Author Topic: The uBeam FAQ  (Read 285466 times)

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Offline StillTrying

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #575 on: December 08, 2016, 03:46:19 pm »
"A phased array is just another fancy name for a directional antenna, except that you can steer it electronically."

Yep, that's what I was thinking. In this case a flat US array about 30cm x 30cm facing a target about 8cm x 7cm about 2m away.

"It does prevent losses."

Nope! After some thinking and googling, I've still come to the same conclusion that a transmitting phased array only produces losses. It doesn't matter how well you focus the main beam on to the target the power there will always only be a fraction of the power you've put in - unlike a parabolic reflector where you can get near 100% of the power into the main beam.
I think the only way to recover more of the transmitted power would be for the receiver to cover all of the steerable area at all times, but then you don't have any steerable area, and it's not the case here.

The wavefronts aren't to scale for US in this wiki, but it shows the affect of how little of each wavefront is actually heading towards the target/focus.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Phased_array_beam.svg

...Still thinking....
http://www.olympus-ims.com/en/ndt-tutorials/intro/advantages

« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 03:49:39 pm by StillTrying »
 

Offline zapta

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #576 on: December 08, 2016, 05:18:30 pm »
Nope! After some thinking and googling, I've still come to the same conclusion that a transmitting phased array only produces losses.

That was also my thinking but it requires a proof. The phase shifts and amplitudes of the array elements are chosen to active cancellation on the side beams but this is like canceling heating with air conditioning, the total is neutral but takes a lot of energy.

This is of course a hand waving style explanation and a more rigorous analysis is required. It's possible that the canceling energy from one element actually reduces the power of the other elements by creating synchronized pressure wave that affects the traducers' impedance.

But, even of the phase array has lower efficiency, having the power directed still has safety benefits because it reduces the overall sound energy in the room.
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Offline coppice

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #577 on: December 08, 2016, 07:09:04 pm »
After some thinking and googling, I've still come to the same conclusion that a transmitting phased array only produces losses.
That will come as quite a surprise to radar engineers.
unlike a parabolic reflector where you can get near 100% of the power into the main beam.
That will also come as a surprise to radar engineers.

I think it would really shock them to find that all these years of pushing parabolic reflectors (and offset parabolics, cassegrains, etc) aside, in favour of the superior beam forming performance of passive phases arrays was a misdirection.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #578 on: December 08, 2016, 07:13:11 pm »
Nope! After some thinking and googling, I've still come to the same conclusion that a transmitting phased array only produces losses.

That was also my thinking but it requires a proof. The phase shifts and amplitudes of the array elements are chosen to active cancellation on the side beams but this is like canceling heating with air conditioning, the total is neutral but takes a lot of energy.
Heat is Gaussian noise. Radar signals from all the nodes of a phased array are coherent. Its a completely different situation. If you think a large amount of energy is lost in the beam forming of a phased array, where does it go? Conservation of energy says it can't just vanish.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #579 on: December 08, 2016, 07:30:21 pm »
Heat is Gaussian noise. Radar signals from all the nodes of a phased array are coherent. Its a completely different situation. If you think a large amount of energy is lost in the beam forming of a phased array, where does it go? Conservation of energy says it can't just vanish.

Look at the numbers I posted above. Saturation of the air occurs at quite small distances. It's not just a beam forming problem, the losses are in driving the air molecules.
If it was a simple beam forming problem then uBeam would have been a cake walk and done long ago (Perry wasn't the first with the idea, by several decades)
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 07:32:27 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline coppice

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #580 on: December 08, 2016, 07:35:44 pm »
Heat is Gaussian noise. Radar signals from all the nodes of a phased array are coherent. Its a completely different situation. If you think a large amount of energy is lost in the beam forming of a phased array, where does it go? Conservation of energy says it can't just vanish.

