Author Topic: SMD R/C sets - help me get started!  (Read 18512 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline dadler

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 851
  • Country: us
Re: SMD R/C sets - help me get started!
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2016, 06:54:06 pm »
MLCC capacitance drops a lot as the caps approach their peak rated voltage. It depends on your use case, but I usually spec my MLCCs at at least 2x or 3x their intended voltage in the circuit. For 3.3V/5V logic, I typically always use caps rated to at least 16V. Lower capacitance caps are usually rated to 50V anyways.

The larger packages seem to lose less capacitance as they approach their peak voltage. For this reason, I may use an 0805 or 1206 cap rather than 0603 if I have the space.
 

Online Siwastaja

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8167
  • Country: fi
Re: SMD R/C sets - help me get started!
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2016, 07:06:53 pm »
Basically, X7R is so poor that it's only usable in energy storage, i.e., DC link filtration. Y5V is even worse. And not all X7R caps are the same. Some X7R caps lose 30% of their capacitance at rated voltage, some lose 60%. Y5V may lose up to 90%. Parts that are small for their capacitance, i.e., the "too good to be true" parts, suffer more. The high capacitance is not "real", you cannot use all of it in the intended purpose.

So you just need to know what's the REAL capacitance is and use suitable parts. Then you have excess capacitance in some (good) conditions, but that's usually not a problem. You design for the worst case.

So this is a price optimization after all:

Let's assume you have analyzed that you really need 50nF to reliably bypass a 5V IC power pin, which is fairly typical (very difficult to actually analyze, but let's trust the datasheets). So, most of the caps rated at "X7R 10V 100nF" would barely do, but some rated at "X7R 6.3V 100nF" wouldn't, because the loss of capacity is greater near the rated DC voltage. If you used Y5V, you would almost certainly need to use a part rated at 16V 220nF to guarantee 50nF over all operating conditions. Then, the supposed price saving in the Y5V suddenly goes away; you were comparing apples to oranges, or a 50 nF cap to a 20 nF cap, if you measured the actual capacitance in its intended usage. TLDR: Y5V usually doesn't make sense, unless the price is exceptionally good and you do the proper analysis. Don't buy those to your lab or for DIY.

It's not only temperature and DC bias; aging also reduces capacitance, which is mostly reversible AFAIK.

So you typically select X7R and at least at double the voltage rating, which kind of keeps the loss of capacitance manageable, you'll always get at least half of the rated C with most caps, usually at least 70%.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2016, 07:11:45 pm by Siwastaja »
 
The following users thanked this post: julian1

Offline LomaxTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 565
  • Country: eu
  • Minimalist
Re: SMD R/C sets - help me get started!
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2016, 07:24:21 pm »
This is great guys, thank you so much for taking the time to share your insights! Basically, it sounds like I'm thinking along the right lines then, WRT dielectrics and voltages? 50V C0Gs 10nF and below, 100V (or 50V?) X7Rs 100pF and up? The same for SMDs as for through-holes?

So this is a price optimization after all

Well, yeah, ok, I've seen the prices of C0G at the higher values - it starts to get crazy above 10nF or so - hence X7R for the top part of the range.
 

Online Siwastaja

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8167
  • Country: fi
Re: SMD R/C sets - help me get started!
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2016, 07:44:35 pm »
Going up to 50V, let alone 100V, doesn't always make sense. Most of the time, these caps are used to bypass 5V or 3.3V chips, in which case 16V or 25V has ample margin. If you go to 50V, you won't get higher capacitances in the handy 0603 case anymore at all; in corner cases where it is available, the price is often too much (and the real capacity under those conditions suffers more, so it's partially a marketing bluff).

