Suicide shower head teardown

[sarepairman2]

my physics teacher in high school would make 120VAC hotdogs. I thought it was a cool experiment.

So long you are not an idiot I don't think its too dangerous, so long you only energize the circuit when you stand far away from it . I think he had a two man rule with it, so another physics teacher had to be in the room when it was out.

[Don Hills]

I see all the horrified responses from Australians... Have you forgotten the type of electric kettle you used to have before the modern sealed element type?

Flick through the photos on this auction...
http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0034-3127463/artworks-and-antiques/retro-electric-kettle-by-npa-with-bakelite-lid-australia-c-1950

Some of them didn't have a resistor element, just a couple of closely-spaced plates. They depended on the conductivity of the water.

The auction says 50s vintage, but the type was still common in the 80s.

[oPossum]

Warm your food with electrified spoons and forks.

[oldway]

In Brazil, the true risks are not electrical showers :
A report on violence in Brazil says around 42,000 people were shot dead in 2012

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-32747175

And whe are speaking here of 3 people electrocuted dead in 2014 "manuseando ou concertando", this means using or repairing this kind of shower....Don't you think the tittle of this topic is almost stupid ?

[CatalinaWOW]

Clearly not an optimum design for safety, but also is clearly an absolute failure as an execution device.  It is actually a wonderful thing in most ways that our lives have become so risk free that something like this is actually a subject of horror.  But this obsession with safety is one reason the western world has essentially no manned space capability now.  Someone who wouldn't risk one of these shower heads couldn't possibly be launched in any space vehicle because even the best of them (the Suyoz) has a better than 1 in 1000 chance of killing you.

A bit of a red herring... manned space travel is a complicated and dangerous endeavor, whereas taking a shower shouldn't be either of those things.

My big problem with this gadget is that it relies on proper installation and/or a combination of fortuitous events to be safe.

Taking a shower isn't complicated, but it is relatively dangerous.  Check statistics for slips and falls.  Not too many deaths, but we are talking about 3 from the shower heads in brazil.  Maybe we should be reacting in horror at the idea that there is slippery soap and (gasp) water in showers?

The comments above about Americans horrified at European mains voltages, and Europeans horrified by American two prong wiring point out that perceptions of danger are far more powerful than the reality.

[vk6zgo]

I see all the horrified responses from Australians... Have you forgotten the type of electric kettle you used to have before the modern sealed element type?

Flick through the photos on this auction...
http://www.graysonline.com/lot/0034-3127463/artworks-and-antiques/retro-electric-kettle-by-npa-with-bakelite-lid-australia-c-1950

Some of them didn't have a resistor element, just a couple of closely-spaced plates. They depended on the conductivity of the water.

The auction says 50s vintage, but the type was still common in the 80s.

I've been around a very long time & I've never seen the "couple of close spaced plates" type.

The other type was ,indeed,common.
Several points:-

(1) As long as the lid was down,you had no access to the water or the element-----none of the ones I saw (hundreds) would allow insertion of the power plug into the kettle body without the lid being closed.
(Of course,if the lid is broken,or removed,all bets are off,as you could then touch the connections to the element.)

(2) Australian power points (GPOs) are all switched,so it was normal practice to turn them off as soon as the kettle boiled.

(3) You could pull the plug out of the jug while it was still switched "ON",and possibly "zap" yourself,if you weren't careful.
(The kettle plugs were a lot crappier than IEC ones,& having them come apart in your hand was a more likely shock cause than via the hot water.)

Compared to the so-called "cordless" ones common today,which present Mains voltages at the "base" unit,and rely on a bit of flimsy bent metal to disconnect Active if the kettle is removed (if the factory in the PRC didn't get it wrong),these old beasts come out quite well.


Back in the late 1950s,the normal type of Instantaneous Electric HWS was either a 3 phase box mounted in the roof,or a single phase one on the wall (in the bathroom) with Earthed metal piping to the shower head,

Around that time,there was a big sales push in West Oz to sell similar devices to that in the OP's posting,except they were all metal.
They just seemed to disappear off the market----whether the State Electricity Commission "lowered the boom" or they just weren't popular,I don't know.

[jitter]

Talking about the safety of plugs and sockets...

Looking at our own power plugs and sockets (1 and 1a), they are called "Schuko" (but most over here wouldn't know that name) and are pretty common in continental Northern Europe, but I've also seen them in the Costa del Sol (Southern Spain). They are pretty sturdy, but the French variant (1b) is even better because in that version the earthing springs in the socket are replaced with a decent and strong pin. Plugs can either be Schuko or French or a hybrid as in image 1.



