were in order prior to putting them to use, I am now looking at a proper voltage reference and am still undecided but thats another ongoing thread.

And on flat batteries trying to calculate the maths formula for parallel batteries, at the time I just didn't get it, someone else will know or it is simply a variable due to the individual batteries internal resistance.

Flat Battery A   1.25
Flat Battery B   1.10
Parallel Result  1.15



« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 02:07:58 pm by Muttley Snickers »
 

Offline ralphdTopic starter

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #104 on: August 19, 2015, 06:30:31 am »
remembering what blackdog did to the LT1021,

But according to John, averaging (a voltage reference) does not give more accuracy.  John can't be wrong, can he?  :-)
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Offline ralphdTopic starter

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #105 on: August 19, 2015, 06:37:57 am »
I also posted about the Energiser Ultimate Lithium Batteries (non rechargeable) being consistently at 1.80 vols across a number of meters and factoring in the plus and minus count offset of each meter when using a linear power supply at 2.00 volt for reference.

I'd pick up a couple to test the theory, but they are $13 for a pack of 2 AAA at the local wally world...
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Offline jwm_

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #106 on: August 19, 2015, 06:44:17 am »
Maybe you should re-read this thread after a good night's sleep and a strong coffee tomorrow am.  Then you might realize how stupid it is to insist that a Fairchild data sheet is a more reliable source than the actual manufacturer's 0.3% rating.
"The Wing Shing TL431As arrived this week."

You mean the datasheet that gives even worse bounds on the high end of 2.475V - 2.525V for the grade A version?

http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/257613/WINGS/TL431A.html

    John

I'll download pdfs from mouser and Digi-key, or a manufacturer site directly, but not some questionable site.

I realize you are not going to admit I likely purchased 0.3% rated TL431s.  You've posted enough on eevblog to suggest you are not a troll, so you're probably a kook.
In either case, I'm sure you'll have an excuse as to how you still right when the 0.05% REF505s confirm my meter is >0.5% high.

I never said your meter was definitely not high.

I said nothing you posted _yet_ supports that conclusion, it is consistent with an in spec meter and a meter that is high by that amount and perhaps (depending on your meters published specs) one that is low by some percent.

You said yourself your tl431s were _not_ stated to be 0.3% yet others listed were. if they actually were 0.3%, why would they not advertise that?

0.3% is a super high quality tl431, grade double A (also from wing shing) are only 0.5%. wing shing makes at least 4 grades of the chip, they are probably not going to accidentally sell the much more expensive one and not mention it in the listing.

Again, I am really unclear why you seem to be upset at this info, voltage references are great, and the ref5050 is a fine one and you may find your meter to be high or low, but you have not done so yet and averaging a bunch of tl431s isn't necesarily going to help.

 There are many manufacturing methods for these chips, sometimes it is aim for the middle and bin appropriately, other times it is make them high (or low) and laser trim them down to within the spec. They don't go any further than trimming to just within the specified bounds. These will not be normally distributed around the specified voltage so the averaging trick won't work in general.

I'm not saying this to be confrontational, your meter may be high, but it would be quite unusual for it to be out of spec new out of the box and your tests so far are not conclusive.

Offline jwm_

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #107 on: August 19, 2015, 06:55:06 am »

I'll download pdfs from mouser and Digi-key, or a manufacturer site directly, but not some questionable site.

I realize you are not going to admit I likely purchased 0.3% rated TL431s.  You've posted enough on eevblog to suggest you are not a troll, so you're probably a kook.
In either case, I'm sure you'll have an excuse as to how you still right when the 0.05% REF505s confirm my meter is >0.5% high.

Since you don't want to look at the data sheet yourself, Here it is straight from wing shing along with chip marking info for the different grades. Again, I am not being confrontational or even necessarily disagreeing with you, i am curious what the results are myself. I mean, a cheap source of miscataloged 0.3% references would be great, I'd pick up a hundred myself.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 07:12:11 am by jwm_ »
 

Offline Gyro

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #108 on: August 19, 2015, 09:50:20 am »
Quote
I'll download pdfs from mouser and Digi-key, or a manufacturer site directly, but not some questionable site.

I realize you are not going to admit I likely purchased 0.3% rated TL431s.  You've posted enough on eevblog to suggest you are not a troll, so you're probably a kook.