Get something like this:

0603:
4.7 pF NP0, voltage irrelevant (for smaller crystals)
18 pF NP0, voltage irrelevant (for larger crystals)
100 pF NP0, voltage irrelevant (signal filtration)
1nF NP0, voltage irrelevant (signal filtration)
10nF X7R 50V (some heavier RC filtration stuff)
100nF X7R 25V (general bypassing; or get 50V if you use higher than 12V chips, e.g. opamps at high rails, but it'll be more expensive without much benefit at 3.3V, and you'll be using A LOT of these! Buy 500 at least, consider a full reel.)
1uF X7R 25V (high-power bypassing, fet drivers, fet driver bootstrap caps etc. Going over 25V shoots the price up or ups the case to 0805)

0805:
2.2uF X7R 25V (DC/DC converter / LDO output caps)

1206 or 1210:
10uF X7R 25V (DC/DC converter / LDO output caps, less than, say, 15V)
10uF X7R 50V (DC/DC converter / LDO output caps, higher than, say, 15V)

Take this as a grain of salt. I don't completely agree with myself while trying to write it down like this, but the general idea is valid.

In corner cases, where the energy storage is highish for the case size, go for the bigger case: not only it brings the price down, but the real capacitance might be a bit bigger! You'll find this out when shopping for the parts. Practical limit for 0603 is somewhere around 1uF at 25V.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2016, 07:54:07 pm by Siwastaja »
 

Offline LomaxTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 565
  • Country: eu
  • Minimalist
Re: SMD R/C sets - help me get started!
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2016, 07:56:10 pm »
Going up to 50V, let alone 100V, doesn't always make sense. Most of the time, these caps are used to bypass 5V or 3.3V chips, in which case 16V or 25V has ample margin. If you go to 50V, you won't get higher capacitances in the handy 0603 case anymore at all; in corner cases where it is available, the price is often too much (and the real capacity under those conditions suffers more, so it's partially a marketing bluff).

Fair points! Of course with SMDs the constrained physical sizes imposes some extra limits which are less obvious with through-holes. I'm still getting used to thinking in these terms.

Get something like this:

0603:
4.7 pF NP0, voltage irrelevant (for smaller crystals)
18 pF NP0, voltage irrelevant (for larger crystals)
100 pF NP0, voltage irrelevant (signal filtration)
1nF NP0, voltage irrelevant (signal filtration)
10nF X7R 50V (some heavier RC filtration stuff)
100nF X7R 25V (general bypassing; or get 50V if you use higher than 12V chips, e.g. opamps at high rails, but it'll be more expensive without much benefit at 3.3V, and you'll be using A LOT of these! Buy 500 at least, consider a full reel.)
1uF X7R 25V (high-power bypassing, fet drivers, fet driver bootstrap caps etc. Going over 25V shoots the price up or ups the case to 0805)

0805:
2.2uF X7R 25V (DC/DC converter / LDO output caps)

1206 or 1210:
10uF X7R 25V (DC/DC converter / LDO output caps, less than, say, 15V)
10uF X7R 50V (DC/DC converter / LDO output caps, higher than, say, 15V)

Take this as a grain of salt. I don't completely agree with myself while trying to write it down like this, but the general idea is valid.

Thanks, that looks like a good starting point. I'm amazed it's possible to squeeze enough dielectric into a 0603 case to get 1uF @ 25V - or at least enough to be able to call it that; I'm totally with you on the misleading specs.
 

Offline Cloud

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 194
  • Country: si
Re: SMD R/C sets - help me get started!
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2016, 09:30:38 pm »
I most of the time use 0805 resistors and 603 capacitors. I have bought resistors from farnell 100 pcs on tape for E24 and I think 100 pcs was about 0.3eur.
 

Offline Someone

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4525
  • Country: au
    • send complaints here
Re: SMD R/C sets - help me get started!
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2016, 10:13:34 pm »
Going up to 50V, let alone 100V, doesn't always make sense. Most of the time, these caps are used to bypass 5V or 3.3V chips, in which case 16V or 25V has ample margin. If you go to 50V, you won't get higher capacitances in the handy 0603 case anymore at all; in corner cases where it is available, the price is often too much (and the real capacity under those conditions suffers more, so it's partially a marketing bluff).