Look at the numbers I posted above. Saturation of the air occurs at quite small distances.
If it as that simple then uBeam would have been a cake walk and done long ago (Perry wasn't the first with the idea, by several decades)
Did I dispute that in any way? I responded to someone saying the energy is not focussed into the main beam of a phased array. For suitably low power levels it is. For high power levels, where non-linearities become serious, everything falls apart, regardless of which beam forming technique is used.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #581 on: December 08, 2016, 07:53:56 pm »
For high power levels, where non-linearities become serious, everything falls apart, regardless of which beam forming technique is used.

And that's the trick, they are, by necessity, pumping in huge amounts of power.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #582 on: December 08, 2016, 08:00:54 pm »
For high power levels, where non-linearities become serious, everything falls apart, regardless of which beam forming technique is used.

And that's the trick, they are, by necessity, pumping in huge amounts of power.
Well, of course. What's your point?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #583 on: December 08, 2016, 08:01:34 pm »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #584 on: December 08, 2016, 08:09:36 pm »
For high power levels, where non-linearities become serious, everything falls apart, regardless of which beam forming technique is used.
And that's the trick, they are, by necessity, pumping in huge amounts of power.
Well, of course. What's your point?

Just validating your point. I'm not trying to argue.
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #585 on: December 09, 2016, 04:22:53 am »
I'm surprised ppl are thinking that when out of phase wavefronts meet, the energy just disappears forever. The wavefronts just pass through each other, and eventually after traveling, will meet other in phase wavefronts and become usable energy again.
In the case of RF, at great distance from the transmitter.
In the case of US, after bouncing off the near target surface and filling the room with hotspots and coldspots, I bit like sitting in a microwave oven but without the rotating table - so keep moving.  :)
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 04:56:47 am by StillTrying »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #586 on: December 09, 2016, 04:53:43 am »
In the case of US, after bouncing off the near target surface and filling the room with hotspots and coldspots, I bit like sitting in a microwave oven but without the rotating table - so keep moving.  :)

Keep moving your phone around looking at the charging power on screen. Stand very still when you find a hotspot...  :-+

So much better than those pesky cables! :popcorn:

 

Offline edy

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #587 on: December 09, 2016, 05:59:22 am »
So the uBeam team has grown, more investors are piling in the money, they have a large team working on it. They've got former HP and Tektronix engineering executive Larry Pendergrass joining in:



And here is their team:



So what gives? Do they have something or not? Are they just throwing a dungheap of money (from big investors) at what we call a type of Google "Moon-Shot" wall to see if something sticks? I thought this thing was BUSTED a long time ago? That to deliver the power you are looking at needing to charge a device, you'd fry everyone's eardrums or fry their innards in the process?

I don't get it.... Have people LOST THEIR FRIGGIN' MINDS?  :palm: :-//  Wasn't uBeam already trying to do this for years and failed? This seems to be old news already:

http://www.eevblog.com/2014/08/07/ubeam-ultrasonic-wireless-charging-a-familiar-fish-smell/

Seems like it's going the same way as Solar Roadways, Airing, Batterizer...
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 06:03:10 am by edy »
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Offline amspire

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #588 on: December 09, 2016, 09:53:13 am »
That to deliver the power you are looking at needing to charge a device, you'd fry everyone's eardrums or fry their innards in the process?
Haven't you read the safety page on the UBeam website?

Quote
Completely safe, even when standing directly in front of the beam

One of the reasons they give is that:

Quote
Unlike radio frequency emissions, ultrasound decays rapidly in the air.

Which is great ... as long as you aren't trying to transmit power via ultrasonics.  |O

The last comment is interesting as the decay is not that rapid at 50kHz or 100khz. Just 1 or 2 dB per meter. Are they thinking of using 1MHz ultrasonics?

 

Offline Delta

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #589 on: December 09, 2016, 10:19:26 am »
That's the elephant in Meredith's room:  If there's not enough power in the air to cause harm, then there ain't enough to charge a phone...
 

Offline l0rd_hex

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #590 on: December 09, 2016, 01:10:56 pm »


The other day I heard a 'celebrity' on the TV talking about "building my brand" (he'd released a perfume). Now, all this guy has ever actually done is to be the son of a very famous footballer.

