Author Topic: real-world voltage reference?  (Read 41717 times)

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Online Gyro

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2015, 06:03:06 pm »
No, sorry - there will always be two junctions, even in unintentional (eg. the connections to the op-amp pins.

If you could generate a voltage/current just by immersing a junction in cold water then you would have discovered the secret of free energy  ;D

For the Seebeck effect (thermocouple) to work there must always be a temperature difference between two junctions - Google is your friend (I hate saying that  |O).

The voltage produced is also very small so the gain of the op amp would need to be large and accuracy difficult. As I say, not impossible (say with pure iced water and pure boiling water) but really not a practical way of producing a voltage reference, compared to using an ACTUAL voltage reference.
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline Kalvin

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2015, 06:08:57 pm »
If you could generate a voltage/current just by immersing a junction in cold water then you would have discovered the secret of free energy  ;D

You are correct, I just lost it.  :palm:
 

Online Gyro

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2015, 06:18:42 pm »
Happens to me too  :)

A shame, if it had worked you would have been in the right part of the world to exploit it!  ;D
« Last Edit: July 25, 2015, 06:20:54 pm by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2015, 06:36:59 pm »
What about a thermocouple in ice water and another one in boiling water? Of course, it would have to be distilled water to be accurate.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Online IanB

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2015, 07:00:14 pm »
1.6V is about right for a fresh alkaline.

Anyone with a 0.1% calibrated meter tried measuring them?  I did a couple of google searches and couldn't find anything.

A sample of a few unused alkaline cells gave measured voltages between 1.61 and 1.59 depending on age.

I seem to recall that a fresh unused Zinc Chloride 9 V battery measures almost spot on 10.0 V, but I don't have one to hand to measure right now.

Quote
Now, I think I did see some thorough voltage testing done on Sanyo Eneloops.  I have some AA HR6 Eneloops I could top up, let the charge settle for a day, then compare my voltage readings with published ones...

Don't do this. An NiMH cell is the most unstable, unpredictable voltage source going. There is absolutely no way to know the voltage without measuring it.
 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2015, 07:05:45 pm »
What about a thermocouple in ice water and another one in boiling water? Of course, it would have to be distilled water to be accurate.
Surely an extra thermocouple is redundant and suffers the problem of having to cold junction compensate.

Much better to have the one thermocouple with one junction in the ice water and the other in the boiling.

 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2015, 07:10:31 pm »
4.096mV using a K type thermocouple according to NIST

Code: [Select]
ITS-90 Table for type K thermocouple
 °C      0     -1     -2     -3     -4     -5     -6     -7     -8     -9    -10
                               Thermoelectric Voltage in mV

-270 -6.458
-260 -6.441 -6.444 -6.446 -6.448 -6.450 -6.452 -6.453 -6.455 -6.456 -6.457 -6.458
-250 -6.404 -6.408 -6.413 -6.417 -6.421 -6.425 -6.429 -6.432 -6.435 -6.438 -6.441

-240 -6.344 -6.351 -6.358 -6.364 -6.370 -6.377 -6.382 -6.388 -6.393 -6.399 -6.404
-230 -6.262 -6.271 -6.280 -6.289 -6.297 -6.306 -6.314 -6.322 -6.329 -6.337 -6.344
-220 -6.158 -6.170 -6.181 -6.192 -6.202 -6.213 -6.223 -6.233 -6.243 -6.252 -6.262
-210 -6.035 -6.048 -6.061 -6.074 -6.087 -6.099 -6.111 -6.123 -6.135 -6.147 -6.158
-200 -5.891 -5.907 -5.922 -5.936 -5.951 -5.965 -5.980 -5.994 -6.007 -6.021 -6.035

-190 -5.730 -5.747 -5.763 -5.780 -5.797 -5.813 -5.829 -5.845 -5.861 -5.876 -5.891
-180 -5.550 -5.569 -5.588 -5.606 -5.624 -5.642 -5.660 -5.678 -5.695 -5.713 -5.730
-170 -5.354 -5.374 -5.395 -5.415 -5.435 -5.454 -5.474 -5.493 -5.512 -5.531 -5.550
-160 -5.141 -5.163 -5.185 -5.207 -5.228 -5.250 -5.271 -5.292 -5.313 -5.333 -5.354
-150 -4.913 -4.936 -4.960 -4.983 -5.006 -5.029 -5.052 -5.074 -5.097 -5.119 -5.141