Fair points! Of course with SMDs the constrained physical sizes imposes some extra limits which are less obvious with through-holes. I'm still getting used to thinking in these terms.

Get something like this:

0603:
4.7 pF NP0, voltage irrelevant (for smaller crystals)
18 pF NP0, voltage irrelevant (for larger crystals)
100 pF NP0, voltage irrelevant (signal filtration)
1nF NP0, voltage irrelevant (signal filtration)
10nF X7R 50V (some heavier RC filtration stuff)
100nF X7R 25V (general bypassing; or get 50V if you use higher than 12V chips, e.g. opamps at high rails, but it'll be more expensive without much benefit at 3.3V, and you'll be using A LOT of these! Buy 500 at least, consider a full reel.)
1uF X7R 25V (high-power bypassing, fet drivers, fet driver bootstrap caps etc. Going over 25V shoots the price up or ups the case to 0805)

0805:
2.2uF X7R 25V (DC/DC converter / LDO output caps)

1206 or 1210:
10uF X7R 25V (DC/DC converter / LDO output caps, less than, say, 15V)
10uF X7R 50V (DC/DC converter / LDO output caps, higher than, say, 15V)

Take this as a grain of salt. I don't completely agree with myself while trying to write it down like this, but the general idea is valid.

Thanks, that looks like a good starting point. I'm amazed it's possible to squeeze enough dielectric into a 0603 case to get 1uF @ 25V - or at least enough to be able to call it that; I'm totally with you on the misleading specs.
Trouble is the density keeps rising, 0402 (1005 metric) has cost effective 1uF caps with 25V and 35V ratings, 0201 (0603 metric) 1uF parts are routine at 10V ratings.

@dadler: That looks like a nice and simple way to store the components, thanks for sharing! Since I don't really have any SMD parts yet (hence this thread) apart from some LEDs and a few bits that have been bought for specific projects I haven't really got a firm plan for how best to store them. I like the look of those little flip-top boxes that can be joined up into trays, but I'm not sure. I store pretty much everything in a stack of Raaco Handy-Boxes, but while I'm a big fan of these, especially with the smooth lids and dual layer inserts, I doubt they'd work well for SMD components - I've already found some SMD LEDs that have escaped their trays...

Re. SMD resistors, I've now added 100 each E12 series of those 0805 Yaegos you suggested - total price: £35 for 85 values :D Based on what's been said I think I will be getting the same in 0603 OR 0402 as well. That's general purpose resistors taken care of - next up MLCCs...
I've tried to find a use for the modular trays with flip up lids, they're too big for surface mount passives and too small for general hardware, they do well for small screws and nuts but thats about all. For surface mount storage the prepackaged kits that come in a binder with inserts that hold tape flat are very good but expensive, and there are some clamshell cases or trays with many little sections each with their own lid (sometimes sold as pill/tablet organisers and some directly marketed as SMD storage) that are better sized and although they're not as convenient to open and close they are easier to work with overall.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2016, 09:23:41 am by Someone »
 

Offline jambrose

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 6
  • Country: us
Re: SMD R/C sets - help me get started!
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2016, 07:18:09 am »
Thanks everyone for all of this great information! And Lomax for starting it! I'm also planning on getting a basic stash of SMD resistors and capacitors in the near future and this thread has the type of basic information about pros/cons of various sizes, dielectrics, etc. that I've been looking for.
 

Online tszaboo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7368
  • Country: nl
  • Current job: ATEX product design
Re: SMD R/C sets - help me get started!
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2016, 11:10:14 am »
First, it doesn't make sense to have every possible capacitance. Sure, have many sizes of resistors, but you don't need that many cap values, especially something with tolerances and specs (DC/temperature bias, etc.) so poor to begin with. Just have a few small C0G sizes for signal filtration and crystal loads, and then a few bigger sizes for power decoupling; get decent X7R from reputable companies (no Ebay stuff, no matter what they claim).