Sometime in the last few years some idiots have decided that a 'brand' is worth something on its own, rather than representing the goodwill acquired over many years by a well operated business. Consequently people talk about 'brand building' as an end in itself, rather than providing a better product, service, working environment etc. Many young people (particularly Americans, especially from the West Coast) have bought into this, not knowing that a 'brand' or reputation once meant something more than mere surface appearance. Furthermore, 'brand' and personal reputation have become conflated as if one's reputation is some sort of commodity. I suspect that Ms Perry has bought into all this and is working hard at 'building her brand' not understanding that for it to be worth anything there has to be some substance underneath the gloss.

It's funny that you say this because it looks like Perry is hawking her Dad's snake oil skin care maintenance regime lotion.. stuff..

https://twitter.com/meredithperry/status/801891676885110784
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #591 on: December 09, 2016, 01:34:57 pm »
So the uBeam team has grown, more investors are piling in the money, they have a large team working on it.

I've heard the opposite. Most/all of the original acoustics experts have left. Two VP's of engineering have came and gone.

Quote
They've got former HP and Tektronix engineering executive Larry Pendergrass joining in:

They must have paid him a lot.
Shame there isn't much he can do without acoustics expertise.

Quote
And here is their team:


An article a while back who toured their big LA headquarters said it was like a ghost town.

Quote
So what gives? Do they have something or not? Are they just throwing a dungheap of money (from big investors) at what we call a type of Google "Moon-Shot" wall to see if something sticks? I thought this thing was BUSTED a long time ago?

It was. But the investors will never admit that, they can't, they have put other people's money into it. Best they can hope for is it dies of natural causes they can blame on X instead of admit they were duped by a dog'n'pony show.

Quote
Seems like it's going the same way as Solar Roadways, Airing, Batterizer...

It's guaranteed by the laws of engineers and market economics.
 

Online Bud

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #592 on: December 09, 2016, 02:24:17 pm »
What is that weird structure in the background...?
 

Offline l0rd_hex

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #593 on: December 09, 2016, 02:28:55 pm »
Another bout of inspire-arreah from the Scam-a-llama herself!
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Offline djos

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #594 on: December 09, 2016, 02:30:40 pm »
Another bout of inspire-arreah from the Scam-a-llama herself!

I think I just puked a little in my mouth!  :palm:
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Offline l0rd_hex

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #595 on: December 09, 2016, 02:35:20 pm »
I think I just puked a little in my mouth!  :palm:

Just your mouth? I wish I were that lucky...
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Offline edy

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #596 on: December 09, 2016, 02:50:04 pm »
That's one crazy Twitter tag line....

Quote
Founder & CEO @uBeam. Power-suckler on the teat of life. Uses a machete to cut through red tape.

See the attachment...  I like the Voyager diagram/schematic she uses as a background.


Have you seen this posting?
https://twitter.com/meredithperry/status/639891833431162880

Quote
In hospitals, bacteria can spread via electric outlets. With @ubeam, hospitals will be cleaner & safer for patients.

I give her credit for one thing... She's got some interesting Twitter feed (browse the photo postings for a taste, I've included some screenshots below). Certainly not something you'd expect from a $23 million company CEO. She's flying everywhere, meeting all these famous people.... Presidents, Celebrities, etc. They have a space "manufacturing facility" they call in Santa Monica. It's great to spend other people's money when there is no accountability and you can have lawyers basically set up the corporation so you are not personally liable for anything when it loses all the money. Pictures of her with Bill Clinton, Barak Obama, lots of famous celebrities, lots of her with her pet pig, some selfies, pictures of people charging their phones and saying how uBeam will change all that... and inspirational quotes. She's quite an accomplished person and done a lot of stuff! A bit of NSFW type pictures as well thrown in.  :-DD 
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 03:13:02 pm by edy »
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #597 on: December 09, 2016, 03:02:49 pm »
Another bout of inspire-arreah from the Scam-a-llama herself!

Still zero information about the result, just about her personal struggles ::)
She wouldn't have had to struggle if she just published results to prove her tech is at least somewhat viable.
 