-140 -4.669 -4.694 -4.719 -4.744 -4.768 -4.793 -4.817 -4.841 -4.865 -4.889 -4.913
-130 -4.411 -4.437 -4.463 -4.490 -4.516 -4.542 -4.567 -4.593 -4.618 -4.644 -4.669
-120 -4.138 -4.166 -4.194 -4.221 -4.249 -4.276 -4.303 -4.330 -4.357 -4.384 -4.411
-110 -3.852 -3.882 -3.911 -3.939 -3.968 -3.997 -4.025 -4.054 -4.082 -4.110 -4.138
-100 -3.554 -3.584 -3.614 -3.645 -3.675 -3.705 -3.734 -3.764 -3.794 -3.823 -3.852

 -90 -3.243 -3.274 -3.306 -3.337 -3.368 -3.400 -3.431 -3.462 -3.492 -3.523 -3.554
 -80 -2.920 -2.953 -2.986 -3.018 -3.050 -3.083 -3.115 -3.147 -3.179 -3.211 -3.243
 -70 -2.587 -2.620 -2.654 -2.688 -2.721 -2.755 -2.788 -2.821 -2.854 -2.887 -2.920
 -60 -2.243 -2.278 -2.312 -2.347 -2.382 -2.416 -2.450 -2.485 -2.519 -2.553 -2.587
 -50 -1.889 -1.925 -1.961 -1.996 -2.032 -2.067 -2.103 -2.138 -2.173 -2.208 -2.243

 -40 -1.527 -1.564 -1.600 -1.637 -1.673 -1.709 -1.745 -1.782 -1.818 -1.854 -1.889
 -30 -1.156 -1.194 -1.231 -1.268 -1.305 -1.343 -1.380 -1.417 -1.453 -1.490 -1.527
 -20 -0.778 -0.816 -0.854 -0.892 -0.930 -0.968 -1.006 -1.043 -1.081 -1.119 -1.156
 -10 -0.392 -0.431 -0.470 -0.508 -0.547 -0.586 -0.624 -0.663 -0.701 -0.739 -0.778
   0  0.000 -0.039 -0.079 -0.118 -0.157 -0.197 -0.236 -0.275 -0.314 -0.353 -0.392

 °C      0     -1     -2     -3     -4     -5     -6     -7     -8     -9    -10

 ITS-90 Table for type K thermocouple
 °C      0      1      2      3      4      5      6      7      8      9     10 
                               Thermoelectric Voltage in mV
 
   0  0.000  0.039  0.079  0.119  0.158  0.198  0.238  0.277  0.317  0.357  0.397
  10  0.397  0.437  0.477  0.517  0.557  0.597  0.637  0.677  0.718  0.758  0.798
  20  0.798  0.838  0.879  0.919  0.960  1.000  1.041  1.081  1.122  1.163  1.203
  30  1.203  1.244  1.285  1.326  1.366  1.407  1.448  1.489  1.530  1.571  1.612
  40  1.612  1.653  1.694  1.735  1.776  1.817  1.858  1.899  1.941  1.982  2.023
 
  50  2.023  2.064  2.106  2.147  2.188  2.230  2.271  2.312  2.354  2.395  2.436
  60  2.436  2.478  2.519  2.561  2.602  2.644  2.685  2.727  2.768  2.810  2.851
  70  2.851  2.893  2.934  2.976  3.017  3.059  3.100  3.142  3.184  3.225  3.267
  80  3.267  3.308  3.350  3.391  3.433  3.474  3.516  3.557  3.599  3.640  3.682
  90  3.682  3.723  3.765  3.806  3.848  3.889  3.931  3.972  4.013  4.055  4.096
 
 100  4.096  4.138  4.179  4.220  4.262  4.303  4.344  4.385  4.427  4.468  4.509
 110  4.509  4.550  4.591  4.633  4.674  4.715  4.756  4.797  4.838  4.879  4.920
 120  4.920  4.961  5.002  5.043  5.084  5.124  5.165  5.206  5.247  5.288  5.328
 130  5.328  5.369  5.410  5.450  5.491  5.532  5.572  5.613  5.653  5.694  5.735
 140  5.735  5.775  5.815  5.856  5.896  5.937  5.977  6.017  6.058  6.098  6.138
 
 150  6.138  6.179  6.219  6.259  6.299  6.339  6.380  6.420  6.460  6.500  6.540
 160  6.540  6.580  6.620  6.660  6.701  6.741  6.781  6.821  6.861  6.901  6.941
 170  6.941  6.981  7.021  7.060  7.100  7.140  7.180  7.220  7.260  7.300  7.340
 180  7.340  7.380  7.420  7.460  7.500  7.540  7.579  7.619  7.659  7.699  7.739
 190  7.739  7.779  7.819  7.859  7.899  7.939  7.979  8.019  8.059  8.099  8.138
 