It might not make sense for you to have every possible capacitor value, but other people do have such requirements. Filter design is a classic case where you need a specific value to work with the limited range of available inductors. In RF filter design it is often the case that you have to tweak component values after design, to take account of inevitable implementation "suboptimalities".
Exactly. A lab should totally have an E24 series capacitor values, because it is neccessary. All those SMPS designs which have external compansation will require odd capacitor and resistor values. All linear regulator will require odd resistor values. A bunch of digital circuit will call for odd capacitor values for the AC termination, delays, 555, frequency generation. There are a bunch of cases, where yo absolutely dont want to wait.
Thanks for sharing the images. Though... What I have at work is this:

it was done by the guy working here before, he was dong it "as it goes", so components in random order. These are smd storage boxes, brand named Wen Tai, they do the job reasonably well. 100 of them goes for something like 24 dollars. So storing 5 x E24 series, 0603 and 0805 + capacitor is less than 500 boxes, which is very reasonable price IMHO on the long term. There are also bigger sizes for other components. I'm actually considering buying some for the home lab.
And then maybe bigger boxes for the 1K, 10K, 100nF, 1uF, 47Ohm capacitors. Then I can say goodbye to the reels and baxs, which take the bulk of the storage. I'm still thinking.
 

Offline matseng

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 563
  • Country: se
    • My Github
Re: SMD R/C sets - help me get started!
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2016, 01:15:00 pm »
I bought some  similar boxes from seeedstudio many years ago, enough for all decades of E12 and a few dozen for caps and leds.  But they was of very low quality, probably 20% of the boxes doesn't open automatically when the tab is pulled.  I'd like to find new higher quality boxes that actually works.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2016, 01:59:58 pm by matseng »
 

Offline LomaxTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 565
  • Country: eu
  • Minimalist
Re: SMD R/C sets - help me get started!
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2016, 01:46:16 pm »
Just a quick note re. storage; while I'm happy for now to just keep the lengths of tape in individual bags, I have been looking at different storage options. The "tape strips in binders" style I have already discounted: I already have too many loose SMD parts in various quantities for tape binders to be a good option - and they're no good for wider tapes, or items that come in other packaging (or loose). The flip-top lid stackable boxes in @NANDBlog's post look like they can be a nightmare to get parts out of - you'd need to pick individual parts out with tweezers. I've also looked at the SMD trays from Licefa (model "A 1"), which based on price seems to be the Rolls-Royce option, but I really don't like them sharing a single lid - way too much risk of disasters; imagine dropping one of those trays :o The most interesting option I've found so far is the "vial" type storage, such as the "V 11" from Licefa. These are more reasonably priced (~£25 for 130 vials) and look like they will be easy to get individual items out of, by simply tapping/pouring them out on a small dish, but would love to hear what others think about this option!
 

Online tszaboo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7368
  • Country: nl
  • Current job: ATEX product design
Re: SMD R/C sets - help me get started!
« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2016, 02:19:10 pm »
You need to grab it with tweezers anyway, to place it on the PCB??? I dont know about the quality, these are like a year old, and I havent used them "in action" they just look neat, and I thought I share it.
 

Offline Someone

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4525
  • Country: au
    • send complaints here
Re: SMD R/C sets - help me get started!
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2016, 09:28:45 pm »
Just a quick note re. storage; while I'm happy for now to just keep the lengths of tape in individual bags, I have been looking at different storage options. The "tape strips in binders" style I have already discounted: I already have too many loose SMD parts in various quantities for tape binders to be a good option - and they're no good for wider tapes, or items that come in other packaging (or loose). The flip-top lid stackable boxes in @NANDBlog's post look like they can be a nightmare to get parts out of - you'd need to pick individual parts out with tweezers. I've also looked at the SMD trays from Licefa (model "A 1"), which based on price seems to be the Rolls-Royce option, but I really don't like them sharing a single lid - way too much risk of disasters; imagine dropping one of those trays :o The most interesting option I've found so far is the "vial" type storage, such as the "V 11" from Licefa. These are more reasonably priced (~£25 for 130 vials) and look like they will be easy to get individual items out of, by simply tapping/pouring them out on a small dish, but would love to hear what others think about this option!
The "phials" are available individually (V4-1) and can be packed tighter inside other boxes, they're good but the labelling can be tricky. Check out this company who no only sells kits but also the empty kit boxes:
http://aidetek.com/
 

