Author Topic: TDA car-audio chip amp: purpose of output caps  (Read 38840 times)

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Offline dannyf

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Re: TDA car-audio chip amp: purpose of output caps
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2014, 01:30:03 pm »
Quote
you _NEED_ a capacitor in there to stop the transducer smoking.

I agree with the rest of your post. Just wanted to point out that there are other ways to block (or eliminate) DC, aside from capacitors. It just so that capacitors may be one of the easiest ways to block DC output.
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Offline ludzinc

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Re: TDA car-audio chip amp: purpose of output caps
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2014, 02:00:07 pm »
There is no virtual ground ... there should be no DC present on the amp output unless somethin' is eff'd up.

So, for no input (i.e. silence) what voltage do you think the output stage is applying to the speaker?

As for snaking blocked drains, pffft, been helping my Father in Law with his plumbing business for over 15 years now, doesn't make me any smarter the next bloke.
 

Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: TDA car-audio chip amp: purpose of output caps
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2014, 04:32:34 pm »
For no input (silence) the output of the amplifier is 6V. 
The large electrolytic capacitor quickly charges to (and holds) 6V and forms the function of a 6V LEVEL SHIFTER.
At no input (silence) the speaker sees 0V (after the capacitor charges in the first few milliseconds after power-up).

The speaker sees 6V less than the amplifier is outputting at any given moment.
The amplifier outputs 0 ~ 12V.  The speaker "sees"  -6V ~ +6V.

It is a mystery to me how this can be such a complex and baffling concept.   :-//
Our grandparents developed the method 100 years ago.
 

Offline Alex Eisenhut

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Re: TDA car-audio chip amp: purpose of output caps
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2014, 05:02:30 pm »
For no input (silence) the output of the amplifier is 6V. 
The large electrolytic capacitor quickly charges to (and holds) 6V and forms the function of a 6V LEVEL SHIFTER.
At no input (silence) the speaker sees 0V (after the capacitor charges in the first few milliseconds after power-up).

The speaker sees 6V less than the amplifier is outputting at any given moment.
The amplifier outputs 0 ~ 12V.  The speaker "sees"  -6V ~ +6V.

It is a mystery to me how this can be such a complex and baffling concept.   :-//
Our grandparents developed the method 100 years ago.

But they weren't plumbers. So obviously they got it wrong.
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Offline mikerj

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Re: TDA car-audio chip amp: purpose of output caps
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2014, 08:51:08 pm »
As far as " [pos/neg dual voltage] Obviously this isn't easily available in an automotive environment.  "
No! Cheap n' easy for any battery powered device. You can use a rail-splitter like Texas Instruments’ TLE2426 and virtual ground. More info:
http://tangentsoft.net/elec/vgrounds.html

Seriously, you are embarrassing yourself.  Why would you bother with the complexity, real estate and voltage loss of an active divider when for around the same component count you could create another channel and bridge tie the load?
 

Offline ludzinc

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Re: TDA car-audio chip amp: purpose of output caps
« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2014, 09:03:30 pm »
For no input (silence) the output of the amplifier is 6V. 
The large electrolytic capacitor quickly charges to (and holds) 6V and forms the function of a 6V LEVEL SHIFTER.
At no input (silence) the speaker sees 0V (after the capacitor charges in the first few milliseconds after power-up).

The speaker sees 6V less than the amplifier is outputting at any given moment.
The amplifier outputs 0 ~ 12V.  The speaker "sees"  -6V ~ +6V.

It is a mystery to me how this can be such a complex and baffling concept.   :-//
Our grandparents developed the method 100 years ago.

Great explanation Richard!
 

Offline 13hm13Topic starter

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Re: TDA car-audio chip amp: purpose of output caps
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2014, 02:52:13 am »
For no input (silence) the output of the amplifier is 6V. 
The large electrolytic capacitor quickly charges to (and holds) 6V and forms the function of a 6V LEVEL SHIFTER.
At no input (silence) the speaker sees 0V (after the capacitor charges in the first few milliseconds after power-up).

The speaker sees 6V less than the amplifier is outputting at any given moment.
The amplifier outputs 0 ~ 12V.  The speaker "sees"  -6V ~ +6V.