 200  8.138  8.178  8.218  8.258  8.298  8.338  8.378  8.418  8.458  8.499  8.539
 210  8.539  8.579  8.619  8.659  8.699  8.739  8.779  8.819  8.860  8.900  8.940
 220  8.940  8.980  9.020  9.061  9.101  9.141  9.181  9.222  9.262  9.302  9.343
 230  9.343  9.383  9.423  9.464  9.504  9.545  9.585  9.626  9.666  9.707  9.747
 240  9.747  9.788  9.828  9.869  9.909  9.950  9.991 10.031 10.072 10.113 10.153
 
 250 10.153 10.194 10.235 10.276 10.316 10.357 10.398 10.439 10.480 10.520 10.561
 260 10.561 10.602 10.643 10.684 10.725 10.766 10.807 10.848 10.889 10.930 10.971
 270 10.971 11.012 11.053 11.094 11.135 11.176 11.217 11.259 11.300 11.341 11.382
 280 11.382 11.423 11.465 11.506 11.547 11.588 11.630 11.671 11.712 11.753 11.795
 290 11.795 11.836 11.877 11.919 11.960 12.001 12.043 12.084 12.126 12.167 12.209
 
 300 12.209 12.250 12.291 12.333 12.374 12.416 12.457 12.499 12.540 12.582 12.624
 310 12.624 12.665 12.707 12.748 12.790 12.831 12.873 12.915 12.956 12.998 13.040
 320 13.040 13.081 13.123 13.165 13.206 13.248 13.290 13.331 13.373 13.415 13.457
 330 13.457 13.498 13.540 13.582 13.624 13.665 13.707 13.749 13.791 13.833 13.874
 340 13.874 13.916 13.958 14.000 14.042 14.084 14.126 14.167 14.209 14.251 14.293
 
 350 14.293 14.335 14.377 14.419 14.461 14.503 14.545 14.587 14.629 14.671 14.713
 360 14.713 14.755 14.797 14.839 14.881 14.923 14.965 15.007 15.049 15.091 15.133
 370 15.133 15.175 15.217 15.259 15.301 15.343 15.385 15.427 15.469 15.511 15.554
 380 15.554 15.596 15.638 15.680 15.722 15.764 15.806 15.849 15.891 15.933 15.975
 390 15.975 16.017 16.059 16.102 16.144 16.186 16.228 16.270 16.313 16.355 16.397
 
 400 16.397 16.439 16.482 16.524 16.566 16.608 16.651 16.693 16.735 16.778 16.820
 410 16.820 16.862 16.904 16.947 16.989 17.031 17.074 17.116 17.158 17.201 17.243
 420 17.243 17.285 17.328 17.370 17.413 17.455 17.497 17.540 17.582 17.624 17.667
 430 17.667 17.709 17.752 17.794 17.837 17.879 17.921 17.964 18.006 18.049 18.091
 440 18.091 18.134 18.176 18.218 18.261 18.303 18.346 18.388 18.431 18.473 18.516
 
 450 18.516 18.558 18.601 18.643 18.686 18.728 18.771 18.813 18.856 18.898 18.941
 460 18.941 18.983 19.026 19.068 19.111 19.154 19.196 19.239 19.281 19.324 19.366
 470 19.366 19.409 19.451 19.494 19.537 19.579 19.622 19.664 19.707 19.750 19.792
 480 19.792 19.835 19.877 19.920 19.962 20.005 20.048 20.090 20.133 20.175 20.218
 490 20.218 20.261 20.303 20.346 20.389 20.431 20.474 20.516 20.559 20.602 20.644
 
 °C      0      1      2      3      4      5      6      7      8      9     10 
 
  ITS-90 Table for type K  thermocouple
 °C      0      1      2      3      4      5      6      7      8      9     10 
                               Thermoelectric Voltage in mV
 
 500 20.644 20.687 20.730 20.772 20.815 20.857 20.900 20.943 20.985 21.028 21.071
 510 21.071 21.113 21.156 21.199 21.241 21.284 21.326 21.369 21.412 21.454 21.497
 520 21.497 21.540 21.582 21.625 21.668 21.710 21.753 21.796 21.838 21.881 21.924
 530 21.924 21.966 22.009 22.052 22.094 22.137 22.179 22.222 22.265 22.307 22.350
 540 22.350 22.393 22.435 22.478 22.521 22.563 22.606 22.649 22.691 22.734 22.776
 
 550 22.776 22.819 22.862 22.904 22.947 22.990 23.032 23.075 23.117 23.160 23.203
 560 23.203 23.245 23.288 23.331 23.373 23.416 23.458 23.501 23.544 23.586 23.629
 570 23.629 23.671 23.714 23.757 23.799 23.842 23.884 23.927 23.970 24.012 24.055
 580 24.055 24.097 24.140 24.182 24.225 24.267 24.310 24.353 24.395 24.438 24.480
 590 24.480 24.523 24.565 24.608 24.650 24.693 24.735 24.778 24.820 24.863 24.905
 