So you've purchased Wing Shing parts from an Aliexpress seller and you're comparing them with the datasheet for Fairchild manufactured parts available from Mouser and Digikey? That's actually quite touching, you've restored my faith in the fundamental innocence of humanity.  :'(

Sorry, couldn't resist  :-[  but I think that, on balance, I would probably advise using the Wing Shing published ordering information values as jwm_ posted.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 09:55:28 am by Gyro »
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Offline jwm_

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #109 on: August 19, 2015, 10:40:31 am »
remembering what blackdog did to the LT1021,

But according to John, averaging (a voltage reference) does not give more accuracy.  John can't be wrong, can he?  :-)

What? of course I can be wrong. So can you, so can anyone. But it just so happens that there is an objective reality that trumps us both regardless.

You can average voltage references of course and get the average of the references, but the average of many inaccurate references is still inaccurate unless you make a further asumption that the values have a gaussian distribution around the nominal value which in general is not true. Now, you can increase precision and stability by combining references in clever ways, but not accuracy unless you use a more accurate reference to characterize yours to begin with.

when a datasheet says a value is 1% accurate, it does not mean that the values are centered and scattered about the nominal value, it just means they are within one percent of the value, _nothing else_. In fact, with many manufacturing/trimming techniques, it is actually extremely unlikely the distribution will be centered. This is a common misconception, so much so that dave actually made two videos on the subject. The concluding one is here http://www.eevblog.com/2011/11/14/eevblog-216-gaussian-resistor-redux/

a few thousand one percent resistors and the average? 0.35% below the stated value, and that is perfectly fine because it is within 1%.

I am not saying this to be right, i am saying it because _i have been bitten_ by assuming things that feel intuitive but are not actually guarenteed by the datasheet (and i'm sure others here have too). It is an easy trap to fall into and I don't want others to do so and this particular one is fairly common (hence dave's videos).

Your meter may be high or low or spot on, but the tl431a test is not definitive yet. You will know a lot more once your ref5050 comes in.

Offline ralphdTopic starter

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #110 on: August 19, 2015, 01:12:50 pm »
I never said your meter was definitely not high.

I said nothing you posted _yet_ supports that conclusion, it is consistent with an in spec meter and a meter that is high by that amount and perhaps (depending on your meters published specs) one that is low by some percent.

So you're already moving the goalposts from your original statement: "All your measurements are consistent with your meter being spot on spec."
If you bothered to read the full thread, it's not just the tl431a's that suggest my meter is high, the alkaline battery measurements and the SR43 battery measurements suggest that as well.  Yet you seem to think that my >10yr old "Mastercraft" CAD$20 meter is a more reliable reference than a sample of 11 new (2015 mrf date) TL431As.  :palm:

Quote
You said yourself your tl431s were _not_ stated to be 0.3% yet others listed were. if they actually were 0.3%, why would they not advertise that?

0.3% is a super high quality tl431, grade double A (also from wing shing) are only 0.5%. wing shing makes at least 4 grades of the chip, they are probably not going to accidentally sell the much more expensive one and not mention it in the listing.
The cheapest 100-lot 431's on Aliexpress that I can find right now are CJ431 Jiangsu Changjiang SOT-23 0.5% for 133c.  I've also seen another brand (AMG?) similarly-priced (~1.5c ea).  So we seem to have 2 competitors under-cutting Wing Shing's pricing for 0.5% 431's.  I've seen old photos of WS 431A parts with date codes of 2008, so they've been making them for at least 7 years, and I'd say probably even more than 10.  If 10 years ago they could reliably produce 0.5% parts, it should not be a surprise if they now can reliably produce 0.3% parts.  It seems quite sensible to me that they'd update there production testing to bin for 0.3% and 1%, and to save money, stamp them all TL431A.  For those that pass 0.3%, simply put a sticker on the box along with the batch numbers.  Re-writing and translating the datasheet is an unnecessary cost.

Quote
I'm not saying this to be confrontational, your meter may be high, but it would be quite unusual for it to be out of spec new out of the box and your tests so far are not conclusive.