Offline LomaxTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 565
  • Country: eu
  • Minimalist
Re: SMD R/C sets - help me get started!
« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2016, 10:55:42 pm »
You need to grab it with tweezers anyway, to place it on the PCB??? I dont know about the quality, these are like a year old, and I havent used them "in action" they just look neat, and I thought I share it.

Fair point! The few times I've done any SMD soldering though, I've always felt the need to place the part(s) I'm about to solder on a small flat tray first, so I can have a look at it under the scope, find the right orientation and then move it from that tray onto the PCB while looking through the scope. It may be that with practice I won't need this security blanket and can go straight from bin to PCB. 0402s are pretty damn small and fiddly though, at least to my imperfect eyes! I do like the look of those boxes you posted a photo of, in fact they were on my list until I saw the "phial" type storage and had an idea. But more on that below.

The "phials" are available individually (V4-1) and can be packed tighter inside other boxes

You know that was exactly the thought I had when I saw them, but I wasn't able to find the "phials" sold separately - now that I know the correct model number I've been able to turn up a few sources, like Farnell for example. This could well be the perfect option for storing SMD passives. As I've said many times, and will continue to do, the Raaco "Handy Box" storage units are frikkin brilliant:

  • They lock together both vertically and horizontally, and can be carried around by a handle on top - also while stacked.
  • The four service cases each one holds won't slide out while carrying them (or when moving house!).
  • Each individual case has a handle as well - so if you only need screws, just bring the screws :)
  • There's a huge number of inserts available; from tiny half-height ones to almost half a case.
  • You can populate the cases partially with inserts if you want to store outsize items.
  • The inside bottom is ridged, which keep the inserts in place even when one has been removed.
  • It's great to be able to take out individual inserts with just those things you will be using.
  • They come in many different colours, so you'll know where each one belongs in the stack.
  • Both cases and individual inserts are available in ESD safe versions.
  • They are made in Europe, Denmark to be specific, and the quality is great - yet they won't break the bank.
Seriously, they're the best thing ever - I use mine to store everything from nuts and bolts to batteries, glues, soldering tips, flux and paste, fuses, shrink tubing, cable ties, blank PCBs, wire, drills, taps & blades, tissues, picks, pins, brushes, and of course all my electronic components, switches, displays and connectors. The stack of four pictured on the first page of this thread weighs a ton, but they handle it without bending or wobbling - sturdy enough to sit on if you need to! To give you some idea of the density you can achieve, I store the E12 series (10-1M) of 1/2W through-hole resistors (0207) - 100 of each value - in one such case, and I still have room for a tray of mixed power resistors in there as well. Magic.

So naturally, I would love it if I could use these for storing SMD parts as well! I currently do actually, but the gap between the lid and the inserts is big enough that parts may will escape if you shake it about a bit. HOWEVER, using the "phials" we're talking about here it would be possible to stack a yuuuge number of SMD parts in these cases quite safely. Aaaand it would be possible to use a mixture of different containers, so power resistors could be kept in the same tray as regular ones, and electrolytics with MLCCs, and so on. It would even allow you to mix SMD and through-hole in the same case if you were thus inclined. There's just one thing that worries me: will one of those tiny "phials" (vials!?) hold 100 pcs of 0805 size parts? I think not. Has anyone seen (slightly) larger versions somewhere?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2016, 02:23:37 am by Lomax »
 

Offline LomaxTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 565
  • Country: eu
  • Minimalist
Re: SMD R/C sets - help me get started!
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2016, 06:37:07 pm »
Here are some alternative storage options I've found. Mainly for chemistry and bead-crafting, but some may be perfect for SMD passives as well?