 600 24.905 24.948 24.990 25.033 25.075 25.118 25.160 25.203 25.245 25.288 25.330
 610 25.330 25.373 25.415 25.458 25.500 25.543 25.585 25.627 25.670 25.712 25.755
 620 25.755 25.797 25.840 25.882 25.924 25.967 26.009 26.052 26.094 26.136 26.179
 630 26.179 26.221 26.263 26.306 26.348 26.390 26.433 26.475 26.517 26.560 26.602
 640 26.602 26.644 26.687 26.729 26.771 26.814 26.856 26.898 26.940 26.983 27.025
 
 650 27.025 27.067 27.109 27.152 27.194 27.236 27.278 27.320 27.363 27.405 27.447
 660 27.447 27.489 27.531 27.574 27.616 27.658 27.700 27.742 27.784 27.826 27.869
 670 27.869 27.911 27.953 27.995 28.037 28.079 28.121 28.163 28.205 28.247 28.289
 680 28.289 28.332 28.374 28.416 28.458 28.500 28.542 28.584 28.626 28.668 28.710
 690 28.710 28.752 28.794 28.835 28.877 28.919 28.961 29.003 29.045 29.087 29.129
 
 700 29.129 29.171 29.213 29.255 29.297 29.338 29.380 29.422 29.464 29.506 29.548
 710 29.548 29.589 29.631 29.673 29.715 29.757 29.798 29.840 29.882 29.924 29.965
 720 29.965 30.007 30.049 30.090 30.132 30.174 30.216 30.257 30.299 30.341 30.382
 730 30.382 30.424 30.466 30.507 30.549 30.590 30.632 30.674 30.715 30.757 30.798
 740 30.798 30.840 30.881 30.923 30.964 31.006 31.047 31.089 31.130 31.172 31.213
 
 750 31.213 31.255 31.296 31.338 31.379 31.421 31.462 31.504 31.545 31.586 31.628
 760 31.628 31.669 31.710 31.752 31.793 31.834 31.876 31.917 31.958 32.000 32.041
 770 32.041 32.082 32.124 32.165 32.206 32.247 32.289 32.330 32.371 32.412 32.453
 780 32.453 32.495 32.536 32.577 32.618 32.659 32.700 32.742 32.783 32.824 32.865
 790 32.865 32.906 32.947 32.988 33.029 33.070 33.111 33.152 33.193 33.234 33.275
 
 800 33.275 33.316 33.357 33.398 33.439 33.480 33.521 33.562 33.603 33.644 33.685
 810 33.685 33.726 33.767 33.808 33.848 33.889 33.930 33.971 34.012 34.053 34.093
 820 34.093 34.134 34.175 34.216 34.257 34.297 34.338 34.379 34.420 34.460 34.501
 830 34.501 34.542 34.582 34.623 34.664 34.704 34.745 34.786 34.826 34.867 34.908
 840 34.908 34.948 34.989 35.029 35.070 35.110 35.151 35.192 35.232 35.273 35.313
 
 850 35.313 35.354 35.394 35.435 35.475 35.516 35.556 35.596 35.637 35.677 35.718
 860 35.718 35.758 35.798 35.839 35.879 35.920 35.960 36.000 36.041 36.081 36.121
 870 36.121 36.162 36.202 36.242 36.282 36.323 36.363 36.403 36.443 36.484 36.524
 880 36.524 36.564 36.604 36.644 36.685 36.725 36.765 36.805 36.845 36.885 36.925
 890 36.925 36.965 37.006 37.046 37.086 37.126 37.166 37.206 37.246 37.286 37.326
 
 900 37.326 37.366 37.406 37.446 37.486 37.526 37.566 37.606 37.646 37.686 37.725
 910 37.725 37.765 37.805 37.845 37.885 37.925 37.965 38.005 38.044 38.084 38.124
 920 38.124 38.164 38.204 38.243 38.283 38.323 38.363 38.402 38.442 38.482 38.522
 930 38.522 38.561 38.601 38.641 38.680 38.720 38.760 38.799 38.839 38.878 38.918
 940 38.918 38.958 38.997 39.037 39.076 39.116 39.155 39.195 39.235 39.274 39.314
 
 950 39.314 39.353 39.393 39.432 39.471 39.511 39.550 39.590 39.629 39.669 39.708
 960 39.708 39.747 39.787 39.826 39.866 39.905 39.944 39.984 40.023 40.062 40.101
 970 40.101 40.141 40.180 40.219 40.259 40.298 40.337 40.376 40.415 40.455 40.494
 980 40.494 40.533 40.572 40.611 40.651 40.690 40.729 40.768 40.807 40.846 40.885
 990 40.885 40.924 40.963 41.002 41.042 41.081 41.120 41.159 41.198 41.237 41.276
 