I see another excuse in the making, "You mislead me to think that your meter was new..."
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Offline ralphdTopic starter

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #111 on: August 19, 2015, 01:24:03 pm »
Here it is straight from wing shing along with chip marking info for the different grades. Again, I am not being confrontational or even necessarily disagreeing with you, i am curious what the results are myself. I mean, a cheap source of miscataloged 0.3% references would be great, I'd pick up a hundred myself.

See my last post for why it's easier for the mrf to add a sticker on the boxes instead of updating their datasheet and stamping.

They're 146c.   If you get a batch that are off by >3%, then you can prove I just got lucky.  If they're within 0.3%, that doesn't help your argument, but at least you'll have a cheap source of 0.3% references.
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-NEW-100PCS-TL431-TL431A-TO-92-Silicon-Transistors-triode-transistor/32328977920.html
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Offline jwm_

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #112 on: August 19, 2015, 08:33:21 pm »
I never said your meter was definitely not high.

I said nothing you posted _yet_ supports that conclusion, it is consistent with an in spec meter and a meter that is high by that amount and perhaps (depending on your meters published specs) one that is low by some percent.

So you're already moving the goalposts from your original statement: "All your measurements are consistent with your meter being spot on spec."


What? this is exactly the same statement.

measurements can be consistent with more than one thing that is why I said you cannot conclude anything about your meter yet. They are consistent with the meter being on spec because the measured values are all within the tolerance of the wing shing TL431A part you specified so those measurements can be spot on. They are also consistent with it being off the nominal value by 0.5% because the TL431A is a 1% part so could be that far in either direction.

That you cannot in general average a bunch of 1% parts to get a more accurate reading is also well known and empirically tested in daves video.

Now, you may have 0.3% parts, or may not. But when you say wing shing TL431A I can only assume wing shings data on their TL431A part is accurate rather than suppositions from an aliexpress listing, in any case, wing shings official specs are all that matters for making engineering decisions rather than a batch that happened to be 0.3%. Also, no matter what the alibaba listing says, I'd say wing shings datasheet trumps it.

Quote
If you bothered to read the full thread, it's not just the tl431a's that suggest my meter is high, the alkaline battery measurements and the SR43 battery measurements suggest that as well.  Yet you seem to think that my >10yr old "Mastercraft" CAD$20 meter is a more reliable reference than a sample of 11 new (2015 mrf date) TL431As.  :palm:

Look, this is metrology. specifications mean very precise things and the conclusions you can reach are well definied. As an engineer, you have to assume the worst. 1% means 1% out in the opposite direction. battery chemistry is so variable (the mercury cell being an unusual exception, my keithley electrometer uses one as its voltage standard, still spot on after >20 years) you cannot definitively make decisions based on it. Like you derate capacitor voltages because i may have the worst batch of the lot and my design might encounter some crazy transients.

In spec for a meter does not mean at its nominal value, it means within 0.1% 1% or whatever the meter guarentees. When a meter guarentees 1% accuracy, it doesn't mean they were only able to trim it within 1%, of course they could trim it to be spot on, on that day, in that lab. but if they know the parts have a 1% drift over temperature range or expected age, or that their calibration meter is only good for 1% then they rate it as 1% accurate so that is stays within spec during its lifetime. When you calibrate a 1% meter that is at 0.9% off, they don't twist the knob back to 0% because that is in spec.

I am not sure why you think these general engineering practices are somehow contrary to what you say. It does not _matter_ whether your meter is on or off for these statements to be true or not. That you cannot conclude _definitively_ (not probably) it is off by 0.5% with a 1% part when the measurements are within the 1% margin (even averaged, if they have not been characterized) is, well, pretty obvious.

Again, I have to go by manufacturer data sheets and part numbers as specified. Once you get your ref, you will be able to characterize your tl431s and then say definitively how far out your meter is (up to the accuracy of the ref5050)

Quote
I see another excuse in the making, "You mislead me to think that your meter was new..."

An excuse for what, your measurements _are_ consistent with an in spec meter for TL431As as speced by the manufacturer. They are also consistent with a 0.5% off amount. Our statements are compatible. It would surprise me somewhat less that your meter is out of spec since it is older, but that doesn't mean the original observation that you cannot conclude definitively yet is false.

There are many people reading this forum that have to build things that work without relying on probably getting 0.3% parts marked 1% time after time, or that like or need to be _certain_ of the tolerances of their measurements are finitely bounded by a known number.