It is a mystery to me how this can be such a complex and baffling concept.   :-//
Our grandparents developed the method 100 years ago.
Great explanation Richard!
Yeah... "GREAT ..." ... "You tell 'em" ..."You go gurl" ...  :blah:
Typical EE good-ol'-boyz and UNEXAMINED circle-jerking patriotic banter  :bullshit:
Humans would've colonized the Andromeda galaxy by now if the gen-pop (y'all) were not so prolific. Oh, well .. they say talent and smarts skips a generation .... bright side: your kids'll be sharp as tacks. OUCH! But I support Logan's Run type sterilization  :box:
Gotta a challenge for all ya' EE's with that framed BSEE 'ploma on da wall ...
Get one of the TDA7273 chip-amps in the OP ... put it in a test ckt (breadboard) and use a speaker (or heavy-load dummy resistor).
IMPORTANT: don't install the emergency cap. Wire it direct from TD7273 out pin to load.
 Then, use a DMM or 'scope ... how many effin' DC volts do you see with NO input signal?
Go on punks ... make my day :-+
====
P.S.
Did you punks even bother to read the datasheet (p 8/10) that I LINKED and QUOTED previously:
Quote
OUTPUT STAGE
The output stage is a single ended type suitable to drive 4? loads. It consists of a class AB fully
complementary PNP/NPN stages short circuit protected.
A rail to rail output swing is achieved without need of boostrap capacitors. Moreover, the
external compensation is not necessary.
SO ...jackasses ... those caps ain't there for any other purpose other than blocking DC in case of emergency. Period. Full stop. The crowd goes wild. The fat lady has sung. And .. y'all degree'd EE's .... well you can go back to low-paying-job, kickstarter-milkin',  credit-card-maxed, massively-in-debt, house-foreclosed lifestyles .
If the concepts are elusive ... sleep on it .... or do you want mommy to kiss your boo-boos and tuck you in nighty-night? :-DD  :-+ :phew: :wtf:
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 02:55:10 am by 13hm13 »
 

Tac Eht Xilef

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Re: TDA car-audio chip amp: purpose of output caps
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2014, 03:06:37 am »
Well, I dunno about anyone else - but I'm getting a laugh out of this  :-DD
 

Offline ludzinc

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Re: TDA car-audio chip amp: purpose of output caps
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2014, 03:22:20 am »
A rail to rail output swing is achieved without need of boostrap capacitors. ... those caps ain't there for any other purpose other than blocking DC in case of emergency. Period. Full stop. The crowd goes wild. The fat lady has sung. And .. y'all degree'd EE's .... well you can go back to low-paying-job, kickstarter-milkin',  credit-card-maxed, massively-in-debt, house-foreclosed lifestyles.

 :-DD

A Bootstrap capacitor is used to pull up a signal to a rail (like when using old school non rail to rail op-amps).  Completely different animal to an DC blocking cap.

Yes, the TDA7273 has short circuit protection, but that doesn't mean it will deliver audio into a short (which a directly coupled speaker looks like). 

It's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.   Thanks for shouting it out loud 13mh13.
 

Offline Alex Eisenhut

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Re: TDA car-audio chip amp: purpose of output caps
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2014, 04:04:57 am »
For no input (silence) the output of the amplifier is 6V. 
The large electrolytic capacitor quickly charges to (and holds) 6V and forms the function of a 6V LEVEL SHIFTER.
At no input (silence) the speaker sees 0V (after the capacitor charges in the first few milliseconds after power-up).

The speaker sees 6V less than the amplifier is outputting at any given moment.
The amplifier outputs 0 ~ 12V.  The speaker "sees"  -6V ~ +6V.