 °C      0      1      2      3      4      5      6      7      8      9     10 
 
  ITS-90 Table for type K  thermocouple
 °C      0      1      2      3      4      5      6      7      8      9     10 
                               Thermoelectric Voltage in mV
 
1000 41.276 41.315 41.354 41.393 41.431 41.470 41.509 41.548 41.587 41.626 41.665
1010 41.665 41.704 41.743 41.781 41.820 41.859 41.898 41.937 41.976 42.014 42.053
1020 42.053 42.092 42.131 42.169 42.208 42.247 42.286 42.324 42.363 42.402 42.440
1030 42.440 42.479 42.518 42.556 42.595 42.633 42.672 42.711 42.749 42.788 42.826
1040 42.826 42.865 42.903 42.942 42.980 43.019 43.057 43.096 43.134 43.173 43.211
 
1050 43.211 43.250 43.288 43.327 43.365 43.403 43.442 43.480 43.518 43.557 43.595
1060 43.595 43.633 43.672 43.710 43.748 43.787 43.825 43.863 43.901 43.940 43.978
1070 43.978 44.016 44.054 44.092 44.130 44.169 44.207 44.245 44.283 44.321 44.359
1080 44.359 44.397 44.435 44.473 44.512 44.550 44.588 44.626 44.664 44.702 44.740
1090 44.740 44.778 44.816 44.853 44.891 44.929 44.967 45.005 45.043 45.081 45.119
 
1100 45.119 45.157 45.194 45.232 45.270 45.308 45.346 45.383 45.421 45.459 45.497
1110 45.497 45.534 45.572 45.610 45.647 45.685 45.723 45.760 45.798 45.836 45.873
1120 45.873 45.911 45.948 45.986 46.024 46.061 46.099 46.136 46.174 46.211 46.249
1130 46.249 46.286 46.324 46.361 46.398 46.436 46.473 46.511 46.548 46.585 46.623
1140 46.623 46.660 46.697 46.735 46.772 46.809 46.847 46.884 46.921 46.958 46.995
 
1150 46.995 47.033 47.070 47.107 47.144 47.181 47.218 47.256 47.293 47.330 47.367
1160 47.367 47.404 47.441 47.478 47.515 47.552 47.589 47.626 47.663 47.700 47.737
1170 47.737 47.774 47.811 47.848 47.884 47.921 47.958 47.995 48.032 48.069 48.105
1180 48.105 48.142 48.179 48.216 48.252 48.289 48.326 48.363 48.399 48.436 48.473
1190 48.473 48.509 48.546 48.582 48.619 48.656 48.692 48.729 48.765 48.802 48.838
 
1200 48.838 48.875 48.911 48.948 48.984 49.021 49.057 49.093 49.130 49.166 49.202
1210 49.202 49.239 49.275 49.311 49.348 49.384 49.420 49.456 49.493 49.529 49.565
1220 49.565 49.601 49.637 49.674 49.710 49.746 49.782 49.818 49.854 49.890 49.926
1230 49.926 49.962 49.998 50.034 50.070 50.106 50.142 50.178 50.214 50.250 50.286
1240 50.286 50.322 50.358 50.393 50.429 50.465 50.501 50.537 50.572 50.608 50.644
 
1250 50.644 50.680 50.715 50.751 50.787 50.822 50.858 50.894 50.929 50.965 51.000
1260 51.000 51.036 51.071 51.107 51.142 51.178 51.213 51.249 51.284 51.320 51.355
1270 51.355 51.391 51.426 51.461 51.497 51.532 51.567 51.603 51.638 51.673 51.708
1280 51.708 51.744 51.779 51.814 51.849 51.885 51.920 51.955 51.990 52.025 52.060
1290 52.060 52.095 52.130 52.165 52.200 52.235 52.270 52.305 52.340 52.375 52.410
 
1300 52.410 52.445 52.480 52.515 52.550 52.585 52.620 52.654 52.689 52.724 52.759
1310 52.759 52.794 52.828 52.863 52.898 52.932 52.967 53.002 53.037 53.071 53.106
1320 53.106 53.140 53.175 53.210 53.244 53.279 53.313 53.348 53.382 53.417 53.451
1330 53.451 53.486 53.520 53.555 53.589 53.623 53.658 53.692 53.727 53.761 53.795
1340 53.795 53.830 53.864 53.898 53.932 53.967 54.001 54.035 54.069 54.104 54.138
 