On an engineering board, where we constantly have to take into account _worst case_ (but in spec) scenarios day in and day out, and run into horribly expensive or dangerous failures when someone doesn't take into account the possibility that your 1% parts might actually all be 1% out the wrong way or other allowed things then it is natural for these concerns to come up.

I was trying to be helpful by bringing attention to a conclusion that did not yet have enough evidence, the same as I do for design reviews where I am paid to notice these things before they become issues, or become the subject of an audit on who dropped the ball on specing parts properly. Even if you don't seem to get what my statement actually means, and why it is consistent with yours, Consider it good advice for the community and an incidental benefit of this thread.

Offline ralphdTopic starter

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #113 on: August 20, 2015, 12:40:06 am »
I never said your meter was definitely not high.

I said nothing you posted _yet_ supports that conclusion, it is consistent with an in spec meter and a meter that is high by that amount and perhaps (depending on your meters published specs) one that is low by some percent.

So you're already moving the goalposts from your original statement: "All your measurements are consistent with your meter being spot on spec."


What? this is exactly the same statement.

Ahh, now for the straw man logical fallacy argument.  I stated, "The 2.512 measured vs 2.495 spec voltage suggests my meter is high by 0.68%."

You promptly pipe in claiming I'm wrong, providing lots of argument and evidence that my observations do not conclusively prove the meter is high by that amount (which is correct), thereby defeating the straw man that you created.

Your latest post seems to be an attempt to twist what you said into my observations being consistent with both possibilities of my meter being correct and my meter being accurate.  But if that's really what you meant in the first place, then a logical and direct person would have said:
"Your meter certainly could be high, but it is still possible that it may be accurate (within 0.1%).   You won't know for sure until you test with the REF5050."
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Offline ralphdTopic starter

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #114 on: August 21, 2015, 02:23:44 pm »
I found the photo of a crate of WS TL431 with the 0.3% rating.
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Offline Macbeth

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #115 on: August 21, 2015, 03:09:21 pm »
Hey, theres also these 0.3% devices

Somebody is going to tell me my Aliexpress LTZ1000ACH's are fakes now, I betcha!
 

Offline technix

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #116 on: August 21, 2015, 08:13:42 pm »
The original primary voltage reference was standard cell, which is a chemical battery that contains mercury. Then with superconductivity and quantum mechanics the new primary voltage reference is a superconducting Josephson junction with an input of a certain frequency.

Electrical mains actually can be a decent voltage and frequency standard if you are not living in a place that usually have brownouts. A small transformer will allow you to use it in lower voltage scenarios.

If you count semiconductor components not originally intended to be used as a voltage reference, any diode, when in forward bias with relatively stable current, can be used as a makeshift voltage standard. In a discrete linear regulator design I know of the overcurrent protection circuit requires a 1.5V Zener diode, and the designer decided to get away without the Zener and used a red LED with a forward voltage of 1.5V instead, serving as a voltage reference and a overcurrent indicator light at the same time.
 

Offline ralphdTopic starter

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #117 on: August 21, 2015, 08:34:08 pm »
Electrical mains actually can be a decent voltage and frequency standard if you are not living in a place that usually have brownouts. A small transformer will allow you to use it in lower voltage scenarios.

Although most utilities maintain long-term average frequency at 50/60Hz, I'm not aware of utilities that have strict standards for voltage.  In North America I've seen from ~117V to ~124V.  Even if you have a stable mains voltage, you have to make sure there are no large loads active.  A 5500W electric water heater will likely cause the voltage in the whole house to drop at least a few tenths of a volt.  A 1200W hair dryer on the same 14/2 circuit can will cause a drop of >1V unless the length is unusually short.
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Offline ralphdTopic starter

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #118 on: August 21, 2015, 08:46:09 pm »
I tried to crack open the to92 to look at the die like Ken did:
http://www.righto.com/2014/05/reverse-engineering-tl431-most-common.html
I was able to separate the die from the anode plate, but it only exposed the back side of the die.  It looked rectangular; ~1x0.6mm vs. the more square looking die for the TI-labeled parts Ken had.
Trying to separate the plastic from the front of the die ended up destroying it.  And since I don't have a microscope (just a magnifying glass), I doubt I'd be able to identify much on the die anyway.
If the WS parts are fuse-trimmed like the TI ones, there should be more than one peak in the distribution of voltages.  I may test the whole 100 lot I received and plot the voltages to see what patterns are evident.
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Offline ralphdTopic starter