I think I would vote for the French version if they were ever to be standardized across Europe. IMHO they are the best compromise between safety and size. Arguably the British plugs are better because L and N are in fixed positions, but they are enormous. Schukos can be plugged in either way (and sockets are usually wired randomly for L and N). I don't know about the French verison, but theoretically it could be made to have L and N in fixed positions.
The handy thing about the Schuko is that angled plugs can be reversed so that they don't clash with a neighbour.

These sockets are usually unswitched and capably of 16 A. Unplugging a powered device could create a spark, but because of the deep recess (> 1 cm on the Schuko, don't know about the French version) that doesn't present a problem.

[ciccio]

I've never seen one of these shower heads here in Italy, but I believe the reason is that standard home electrical supply is limited to 3 kW. That heater will trip the main current limiter.
Regarding old dangerous equipment, in my younger ages I've seen or used a lot of them, but then people (like my grand mother) were a lot more cautious with electricity.. Not like me: I liked to plug steel wool inside the socket, to see it bursting into flames,  the only insulation was provided by a wooden stick (I discovered the need for insulation the hard way).

Best regards

[tszaboo]

I think I would vote for the French version if they were ever to be standardized across Europe. I

I lived in countries which was using Schuko, now the French one. Schuko is better than the French. You dont need to check orientation when plugging in and it is more solid when plugged in. Also the French makes a mess with the plug packs and 90 degrees connectors.

The shower head... I guess I would take a shower sitting down.

In hot regions like most of brazil I would have expected to see more solar power, even if just a hose on the roof to warm up the water. Even if not that hot, I would prefer this over such an electric death trap. Also electricity usually is not cheap.

I've noticed that less developed countries tend to chose the less initial cost, when choosing a solution. A solar powered water heater would probably pay back in half a decade, but they choose the cheaper solution, and then they complain that they have no money. I think it has to do with financial education, so not really their fault.
I've talked to people in east Europe, living in not insulated house. They payed 4-5x the heating bill they should have. Insulating would pay back in 3 years. But they dont do it, because they have "no money" to make it. And loan is from the evil. Makes you wonder if life really is just about survival for these people?

[jitter]

I think I would vote for the French version if they were ever to be standardized across Europe. I

I lived in countries which was using Schuko, now the French one. Schuko is better than the French. You dont need to check orientation when plugging in and it is more solid when plugged in. Also the French makes a mess with the plug packs and 90 degrees connectors.

Well, okay, then my vote goes for the Schuko after all... I was under the impression that the earth pin would be a more solid connection because I've seen those earth springs pushed in the socket and folded over sometimes, but that's not common, and you always have two springs. Perhaps the French version isn't as deeply recessed and that's why the Schuko feels more solid.

The shower head... I guess I would take a shower sitting down.

Yeah, the droplet separation then becomes the isolation between you and the electrified heating element, but still...

[ivan747]

I haven't watched the video yet as I'm at work, and I will probably get shot for saying it... but there seems to be a bit of an exaggeration going on here...

These, as some of you seem to know, are common here in Brazil. I shower twice a day using one similar to this, 220V nominal voltage. It's actually a "fancier" one with an electronic heat control, but overall same concept.

1) I never felt any tingling. Maybe some of you are super sensitive...
2) If properly earthed, I don't see how it would be more dangerous than any other equipment. And you know what (now I will get shot), even without earthing it's not like end of the world... it's not that low of an impedance between a shower sprinkling water 30 cm above you and ground for you to certainly get deadly zapped if a wire goes loose inside. Again, of course it should be properly earthed just like anything else, but a metal chassis of any other equipment (say, a fridge) could potentially be much more dangerous may a wire come loose inside it and the chassis is not earthed
3) There are (or used to be) some with an isolated heater element - but they were less efficient and I think might have been discontinued

It was mentioned below about the fact that the earth wire is made of copper and it would get crusty / corroded and not perform - that may be a problem indeed but I think most I have seem are actually aluminum or some other metal less bound to cause problems. The ones that seemed to be copper did show corrosion definitely, but I remember measuring its resistance once as I had the same thought and it was not noticeably higher (I made very light contact with the side of the probe to make sure I was not poking through the corrosion).

I tried to find some info about deaths linked to these showers and couldn't find anything - that doesn't prove it's safe of course, but the fact these are broadly used here in Brazil and it doesn't seem to be that bad... corroborate my opinion it's not such a suicidal thing to shower in one of these. There are much easier ways to get electrocuted.