Edit: I've just bought 10 each of the 1ml and 2ml clear tubes, just to see what they're like and how they might be stacked in a Raaco service case. The 1ml tubes are 36mm tall, and the 2ml ones 49mm, both 11mm diameter. They're the best option I've been able to find so far, given that I need to fit up to 100pcs 0805 in each one, and since they're round it should be fairly easy to make a tray for them by drilling a grid of 11.5mm holes a piece of acrylic. The Licefa "phials" discussed above are just 6x6x20mm, and though I like that they have a  square cross-section, they will be too small for my needs. It should be possible to store about 300 of these tubes in a service case, with enough spacing to make them easy to grasp. As an example, that's more than enough for the E12 series (1-10M) in three sizes (255). Drilling 300 holes is a daunting task though - maybe time to get that CNC router I've been dreaming about :D
« Last Edit: March 12, 2016, 09:26:34 pm by Lomax »
 

Offline bson

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2269
  • Country: us
Re: SMD R/C sets - help me get started!
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2016, 08:26:17 pm »
Go to ebay and do a search on "smd storage box".  This will give you results like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SMT-SMD-resistor-capacitor-storage-box-Organizer-1206-0603-0805-0402-0201-tiny-R-/280633468437?hash=item41570ee615:g:PvgAAOSw~OVWvuRU

This will work much better than a bunch of loose containers.
 

Offline LomaxTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 565
  • Country: eu
  • Minimalist
Re: SMD R/C sets - help me get started!
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2016, 09:19:44 pm »
This will work much better than a bunch of loose containers.

Thanks for the tip, but I'm afraid I don't agree; I find individual containers easier to work with, allowing me to pick out just the parts I need without cluttering up my workbench with component trays. It's usually pretty crammed anyway. If you want to stock whole series of resistors and capacitors, you would typically need to have at least three of those boxes on your bench (resistors+capacitors+others) to populate a board, and enough space left to unfold at least one - with individual phials/vials you can fetch only those parts you need from the storage rack instead. My through-hole storage already works like this, and I've found it to be very convenient.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 03:42:24 am by Lomax »
 

Offline KL27x

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4099
  • Country: us
Re: SMD R/C sets - help me get started!
« Reply #42 on: March 13, 2016, 05:51:37 am »
+1.

If you have an "engineering pillbox" with dozens of linked little boxes... uhh, how do you take out more than one or two parts at a time? Do you unlink all the boxes to get the one you want? Or do you clear your entire bench, put down a sheet of paper, then tip the entire thing over?
LOL.

What do you do when you add or remove a value?

Seems dumb to me.

I use test tube racks for resistors and caps and some LED and other small things. I can tap out a few parts. Or I can pour the entire tube of parts of each component I am currently working with into little dishes which can be arranged where they need to be on the bench. And then pour them back in with a funnel when I'm done. Because sometimes you need more than 1! The only drawback is you can't label little teeny test tubes from the top of the cap. But since you will probably store resistors and caps in some semblance of an order, this isn't a big deal.

Using little locking pill boxes for SMD parts makes about as much sense as using same to store your spices. I can just see myself picking up single pieces of fennel and salt out of a huge organizer to cook dinner.

If you want more options for test tube boxes that close and stack, Lomax, look at MTM ammo boxes. If you cross-reference the cartridges that they are compatible with, you can eventually figure out what size test tubes can fit in them.

For anyone looking to switch over to SMD parts, the way I started my collection was to start scanning lots of partial resistor reels on eBay. When I found a lot with a good amount of practical values for a good price, I bought it. When I need a new value I am missing, I will sometimes order an entire reel. For high precision (expensive) parts, I usually just order those if/when needed. The rest just accumulates from projects.