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #119 on: August 21, 2015, 09:10:06 pm »
I just tested 14 more of the WS TL431As with my crappy tire meter and 24C ambient:
2.512, 2.512, 2.510, 2.514, 2.517, 2.510, 2.512, 2.506, 2.516, 2.515, 2.514, 2.517, 2.515, 2.516
mean: 2.5133, SD: .0032
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Offline kwass

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #120 on: August 22, 2015, 12:31:11 am »
I also posted about the Energiser Ultimate Lithium Batteries (non rechargeable) being consistently at 1.80 vols across a number of meters and factoring in the plus and minus count offset of each meter when using a linear power supply at 2.00 volt for reference.

I'd pick up a couple to test the theory, but they are $13 for a pack of 2 AAA at the local wally world...

I happen to have a large number of unused Energizer Lithium AA (they've changed the name several times over the years -- ultimate, advanced, etc. -- but I think that they're all pretty much identical in performance) cells spanning about 10 years of manufacturing dates.  I just sampled 20 of them and found voltages in a fairly narrow range from 1.8191 to 1.8275 using a calibrated 34401.  So they do seem to make for a good 1.82 voltage reference when unused.  Storage of these and testing was all done a pretty constant 21 degrees C, so I have no idea how sensitive these are to temperature changes.


-katie
 

Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #121 on: August 22, 2015, 01:19:00 am »
These pictured below are what I referred to and as they were recently at a discounted price I went back and bought another two packets, an expensive round about reference really but that is not what it's about.

And with 9X longer life if we add one of those new sleeve thingos with an additional 8X, thats 17X.... :bullshit:

Thanks for the measurements, I will try and keep tabs on everyone's numbers... :-+

Muttley
 

Offline ralphdTopic starter

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #122 on: August 22, 2015, 01:36:56 am »
I also posted about the Energiser Ultimate Lithium Batteries (non rechargeable) being consistently at 1.80 vols across a number of meters and factoring in the plus and minus count offset of each meter when using a linear power supply at 2.00 volt for reference.

I'd pick up a couple to test the theory, but they are $13 for a pack of 2 AAA at the local wally world...

I happen to have a large number of unused Energizer Lithium AA (they've changed the name several times over the years -- ultimate, advanced, etc. -- but I think that they're all pretty much identical in performance) cells spanning about 10 years of manufacturing dates.  I just sampled 20 of them and found voltages in a fairly narrow range from 1.8191 to 1.8275 using a calibrated 34401.  So they do seem to make for a good 1.82 voltage reference when unused.  Storage of these and testing was all done a pretty constant 21 degrees C, so I have no idea how sensitive these are to temperature changes.

That is a pretty narrow range; 1.8233 +- 0.23%.
Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth. Einstein
 

Offline Flenser

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #123 on: August 22, 2015, 06:52:23 am »
I have 4 unopened packs of 2xAA Energizer Ultimate Lithium. I measured these using my Brymen BM257.

Use-by Date 03-2026
1.826
1.825

Use-by Date 03-2028
1.806
1.810

Use-by Date 03-2028
1.806
1.806

Use-by Date 03-2028
1.805
1.806
 

Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #124 on: August 22, 2015, 07:37:29 am »
Thanks Flenser for the measurements and as the comparisons may or may not go anywhere we probably should have a proper starting point and document such as MS Excel so we may generate graphs and do relative calculations, so possibly a running XLS file with DD:MM:YY - HH:MM which I think is the forums standard. Those that don't have XL could simply post some numbers and others could update the file accordingly.

Now to be honest my computer, photography, spelling, grammar and mathematical skills are somewhat really bloody rubbish so although I am more than willing to collate the submitted data out of respect for other members it probably should be done by others more versed and experienced, I will stuff it up.

Also should we consider the submission of two exactly the same random batteries measured in parallel which from my tests does make a huge difference on the averaging and this could well be the grail we all are seeking.

I am guided by you fellows.... :-+

Muttley

« Last Edit: August 22, 2015, 08:38:06 am by Muttley Snickers »
 


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