So bottom line - if properly installed, I don't think these are any more dangerous than anything else really.

Yes, when properly installed. The problem is you often can't find proper electricians (or any kind of technician) a lot of the time in countries like mine.
The third time an electrician came to service the shower heads, I tried to ask him about grounding. He didn't have much of a clue, he thought you could ground stuff to any metal piece that came into contact with the concrete in the house, for example, the metal chassis on which we mount switches and light bulb sickets (I don't know the name in english).

By the way, he was called because of a smell when the shower operated. Turns out the power wires that were installed with back electrical tape corroded over time and heated so much that the insulation was charred inside the tape.

I've found that the good carpenters, electricians, plumbers, metalworkers, mechanics and house painters are always very busy, but it's worth the wait.

[ivan747]

I do think this would be perfectly fine if:
a) It had a better design for the grounding points, resistant to corrosion.
b) Grounding is ALWAYS used
c) RCDs were mandatory in every fixture that that is less than 2 meters away from a source of water.

One problem is that people aren't aware of grounding and the dangers of not grounding things. The real problem is that electricians don't know either, or don't care.

This would also be perfectly fine if:
d) If the installation of such devices had to be carried out by certified electricians (keep dreaming, Ivan). Ideally, they could only be sold with a "prescription", sort of like medicine and the certification for electricians would be strict.

[ivan747]

Oh oh! I just remembered that about a year before switching to gas I had the showers earthed, or at least the one in the bathroom I use. The tingling went away. Earthing wasn't that great really, just the wires twisted together. Twist-on wire nuts were added later by me if I remember correctly. Still not ideal but much better anyway. Well, anyway, good riddance.

[AF6LJ]

This kind of shower head simply defies common sense.
For one thing you don't expose bare wires carrying current to water, there is an ion exchange that goes on and the wires get eaten up, even the NI-Chrome wires.

This is stupid on so many levels I cannot comprehend why this crap would be allowed.

[ivan747]

The circuit breakers were nailed in place on a piece of wood, not enclosed in a metal power distribution panel of any kind.  In fact, they weren't enclosed at all.  They were on the outside of the building; the only protection from the weather was that they were up high under the roof eave, so rain wouldn't directly fall on them unless there was wind.

I've seen some bad ones but this one's the worst I have ever heard of.

[ivan747]

- Power switch can't be actuated in working condition. You must choose the temperature before you use the shower.

Yes it can :p It's a bit harder but it's possible. And that's in one of the Lorenzetti models that look like the one in the video.

[Fungus]

my physics teacher in high school would make 120VAC hotdogs. I thought it was a cool experiment.

If you do it to a pickle they light up! (as in "light", not "fire")

https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=glowing+pickle&tbm=isch

[vinicius.jlantunes]

The comments above about Americans horrified at European mains voltages, and Europeans horrified by American two prong wiring point out that perceptions of danger are far more powerful than the reality.

I agree with you, said it before in this thread as well. Risk perception is personal. That's why I make my observations that I don't think this shower is unsafe, but don't try to convince anyone who disagrees.

I travel to the US frequently for work, and I feel just as horrified by people eating fried chicken out of buckets (cause plates aren't deep enough!) and drinking soda also from buckets, carrying 100 pounds asses around. I mean, don't they see the risks of obesity and junk food? And hearth diseases are the number 1 cause of death in this planet! How are those things allowed to be sold right?
Of course people will argue that "well it's your choice to eat that way", etc. Well, it's also your choice to install your shower properly, or just use a different type altogether. The parallels are many.

But hey, they think it's fine and feed their children sugar, just like I shower my daughter in one of these death machines every day and think it's also fine... in the end we just choose to be exposed to different risks I guess.

[oldway]

- Power switch can't be actuated in working condition. You must choose the temperature before you use the shower.

Yes it can :p It's a bit harder but it's possible. And that's in one of the Lorenzetti models that look like the one in the video.

But this, most Brazilians do not.

And there's a good reason for this: the previous models were full metal and almost never grounded, not only negligent, but also because the resistance was damaged very quickly if grounded.

With all-metal showers, we really took a violent electric shock if touched the shower or the switch in operation.

Then the Brazilians learned not to change the temperature in operation although with showers entirely of plastic, it does not takes any electrical shock.

In addition, the switch breaking capacity is reduced and should not be operated manually on load.

I think this is mentioned in the user manual.

[jitter]

The comments above about Americans horrified at European mains voltages, and Europeans horrified by American two prong wiring point out that perceptions of danger are far more powerful than the reality.

I agree with you, said it before in this thread as well. Risk perception is personal. That's why I make my observations that I don't think this shower is unsafe, but don't try to convince anyone who disagrees.

I travel to the US frequently for work, and I feel just as horrified by people eating fried chicken out of buckets (cause plates aren't deep enough!) and drinking soda also from buckets, carrying 100 pounds asses around. I mean, don't they see the risks of obesity and junk food? And hearth diseases are the number 1 cause of death in this planet! How are those things allowed to be sold right?
Of course people will argue that "well it's your choice to eat that way", etc. Well, it's also your choice to install your shower properly, or just use a different type altogether. The parallels are many.

But hey, they think it's fine and feed their children sugar, just like I shower my daughter in one of these death machines every day and think it's also fine... in the end we just choose to be exposed to different risks I guess.

Well, I guess you're right.
One could also argue that sugar and chocolate are actually substances one can become addicted to (and don't forget cafeine), and yet they're legal. I've also heard arguments that marihuana is a more benign substance than alcohol and yet it's alcohol that is legal when you're 18 or older.

Most of us choose to travel by car which certainly isn't the safest mode of transportation around. So yeah, over here, no one who knows how the suicide shower works would even think about using it and yet they would happily step into a car and hurtle along the motorway at 130 km/h only a couple of meters away from other traffic moving at more or less the same speed...

Crazy if you ask me, but I do it too...

[CatalinaWOW]

If you go through the mortality tables it is obvious that the things people worry about are not the top elements on the list.  While I am sure that the danger list varies around the world, and I am also sure that the worry list also varies around the world, I am quite sure that the correlation between the two lists is low worldwide.

[oldway]

This kind of shower head simply defies common sense.
For one thing you don't expose bare wires carrying current to water, there is an ion exchange that goes on and the wires get eaten up, even the NI-Chrome wires.

This is stupid on so many levels I cannot comprehend why this crap would be allowed.

Your position resembles that Marie Antoinette who was told that the peasants had no bread, and who responded: "Let them eat brioche."

Those showers are a cheap solution that work very well and kill nobody.

This is the reality, there are millions of showers of this type in operation in Brazil.

Millions of people in Brazil have no financial means to pay for something better.

How can someone who lives in the USA, who has never lived in poverty, can judge what is happening in another country where living conditions are totally different?

In the US, you can buy guns very easily, this for us is a much more serious insecurity than this shower ...

Guns causes many more deaths than this shower.

[Zero999]

Regarding the statistics: what's to say they're reliable? I doubt they're well recorded at all.

It's likely that shocks from these showers might not directly kill the person but they could cause them to slip and fall, resulting in severe injury/death.

Risks are a part of everyday life but it's crazy when they're unnecessary and can be mitigated so easily.

[jitter]

If you go through the mortality tables it is obvious that the things people worry about are not the top elements on the list.  While I am sure that the danger list varies around the world, and I am also sure that the worry list also varies around the world, I am quite sure that the correlation between the two lists is low worldwide.

Certainly it varies. I will never forget a remark made by Jeremy Clarkson on a Top Gear special in India. In it he says that the amount of traffic in India is roughly twice that of the UK and that one would expect to see double the amount of deaths. He then goes on to explain that that is not the case. Ik the UK about 3000 people a year die in traffic, in India it's a staggering 196,000 (i.e. 22 per hour)...

Found that fragment:


Watch the fragment and the scary madness of Indian traffic... and then imagine feeling the same stepping under a suicide shower...

[oldway]

Regarding the statistics: what's to say they're reliable? I doubt they're well recorded at all.

It's likely that shocks from these showers might not directly kill the person but they could cause them to slip and fall, resulting in severe injury/death....

With the older metal shower, you may receive an electric shock if the metal case was not grounded.
That's happens several times with me but I never fall or slip for this reason.
As I said, the contraction of the arm muscles don't let you in contact with the shower and current is interrupted.
With the all plastic shower, no conducting parts can be reach and there is no risk of electric shock...

Perhaps if you take a shower with salt water....

Measuring resistance between a metal case shower and water falling (tap water) :
- at 10 cm from the shower, resistance infinite. (no current at all in the body)
- at 5 cm from the shower, more or less 300K. (more or less 0.5mA current for 130Vac phase/ground)