It is a mystery to me how this can be such a complex and baffling concept.   :-//
Our grandparents developed the method 100 years ago.
Great explanation Richard!
Yeah... "GREAT ..." ... "You tell 'em" ..."You go gurl" ...  :blah:
Typical EE good-ol'-boyz and UNEXAMINED circle-jerking patriotic banter  :bullshit:
Humans would've colonized the Andromeda galaxy by now if the gen-pop (y'all) were not so prolific. Oh, well .. they say talent and smarts skips a generation .... bright side: your kids'll be sharp as tacks. OUCH! But I support Logan's Run type sterilization  :box:
Gotta a challenge for all ya' EE's with that framed BSEE 'ploma on da wall ...
Get one of the TDA7273 chip-amps in the OP ... put it in a test ckt (breadboard) and use a speaker (or heavy-load dummy resistor).
IMPORTANT: don't install the emergency cap. Wire it direct from TD7273 out pin to load.
 Then, use a DMM or 'scope ... how many effin' DC volts do you see with NO input signal?
Go on punks ... make my day :-+
====
P.S.
Did you punks even bother to read the datasheet (p 8/10) that I LINKED and QUOTED previously:
Quote
OUTPUT STAGE
The output stage is a single ended type suitable to drive 4? loads. It consists of a class AB fully
complementary PNP/NPN stages short circuit protected.
A rail to rail output swing is achieved without need of boostrap capacitors. Moreover, the
external compensation is not necessary.
SO ...jackasses ... those caps ain't there for any other purpose other than blocking DC in case of emergency. Period. Full stop. The crowd goes wild. The fat lady has sung. And .. y'all degree'd EE's .... well you can go back to low-paying-job, kickstarter-milkin',  credit-card-maxed, massively-in-debt, house-foreclosed lifestyles .
If the concepts are elusive ... sleep on it .... or do you want mommy to kiss your boo-boos and tuck you in nighty-night? :-DD  :-+ :phew: :wtf:

Haldol comes in grape flavor now.
Hoarder of 8-bit Commodore relics and 1960s Tektronix 500-series stuff. Unconventional interior decorator.
 

Offline 13hm13Topic starter

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Re: TDA car-audio chip amp: purpose of output caps
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2014, 04:15:36 am »
A Bootstrap capacitor is used to pull up a signal to a rail (like when using old school non rail to rail op-amps).  Completely different animal to an DC blocking cap.
But the "bootstrap" operation is precisely what is being pontificated by some of you. Go back to the OP. In it, I quoted one of  your kind:
"all push pull stages that operate only on a single rail power supply utilize a SERIES capacitor in series with the speaker, which acts a a voltage source during the negative half cycle."
This, like your other other peers' arguments, are FUNDAMENTALLY wrong. IOW, you're mistake-makers.
Set aside the armchair speculation and weak come-back diatribes. Do the real-wold experiment I outlined.
But I suspect you won't go there because of FEAR of EMBARRASSMENT in your pEErdom.
 

Offline Alex Eisenhut

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Re: TDA car-audio chip amp: purpose of output caps
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2014, 04:18:32 am »
A Bootstrap capacitor is used to pull up a signal to a rail (like when using old school non rail to rail op-amps).  Completely different animal to an DC blocking cap.
But the "bootstrap" operation is precisely what is being pontificated by some of you. Go back to the OP. In it, I quoted one of  your kind:
"all push pull stages that operate only on a single rail power supply utilize a SERIES capacitor in series with the speaker, which acts a a voltage source during the negative half cycle."
This, like your other other peers' arguments, are FUNDAMENTALLY wrong. IOW, you're mistake-makers.
Set aside the armchair speculation and weak come-back diatribes. Do the real-wold experiment I outlined.
But I suspect you won't go there because of FEAR of EMBARRASSMENT in your pEErdom.

Why don't you try it? First with no load. Show your work.
Hoarder of 8-bit Commodore relics and 1960s Tektronix 500-series stuff. Unconventional interior decorator.
 

Offline 13hm13Topic starter

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Re: TDA car-audio chip amp: purpose of output caps
« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2014, 04:30:08 am »
ludsinc defecated...
A Bootstrap capacitor is used to pull up a signal to a rail (like when using old school non rail to rail op-amps). 
RUBBISH!!!
From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootstrapping_(electronics)
Quote
In the field of electronics, a bootstrap circuit is one where part of the output of an amplifier stage is applied to the input, so as to alter the input impedance of the amplifier. When applied deliberately, the intention is usually to increase rather than decrease the impedance. [1] Generally, any technique where part of the output of a system is used at startup is described as bootstrapping.
And this is PRECISELY what Crowley and others (see OP) have INCORRECTLY "explained" the function of those outty caps to be.
Pfffft .... I'm iPaddin' this at 35k ft. And the 777's barf bags look very appealing. It ain't the bad weather ... ... the food, perhaps?  ... EExperverts ... so that's what I had! :palm:
 

Offline Alex Eisenhut

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Re: TDA car-audio chip amp: purpose of output caps
« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2014, 04:41:11 am »
ludsinc defecated...
A Bootstrap capacitor is used to pull up a signal to a rail (like when using old school non rail to rail op-amps). 
RUBBISH!!!
From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootstrapping_(electronics)
Quote
In the field of electronics, a bootstrap circuit is one where part of the output of an amplifier stage is applied to the input, so as to alter the input impedance of the amplifier. When applied deliberately, the intention is usually to increase rather than decrease the impedance. [1] Generally, any technique where part of the output of a system is used at startup is described as bootstrapping.
And this is PRECISELY what Crowley and others (see OP) have INCORRECTLY "explained" the function of those outty caps to be.
Pfffft .... I'm iPaddin' this at 35k ft. And the 777's barf bags look very appealing. It ain't the bad weather ... ... the food, perhaps?  ... EExperverts ... so that's what I had! :palm:

Yikes, if you're actually in a plane, perhaps you're one of those people that can't handle a drink at altitude. There's really no reason to go off the handle like that. It's beyond embarrassing.

I see thick ty-raps in your near future...
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Online sarahMCML

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Re: TDA car-audio chip amp: purpose of output caps
« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2014, 04:47:27 am »
Well, I dunno about anyone else - but I'm getting a laugh out of this  :-DD

I'm with you on this one - it's hilarious!

I think the poor guy is confusing high side N-Channel Enhancement MOSFET bootstrap capacitor circuitry with single supply loudspeaker coupling cap. circuits.

 

Offline 13hm13Topic starter

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Re: TDA car-audio chip amp: purpose of output caps
« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2014, 04:58:20 am »
Alex defecated a stoooooopid, typical trope:
Why don't you try it? First with no load. Show your work.
Who says I ain't already tired it and seen my work.

Belch .... burp .... 'scuse me.

 May be I'll YouTube the results. But I'm pretty lazy .... I mean, years of EEV foruming ...and all I gots to prove fer it are sixty-some lousy posts.
I mean I figgers some of you EE lifers, with your multi-K posts and Super Duper Contributor accolades, and zest for 'sperimentin', would've taken the bait by now?
But we're all in touchscreen, gesture-physics, arm-chair-theorizing mode I suppose...
Now get out those DMMs and prove yourselves right ... I mean those BSEEs -- framed above your urinal -- denote Bachelor's of Science and not ... well ... BS, right?

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Offline BradC

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Re: TDA car-audio chip amp: purpose of output caps
« Reply #41 on: October 14, 2014, 05:00:01 am »
Well this is a bit of a surprise. I honestly thought people like this were a product of bad American TV. I had no idea they existed in the real world.

I'd be afraid to let him anywhere near a plunger let alone a soldering iron!
 

Offline Alex Eisenhut

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Re: TDA car-audio chip amp: purpose of output caps
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2014, 05:04:59 am »
Alex defecated a stoooooopid, typical trope:
Why don't you try it? First with no load. Show your work.
Who says I ain't already tired it and seen my work.

Belch .... burp .... 'scuse me.

 May be I'll YouTube the results. But I'm pretty lazy .... I mean, years of EEV foruming ...and all I gots to prove fer it are sixty-some lousy posts.
I mean I figgers some of you EE lifers, with your multi-K posts and Super Duper Contributor accolades, and zest for 'sperimentin', would've taken the bait by now?
But we're all in touchscreen, gesture-physics, arm-chair-theorizing mode I suppose...
Now get out those DMMs and prove yourselves right ... I mean those BSEEs -- framed above your urinal -- denote Bachelor's of Science and not ... well ... BS, right?

===
Quote from TRON (1982)
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/Tron
I Don't Pay You to Think: Sark tells an underling, "Don't think anymore. I do the thinking around here."

I haven't seen it and that chip is quite old. I have none.

Please try it when you're not so tired and report what you see with no load first.

I think I have a TDA2002 somewhere, how about I try that here?
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Offline David_AVD

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Re: TDA car-audio chip amp: purpose of output caps
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2014, 05:32:18 am »
Seems that some people will say anything to not admit they are wrong.  :-DD
 

Offline iampoor

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Re: TDA car-audio chip amp: purpose of output caps
« Reply #44 on: October 14, 2014, 05:52:37 am »
Put more grease on the pipe next time you stick it up your ass 13ohm.  :-DD
 

Offline Simon

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Re: TDA car-audio chip amp: purpose of output caps
« Reply #45 on: October 14, 2014, 06:54:01 am »
I think this topic has reached the stage of "enter at your own risk" but please remember that there is a difference between having a good laugh and turning it nasty.

Have Fun!
 