1350 54.138 54.172 54.206 54.240 54.274 54.308 54.343 54.377 54.411 54.445 54.479
1360 54.479 54.513 54.547 54.581 54.615 54.649 54.683 54.717 54.751 54.785 54.819
1370 54.819 54.852 54.886                                                         
 
 °C      0      1      2      3      4      5      6      7      8      9     10 



************************************
* This section contains coefficients for type K thermocouples for
* the two subranges of temperature listed below.  The coefficients
* are in units of °C and mV and are listed in the order of constant
* term up to the highest order.  The equation below 0 °C is of the form
* E = sum(i=0 to n) c_i t^i.
*
* The equation above 0 °C is of the form
* E = sum(i=0 to n) c_i t^i + a0 exp(a1 (t - a2)^2).
*
*     Temperature Range (°C)
*        -270.000 to 0.000
*         0.000 to 1372.000
************************************
name: reference function on ITS-90
type: K
temperature units: °C
emf units: mV
range: -270.000, 0.000, 10
  0.000000000000E+00
  0.394501280250E-01
  0.236223735980E-04
 -0.328589067840E-06
 -0.499048287770E-08
 -0.675090591730E-10
 -0.574103274280E-12
 -0.310888728940E-14
 -0.104516093650E-16
 -0.198892668780E-19
 -0.163226974860E-22
range: 0.000, 1372.000, 9
 -0.176004136860E-01
  0.389212049750E-01
  0.185587700320E-04
 -0.994575928740E-07
  0.318409457190E-09
 -0.560728448890E-12
  0.560750590590E-15
 -0.320207200030E-18
  0.971511471520E-22
 -0.121047212750E-25
exponential:
 a0 =  0.118597600000E+00
 a1 = -0.118343200000E-03
 a2 =  0.126968600000E+03



************************************
* This section contains coefficients of approximate inverse
* functions for type K thermocouples for the subranges of
* temperature and voltage listed below. The range of errors of
* the approximate inverse function for each subrange is also given.
* The coefficients are in units of °C and mV and are listed in
* the order of constant term up to the highest order.
* The equation is of the form t_90 = d_0 + d_1*E + d_2*E^2 + ...
*     + d_n*E^n,
* where E is in mV and t_90 is in °C.
*
*    Temperature        Voltage            Error
*      range              range            range
*      (°C)               (mV)             (° C)
*    -200. to 0.      -5.891 to 0.000    -0.02 to 0.04
*     0. to 500.      0.000 to 20.644    -0.05 to 0.04
*     500. to 1372.   20.644 to 54.886   -0.05 to 0.06
********************************************************
Inverse coefficients for type K:
 
Temperature  -200.             0.           500.
  Range:        0.           500.          1372.
 
  Voltage   -5.891          0.000         20.644
  Range:     0.000         20.644         54.886
 
         0.0000000E+00  0.000000E+00 -1.318058E+02
         2.5173462E+01  2.508355E+01  4.830222E+01
        -1.1662878E+00  7.860106E-02 -1.646031E+00
        -1.0833638E+00 -2.503131E-01  5.464731E-02
        -8.9773540E-01  8.315270E-02 -9.650715E-04
        -3.7342377E-01 -1.228034E-02  8.802193E-06
        -8.6632643E-02  9.804036E-04 -3.110810E-08
        -1.0450598E-02 -4.413030E-05  0.000000E+00
        -5.1920577E-04  1.057734E-06  0.000000E+00
         0.0000000E+00 -1.052755E-08  0.000000E+00
 
  Error      -0.02          -0.05          -0.05
  Range:      0.04           0.04           0.06
 
 

 

Offline ralphdTopic starter

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2015, 07:30:20 pm »
1.6V is about right for a fresh alkaline.

Anyone with a 0.1% calibrated meter tried measuring them?  I did a couple of google searches and couldn't find anything.

A sample of a few unused alkaline cells gave measured voltages between 1.61 and 1.59 depending on age.

Thanks.  That supports my conclusion that my meter is reading a bit high (+1%).  I also get 5.05V off the USB port of an Acer PC, so if the meter is 1% high, the actual voltage would be bang on 5.0V.  Now to figure out how to calibrate my meter (it's got several trimmers on the PCB)...
Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth. Einstein
 

Online Gyro

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2015, 07:46:41 pm »
Or your PC might quite reasonably be putting out 4.95 or 5.05 or 5.1 or up to 5.25V and still be in spec. I really wouldn't use that as a basis for adjusting the calibration of a meter, especially if you don't have information on which pot to twiddle. :scared:

Edit: If it only measured 1.138V on the LR44 then you could just as easily suspect that it's reading low.

At the moment it sounds as if the meter is the most accurate reference that you've got!
« Last Edit: July 25, 2015, 07:53:43 pm by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline ralphdTopic starter

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2015, 07:53:41 pm »
I can see 8 trimmer pots on my meter's PCB.  Any suggestions on how to tell which one adjusts the voltage reference?
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Online Gyro

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2015, 07:55:39 pm »
PLEASE, non of them  :scared:
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline ralphdTopic starter

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2015, 07:59:34 pm »
If you already have a wide assortment of zeners though, you could simply use some of those for the time being. Give constant current and temperature, they won't drift much.

Vishay's datasheet says +-5% for zeners:
http://www.taydaelectronics.com/datasheets/A-170.pdf
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Offline Howardlong

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2015, 08:05:48 pm »
Or your PC might quite reasonably be putting out 4.95 or 5.05 or 5.1 or up to 5.25V and still be in spec. I really wouldn't use that as a basis for adjusting the calibration of a meter, especially if you don't have information on which pot to twiddle. :scared:

Edit: If it only measured 1.138V on the LR44 then you could just as easily suspect that it's reading low.

At the moment it sounds as if the meter is the most accurate reference that you've got!

+1
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2015, 08:07:13 pm »
PLEASE, non of them  :scared:

And again, +1.

 

Offline SeanB

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2015, 08:16:21 pm »
Even the cheap ( or free with coupon) Canada Tyre meter will be accurate on DC voltage to within 0.1%, or basically of the 1999 display the voltage will be correct for the 199 part, the last 9 digit will be up to 5 counts out of the actual voltage. Pretty much any of them out of the box, will agree with the others to this 5 count error.

If you need more confidence then get a voltage reference from www.voltagestandard.com, or look at 99centhobbies.com ( Frankie Tong, a long standing member here) where he will be able to sell you a BM869s, which will be a lot more resolution than most people require for most uses.
 

Offline ralphdTopic starter

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2015, 08:25:15 pm »
Or your PC might quite reasonably be putting out 4.95 or 5.05 or 5.1 or up to 5.25V and still be in spec. I really wouldn't use that as a basis for adjusting the calibration of a meter, especially if you don't have information on which pot to twiddle. :scared:

Edit: If it only measured 1.138V on the LR44 then you could just as easily suspect that it's reading low.

At the moment it sounds as if the meter is the most accurate reference that you've got!

Then how do you explain the 1.635V reading on the alkaline batteries?
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Online IanB

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2015, 08:37:53 pm »
Then how do you explain the 1.635V reading on the alkaline batteries?

Maybe the batteries are really 1.635 V? My batteries have been sitting on the shelf for a while. A brand new battery may read higher. You have a sample reading but nowhere near enough data to base any decisions about adjusting your meter.
 

Online Gyro

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2015, 08:50:35 pm »
What he said... :)

Just one other thought, check that your meter battery is ok. Some meters can start throwing funny readings before their low battery indicator show up. If you believe that your meter has suddenly drifted off then it might be worth changing it. More likely than a significant calibration error.
Best Regards, Chris
 

Offline ralphdTopic starter

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2015, 09:42:51 pm »
What he said... :)

Just one other thought, check that your meter battery is ok. Some meters can start throwing funny readings before their low battery indicator show up. If you believe that your meter has suddenly drifted off then it might be worth changing it. More likely than a significant calibration error.

8.5V with a ~5mA load (red LED & 1.2K resistor).  A newer Duracell alkaline reads 8.7V.
I dug up my Ideal clamp-style meter that I mainly use for measuring AC power, but it also has a DC setting (with only 1 decimal place accuracy).
I before testing the battery in the CT meter, I did some other tests:
36V HP supply: 39.1V(Ideal), 39.0(CT),
14.4 NiCd charged: 16.6(Ideal), 16.60(CT)

So now that has me thinking the people that say fresh alkaline cells are 1.60V are testing with batteries that are older than mine... (even though alkaline are supposed to have very low self-discharge).

For one more data point, I measured the 3.3V supply on a RPi B+ at 3.295V.
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Online IanB

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2015, 10:01:27 pm »
Alkaline batteries are not designed or constructed as reference voltage sources.

Different manufacturers may use different chemical formulations. Then the temperature will affect the voltage reading as well as the age.

You can say a fresh battery will read about 1.6 V. You can't say it will read about 1.60 V. That's too many digits of precision.
 