Offline edy

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #598 on: December 09, 2016, 03:58:41 pm »
I've attached some examples of typical stuff from Meredith Perry's Twitter media feed. There's not much in there about the actual progress on uBeam. Judge for yourself. She's having one heck of a time at this stage in her life, globe-trotting and rubbing noses with the rich & famous. I'm sure it's very exciting to be part of a multi-million dollar venture. I'd love to see the development milestones.... Research results... Test cases... More proof of concepts. Are they ever planning on making that available?

Her brother the profane rapper Buckwheat Groats https://www.facebook.com/thegroatsofbuckwheat/ seems to be quite an interesting character too. He seems to be earning an honest living making music, performing and selling albums. Good on him! http://benperrymedia.weebly.com/bio.html  He sounds like a funny guy if you like that kind of comedy....



The addition of HP and Tektronic Engineering executive Larry Pendergrass to the mix builds confidence in the company, but is it only to satisfy investor need? Could they be looking to shift their position in the company or sell their shares perhaps to "pass on the buck" and get out while they can. Here's what Pendergrass writes about uBeam (https://medium.com/@meredithperry/former-hp-and-tektronix-engineering-executive-larry-pendergrass-joins-ubeam-b08597f45a24#.8t8mohuxm):

Quote
“Having looked carefully at the technology and the business, I have every confidence that this company will change the way we think of charging our devices. The progress that has been made is tremendous. The skill level in the team is very impressive. And I am confident that my business, engineering, and science experience will support the development and commercialization of this vital new technology.”

They also add the following:

Quote
We’re also excited to announce a new addition to our Technical Advisory Board, Chaired by Matthew O’Donnell, PhD, a world renowned expert in ultrasound and Dean Emeritus of Engineering at the University of Washington.

I wonder if there is a point where people lose an objective view of reality and start to be surrounded by, or create their own environment that positively reinforces their delusional aspirations even when it flies in the face of rational scientific principles. When investors get involved, "yes"-men start to spout inspirational B.S. and young people start jumping in to milk the ride for money as long as possible... the project takes on a life of it's own and perpetuates in a kind of bubble. I must admit though.... I do give credit to uBeam for *NOT* using crowd-sourcing to obtain funding. It is one thing for investors to give money, it is quite another for crowd-sourced money to be scammed out of people (like Airing, Batteriser, Solar Roadways, etc.).

The uBeam, as crazy as it may sound, at least is operating under established legal frameworks and with parties who should know the risks and were prepared to take them. For that reason, I say if Meredith Perry wants to burn the money... let her burn it for the next 10 years. Maybe they'll discover something else along the way that actually is viable and turn them a profit. Otherwise, I wish her luck and if she wants to stick up her middle finger to all these investors along the way.... serves them right.  :-DD
« Last Edit: December 09, 2016, 04:26:53 pm by edy »
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #599 on: December 09, 2016, 05:30:19 pm »
The addition of HP and Tektronic Engineering executive Larry Pendergrass to the mix builds confidence in the company, but is it only to satisfy investor need? Could they be looking to shift their position in the company or sell their shares perhaps to "pass on the buck" and get out while they can. Here's what Pendergrass writes about uBeam (https://medium.com/@meredithperry/former-hp-and-tektronix-engineering-executive-larry-pendergrass-joins-ubeam-b08597f45a24#.8t8mohuxm):

Quote
“Having looked carefully at the technology and the business, I have every confidence that this company will change the way we think of charging our devices. The progress that has been made is tremendous. The skill level in the team is very impressive. And I am confident that my business, engineering, and science experience will support the development and commercialization of this vital new technology.”

So this guy joins after 5 years of development and all he's got to say between the lines is basically "it has potential"?
Nothing about how he's seen the technology and it's amazing and it works etc, just talk about "progress", "development", and commercialisation"?
You'd expect that kind of talk for a newly founded company, not one that's had 10's of millions of dollars invested over 5 years and some of the best experts in field working for them (now all since left?)
 


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