Offline salbayeng

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Re: TDA car-audio chip amp: purpose of output caps
« Reply #46 on: October 14, 2014, 06:54:13 am »
My doctor says I need to reduce my stress, so a good laugh is helpful  :-DD
I'm going to chip in here, not because I have a Master of EE hanging on the wall surrounded by Patents, (which I do)
And not because I can clear a blocked septic,  (and yes I have done this, and hats off to all you plumber dudes who do this for a living).
But because I recently used a TDA7056B in a design , these are mono, linear class AB,  BTL ,  5w output,  designed for 12v single supply operation, the neat thing is they have a voltage controlled volume input, just add a capacitor and no start up plops or clicks when the audio is muted. They also have an unbalanced current detection so if the speaker were inadvertently shorted to ground it would shut down.  (Annoyingly if  the TDA7056A is connected to a microphone, and you tap the microphone , it also shuts down).  A bit of searching reveals the chip was originally the TDA7056, then TDA7056A , then TDA7056B , with subtle improvements along the way, you have to wonder whether the earlier versions had magic smoke issues.

The reason for the post is the make the following observation, that seems to have been skirted around by a few:
 Normally with a BTL amplifier, each speaker terminal is connected to an amplifier output,  but you can't do this with stereo headpones as they share a common ground, so you do need a decoupling capacitor with headphones.  So most of the TDA datasheets will show directly connected speakers , and capacitively connected headphones. So next time when you flick from page to page or datasheet to data sheet  and notice the capacitors seem to come and go randomly, have a look and see if the load is a speaker or headphones.


I've just looked in my resistor kit, and lo and behold , in the 13ohm drawer, there are 100 bandoliered resistors:  brown-orange-black-gold-brown-red , which is exactly the same quantity as 20 years ago, so just goes to show how useful 13ohm resistors are.
 

Offline salbayeng

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Re: TDA car-audio chip amp: purpose of output caps
« Reply #47 on: October 14, 2014, 07:02:41 am »

I'm iPaddin' this at 35k ft.
Obviously suffering hypoxia , try travelling inside the cabin next time  :-DD
 

Offline 13hm13Topic starter

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Re: TDA car-audio chip amp: purpose of output caps
« Reply #48 on: October 14, 2014, 07:47:36 am »
But because I recently used a TDA7056B in a design , these are mono, linear class AB,  BTL ,  5w output,  designed for 12v single supply operation, the neat thing is they have voltage controlled volume input, just add a capacitor and no start up plops or clicks when the audio is muted.
In some audio equipment with LINE OUT stages, the DC emergency coupling caps are replaced (and/or augmented) with muting transistors. DIY audio modders often remove these to allow a cleaner signal path. As I noted earlier, servos may also be used ... or even trimming via a variable resistor.. .This mod of an audio D/A processor ditches the emergency caps (because they compromise audio fidelity) and, indeed, adds a variable-resistor topology (one simply trims this R so signalless output is as close to 0.0V as possible).
Here's the schematic (You may have to register at DIYAUDIO.com to access the full schematic JPG of the mod.):


This EEVBlog discussion has overstretched to 4+ pages. The query in the OP was clear yet the majority of the responses given have not been authoritative or convincing, much less topical.
The main "contentious" issue being the part emboldened in the direct quote from the OP :
Quote
A mild debate has arisen elsewhere as to what function(s) the OUTPUT CAPS serve (2200uF, C9-12 in schema above).

Are they to BLOCK DC and/or (as contended by another) "all push pull stages that operate only on a single rail power supply utilize a SERIES capacitor in series with the speaker, which acts a a voltage source during the negative half cycle." ?
 

Offline 13hm13Topic starter

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Re: TDA car-audio chip amp: purpose of output caps
« Reply #49 on: October 14, 2014, 08:01:57 am »
...you can't do this with stereo headpones as they share a common ground, so you do need a decoupling capacitor with headphones.  So most of the TDA datasheets will show directly connected speakers , and capacitively connected headphones. So next time when you flick from page to page or datasheet to data sheet  and notice the capacitors seem to come and go randomly, have a look and see if the load is a speaker or headphones.
There are countless DIY audio mod threads that discuss this issue (direct coupling vs. transformer coupling vs. capacitor coupling ... output (decoupling) caps are ROUTINELY removed from all sorts of devices. I've done this mod myself to an Asus soundcard:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/587297/asus-xonar-hdav1-3-mods/30

Or simply Google "audio capacitor coupling".
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 08:03:34 am by 13hm13 »
 


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