Offline ralphdTopic starter

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2015, 10:07:54 pm »
I thought of using the band gap reference on an AVR MCU, but it looks like they are not very accurate.
https://harizanov.com/2013/09/thoughts-on-avr-adc-accuracy/
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Offline ralphdTopic starter

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #46 on: July 25, 2015, 10:19:15 pm »
I found some old (2013 expiry date) unused Energizer alkaline C cells.  2 read 1.586 and 2 read 1.584V.
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Offline Alexei.Polkhanov

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #47 on: July 25, 2015, 10:21:24 pm »
Are you familiar with a Weston Cell?
I wasn't.  After reading about it, I won't be trying it since I don't have a local source for the cadmium and mercury.
- Ebay, i got my cadmium from US supplier
http://www.ebay.com/itm/9oz-250g-Pure-Cadmium-Metal-Sticks-99-99-Element-Sample-Rod-1-4-kg-/111333082639?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19ebf8060f
and I got mercury from local chem supplier or I think you can get mercury from 50 or so switches like these:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/5pcs-Mercury-Tilt-Switch-24V-0-3A-Alarm-Car-Motion-Position-Angle-/201103317313?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ed2b11941

Glass work can be of challenge not the materials.
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #48 on: July 25, 2015, 11:06:17 pm »
Much of this thread is going in circles:

Thermocouples need temperature (not to mention some very good amplifiers).

Temperature of phase transitions depends on pressure.

You can use triple points of appropriate materials (water's is a hair over 0C), but then you have to prepare such samples... they also have to be extremely pure, chemically, otherwise the melting point will be slightly depressed, or the vapor phase will be depressed.

Electrochemical voltages depend on all these, once again.  At least the voltage has a logarithmic dependency on temperature and concentration, but it's still sensitive.

And you need an extremely good thermal bath, no small feat of its own, and certainly not compact.

Semiconductors implement a voltage reference by using a difference of exponentials, which are ultimately related to the bandgap of the material.  Which also varies with temperature, but in a way predictable for a given material; and another bandgap can be adjusted to give a signal proportional to temperature, rather than nominally canceling it out, and that signal used as compensation to Nth order.

Which, really, isn't much *better* than taking any half-assed method, measuring the contributing variables (like temperature), and applying a compensation to keep it straight.  But it's notable that semiconductors are particularly well suited to this (the reference circuit can be made very independent of applied voltage, so that ambient temperature is basically the extent of it), and have decades of development behind them, perfecting these designs*.

*Except for the crap they threw in the ATMegas.  Those things are shit.  The ADC barely meets useful specs, the reference isn't, and POR/BOD are dV/dt sensitive.  The stuff in the XMEGAs looks like they actually got someone who knows their head from their ass, but almost no specs have guaranteed ranges, and the documentation stinks.

Tim
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Online Ian.M

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Re: real-world voltage reference?
« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2015, 12:17:04 am »
As I said way earlier, Heathkit used to recommend calibrating against a fresh totally unused Zinc Carbon cell at a nominal 1.55V.  I think we can assume room temperature of 25 deg C, but the problem is the cell chemistry may have changed.   

Way back in the day, it was common to wipe the inside of the Zinc cup anode with Mercury to form an amalgam layer to discourage local action due to impurities that could rapidly pit and eventually hole the Zinc cup.  Mercury in disposable batteries is now banned, so current production used ultra-pure Zinc.  Also, way way back they were dry Leclanche cells with an Ammonium Chloride electrolyte, however it was found that adding Zinc Chloride to the electrolyte improved performance and reduced corrosion of the Zinc by the Ammonium Chloride in storage, which eventually resulted in so called heavy duty Zinc Carbon cells which have Zinc chloride as the majority of the electrolyte.   Currently available cells will be of this type.  Its a mature technology and apart from the removal of Mercury and the replacement of asphalt seals with plastic ones , hasn't changed significantly in the last 40 years.

Also, we don't know if Heathkit were rounding to the nearest 0 or 5, which would have been approx +/- 1.66%  or if it was to the nearest digit which would be approx +/- 0.33%.   

I also don't have the original Heathkit valve voltmeter manual handy to see if they used a standard (nearer to Leclanche) or heavy duty (Zinc Chloride) cell.

With all the above uncertainties, the best way forward would be if those of us with precision bench voltmeters or a 0.1% or better calibration source, were to acquire the freshest Heavy Duty Zinc Carbon AA we can easily get and post the initial unloaded terminal voltage (to 3 decimal places), brand and product name, expiry date and ambient temperature.  As they are readily available from pound shops / dollar stores, that shouldn't be too great an imposition.

If Heathkit's figure of 1.55V is still reasonably reliable, that will be useful to know when trying to help people in less developed countries, or for a quick sanity check when no precision calibration source is available.  If it is not, then the idea needs to be consigned to the dustbin of history.

Other types of consumer battery with the exception of the Silver Oxide button cell wouldn't be suitable for calibration use as the manufacturers are still actively developing and tweaking the cell chemistry which results in variations from brand to brand and from one year to the next.
 


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