The larger the parts, the faster/easier they are to handle. The weight of them makes them easier to move around and release from tweezers. Getting down to 0402, it's hard to ever pick them up right with tweezers... and you need a stupid skinny needle on a pickup tool, which will be prone to clogging from paste/flux. 0603 is pretty much where I am landed, right now.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 06:23:24 am by KL27x »
 

Offline matseng

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 563
  • Country: se
    • My Github
Re: SMD R/C sets - help me get started!
« Reply #43 on: March 13, 2016, 06:51:49 am »
If you have an "engineering pillbox" with dozens of linked little boxes... uhh, how do you take out more than one or two parts at a time? Do you unlink all the boxes to get the one you want? Or do you clear your entire bench, put down a sheet of paper, then tip the entire thing over?
I have mine in separate 1 row of 12 boxes for a decade of resistors. I flip open the lids on the ones I want and then just either pick up a single with tweezers or if I need a bunch of them I dip my finger into the box and then sprinkle the ones that get stuck on the fingertip onto a piece of white paper on the desk. The excess I just sweep away - I purchase SMDs by the thousands for uncommon values and full reel for the ones I use a lot so the cost for just tossing half of them is negligible...
 
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 07:48:43 am by matseng »
 

Offline bson

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2269
  • Country: us
Re: SMD R/C sets - help me get started!
« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2016, 07:43:22 am »
Thanks for the tip, but I'm afraid I don't agree; I find individual containers easier to work with, allowing me to pick out just the parts I need without cluttering up my workbench with component trays. It's usually pretty crammed anyway. If you want to stock whole series of resistors and capacitors, you would typically need to have at least three of those boxes on your bench (resistors+capacitors+others) to populate a board, and enough space left to unfold at least one - with individual phials/vials you can fetch only those parts you need from the storage rack instead. My through-hole storage already works like this, and I've found it to be very convenient.
Well, you take the say < 10k resistor box and put it on the bench.  Then you pick the first value you want and place it on the board.  See where else you need the same value and place those as well.  Then move on to the next value < 10k.  When you have placed all values from this box you close it, put it away, and get the next box you need.  Place everything from it.  Then get the IC box and place uC, peripherals chips, op amps, regulators, and what else you need.  Get the assorted random stuff box and place LEDs, u.fl connectors, etc.  Put away that box.  Take out the hot air gun and place on the bench, turn it on.  Reflow.  Inspect.  Done.  Put away the hot air.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 07:45:51 am by bson »
 

Offline KL27x

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4099
  • Country: us
Re: SMD R/C sets - help me get started!
« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2016, 08:37:23 am »
Uggh. I'm not going to dig around the bottom of a square box to get an 0603 part out of it. Not with tweezers, not with fingers (with all their natural oil and/or sweat), and not with a pickup tool.

I treat SMD parts as a powder or liquid. Decant, use, pour them back.

The perfect little dish for SMD parts is the bottom of a coke can, BTW. Nice and shallow. Bright background. You can easily see and pickup your parts. The lip is just tall enough to absolutely contain your items. The concave bottom keeps the parts in the middle, preventing the need to dig around in corners for parts that might be hardly larger than a grain of salt. And yes, I do use 0402 or even 0201's when need dictates. The lack of corners and aluminum construction makes them easy to clean as needed (any bit of oil/flux/paste will cause your parts to clump like old parmesan!).

I have machined HDPE pucks to hold these can bottoms. They add weight and are perfectly stable/untippable. They also have a machined groove to stack one over the other, acting as lids for themselves. While a project is active, these pucks might stay filled with specific components for weeks/months. Give this a try; it's amazing.

For parts that need to stay in the tape, like SOT 23, whenever I go to the reel, I take off a large strip at a time, and cut these into strips of predetermined length, to fit on little plaques. I've recently discovered 2L bottle preforms are good for storing these strips while they get used up. The diameter is just a hair larger than a standard 1" forstner bit. It's easy to make a rack to hold these.

« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 09:20:08 am by KL27x »
 

Offline tggzzz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 19465
  • Country: gb
  • Numbers, not adjectives
    • Having fun doing more, with less
Re: SMD R/C sets - help me get started!
« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2016, 09:37:41 am »
I prefer keeping components in the reel/tape until I need them. At that point I peel back the plastic as far as necessary, and let them fall into a shallow heavy "tray" ~3in/75mm in diameter. I can easily use tweezers at that point, and the components stay grease free. Why?
  • Decanting them into a container is a waste of my life.
  • Retrieving them from a container is a waste of my life.
  • And most importantly I know that sooner or later I'm going to knock a container and lose the components - if I'm lucky they wont fall into other containers and won't find their way through equipment ventilation grilles etc
 
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline KL27x

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4099
  • Country: us
Re: SMD R/C sets - help me get started!
« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2016, 10:57:51 am »
Messing with reels and/or peeling back cut tape every time I need so much as a part? lol. no. For passives, I'll just tap out a few right onto the board and sweep away the excess after I'm done losing my first one or two. :) I cry once, dealing with the entire reel / cut tape in one go, for passives.

Decanting into a dish makes perfect sense if you are making several boards and/or using lots of the same passive. Don't have to count. Don't have to worry about losing a few. Put back what's left when you're done. Sure, it depends on quantity. But surely a lot of people use plenty of LED resistors, pullups, and decoupling caps. I usually have some of those in a dish at any given time.

I have never spilled a test tube. They have caps when you're done with them. My cat once knocked over a full test tube rack, and I didn't lose a part.  ;) I have never lost a part out of a coke can puck.

I've tried it your way. I've tried it other ways. Not waste of life.
Arguing on the internet is a waste of life. :)
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 11:07:23 am by KL27x »
 

Offline LomaxTopic starter

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 565
  • Country: eu
  • Minimalist
Re: SMD R/C sets - help me get started!
« Reply #48 on: March 14, 2016, 04:27:45 am »
What do you do when you add or remove a value?

That's a really good point! As my collection of parts has grown I've needed to rearrange my storage from time to time - the individual inserts used in the Raaco service cases makes that a doddle and since the labels are attached to each insert they follow the parts when moved to another case (or temporarily onto my workbench).

The only drawback is you can't label little teeny test tubes from the top of the cap

Oh I don't worry about that - I'm a labelling afficionado; I'm sure I can find a way to label the tops, and the tubes. I've got a Brother labelling machine which takes 6/8/10/12mm laminated tapes in different colours, and the software is database driven; I've made my own parts databases with extra metadata - including pin-outs for transistors & ICs - so I can run off labels for, say, the whole E12 (or E96!) series with one click. The goal is to provide a miniaturised data-sheet right on the label itself. I've attached a couple of examples so you can see what I mean - though it's all very much "work in progress"!

For parts that need to stay in the tape, like SOT 23

Why would SOT-23 parts need to stay on the tape? I intend to use the same system for these as for passives, though ideally the indivdual containers should be ESD safe.

Arguing on the internet is a waste of life. :)

Quite.

Edit: I see now that the Vcc and GND pins get the wrong symbols in the pinout list; some bug has crept in there :) And yeah, there's an empty slot in the transistor parameters - I haven't decided what the sixth parameter should be yet. Max operating temp or Ccb maybe?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2016, 05:05:55 am by Lomax »
 

Offline KL27x

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4099
  • Country: us
Re: SMD R/C sets - help me get started!
« Reply #49 on: March 14, 2016, 05:44:32 am »
Quote
Arguing on the internet is a waste of life. :)
I was talking about myself. :) I get worked up over nothing. Apologies.

The labels are nice. If you find a way to stick them to test tube caps, I'll be curious to see. I am thinking the caps I have are HDPE. 

Why SOT-23? Because when you take them out of the tape, most of them end up on their back, and I haven't developed the knack of effortlessly getting them right-side up, again. If you adhere the cut tape to a backing board with double-stick tape, you can pick them straight out of the tape with a pickup tool or tweezers. I think I first saw this in a mikeselectronicstuff video. The first time you need to place more than 10 of the same SOT23 part at a time, you will remember this.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2016, 05:55:45 am by KL27x »
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf