Author Topic: The uBeam FAQ  (Read 277935 times)

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Offline cdev

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #750 on: May 30, 2017, 11:05:20 am »
Is "A world without wires" a play on "A world without walls" which is a neoliberal slogan?
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #751 on: May 30, 2017, 11:13:36 am »
I may be mistaken but they appear to have cunningly airbrushed/defocused the transducer stack for some reason.

It's so you can't see the MA40S4Ts. You can tell by the shadows that the hexagons aren't flat.

Offline PaulReynolds

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #752 on: June 01, 2017, 01:54:00 pm »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #753 on: June 01, 2017, 02:19:50 pm »
They're hiring!
https://www.cybercoders.com/jobs/details/258227/
Allow me to summarize:
"If you are a God of Engineering and don't like your $500k+ job with Apple, come work for us for $200k. You get to break boundaries!"

Page gone now.
Did anyone capture it?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #754 on: June 01, 2017, 02:21:16 pm »
Are they sure it's a good idea to fill the walls with pictures of people who understood the laws of physics. :)

They're hiring!
https://www.cybercoders.com/jobs/details/258227/

What You Need for this Position
More Than 15 Years of experience and knowledge of:

- Electrical engineering design/engineering/build/test
- Acoustic transducer driver (or low frequency power amplifier) & interface electronics
- Electronics simulation (eg SPICE), design optimization, and model iteration using experimental data
- Mixed signal (analog & digital) ASIC design
- Battery charging and power management electronics
- Microcontroller programming and architecture
- PCB design, engineering, build, and test experience
- Key differentiator is specific experience in all common methods of PCB fabrication and assembly (etch/mill/stencil/pick-place/etc)
- Design AND build experience with high density PCBs
- Chip-on-board & flex circuit design experience
- Consumer electronics design experience
- ASIC Design & ASIC House Selection
- Electronics production and manufacturing experience
- Experience in selecting EE components, writing detailed electrical specification of the system interface, and test plan documents
- Communication of design requirements to fabrication houses
- Define Design for Manufacturing (DFM) guidelines
- Prototype build, test, and debugging
- Working with vendors/suppliers/manufacturing partners
- Experience in analyzing trade-offs between performance, manufacturability and cost
- Clearly articulate, track, and drive project objectives in a dynamic, fast-paced environment

 :-DD

WOW!  :o
That means they don't have anyone left in house to do any of those things  :scared:
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #755 on: June 01, 2017, 02:23:34 pm »
Are these things available in the shops yet ?  :) :horse:
https://twitter.com/meredithperry/status/867278941710626816

The caption should read "and you have to hold it just like this to get it to work as claimed"
 
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Offline BrianHG

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #756 on: June 01, 2017, 02:40:18 pm »
LOL, a battery brick that size would recharge my phone for at least a month, no beaming transmitter needed, it would be portable and work in the outdoors...

__________
BrianHG.
 

Online Dubbie

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #757 on: June 01, 2017, 03:37:44 pm »
Don't worry, this is just the prototype. Perry has had a vision of a receiver only the thickness of a sticker.
She has also had a vision of Murata offering uBeam transducers for 3c each. They do this because they are impressed at her visionary leadership.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #758 on: June 01, 2017, 03:44:18 pm »
LOL, a battery brick that size would recharge my phone for at least a month, no beaming transmitter needed, it would be portable and work in the outdoors...

It very likely does contains a storage battery. IIRC a storage element is in their patent drawings.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #759 on: June 01, 2017, 03:51:10 pm »
My take on this
http://liesandstartuppr.blogspot.com/2017/05/whats-in-picture.html

Off the shelf transducers?
Didn't they have the world's best ultrasonic transducer experts working for them, and a world class in-house transducer manufacturing facility?
 

Offline PaulReynolds

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #760 on: June 01, 2017, 04:02:34 pm »
My take on this
http://liesandstartuppr.blogspot.com/2017/05/whats-in-picture.html

Off the shelf transducers?
Didn't they have the world's best ultrasonic transducer experts working for them, and a world class in-house transducer manufacturing facility?

I couldn't possibly comment on any of that...
 

Offline PaulReynolds

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #761 on: June 02, 2017, 01:22:46 am »
 
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #762 on: June 02, 2017, 10:38:06 am »
The 2 videos were interesting sort of, at least they've got somewhere after $30m and 6 years, - about $0.1m and 6 months worth to be exact. :horse:





I wonder if you could estimate the US frequency from the interference pattens seen on the LED viewer.

Perry flipped the switch on a large white box, about the size of a ceiling tile. A quiet hum filled the conference

That'll be the cooling fans inside the 2kW transmitter box.

The technology is at least a year away from commercialization

You could say that again.

One challenge could be the perception that always-on ultrasound could be unhealthy to humans.

No worries, they've now added 'optical tracking lasers' to it.  :palm:
 :horse:

« Last Edit: June 02, 2017, 11:45:35 am by StillTrying »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #763 on: June 02, 2017, 11:25:49 am »
Life comes at you fast!
http://liesandstartuppr.blogspot.com/2017/06/someone-was-paying-attention.html

Quote
Technically, it's still hard to say exactly what's being done, and there's not much to add beyond my earlier articles. The video does make it look like off-the-shelf Murata devices are being used and focused into a tight beam straightforward. Efficiency and safety questions are dodged.

No beamforming?
In the video she specifically says there is beamforming and device tracking.

Not that it makes a difference of course, the whole idea is 100% guaranteed doomed to failure just based on the efficiency and basic air saturation physics.
How any investor cannot understand this basic fact is amazing.
 

Offline PaulReynolds

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #764 on: June 02, 2017, 04:10:31 pm »
Life comes at you fast!
http://liesandstartuppr.blogspot.com/2017/06/someone-was-paying-attention.html

Quote
Technically, it's still hard to say exactly what's being done, and there's not much to add beyond my earlier articles. The video does make it look like off-the-shelf Murata devices are being used and focused into a tight beam straightforward. Efficiency and safety questions are dodged.

No beamforming?
In the video she specifically says there is beamforming and device tracking.

Not that it makes a difference of course, the whole idea is 100% guaranteed doomed to failure just based on the efficiency and basic air saturation physics.
How any investor cannot understand this basic fact is amazing.

That's not what I meant to imply, poor wording on my part if that's what you've taken from it. I mean there is beamforming, but simplified to center line only. (I've updated the post wording to make it clearer)

Imagine a regular phased array with N elements on each side, so you need to address N^2 elements, which if you have a device of N = 30 to 45 is a lot of separate drivers to allow you to steer the beam anywhere. Now imagine instead that you have a collection of concentric rings each 1 element in width, all of the elements in that ring tied together so they are driven by the same signal, but each ring can be driven differently. In that case, instead of N^2 drive elements you have (roughly) N/2, so you end up with a drive electronics reduction at a factor of 2N which is pretty substantial in a large array. The downside to that is that your control over the focus is only down the center line of the system and lateral steering is not possible - however you also ensure that you have really strong focus along that line. Basically, if you can live with the limitations, it's a lot easier and cheaper (electronics wise) to build. It's common in therapeutic ultrasound where you can mechanically scan the transducer to move the focus laterally. e.g.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/253749971_Design_and_Fabrication_of_a_Wide-Aperture_HIFU_Annular_Array_Transducer_for_the_Treatment_of_Deep-Seated_Tumors


 

Online Howardlong

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #765 on: June 02, 2017, 05:18:44 pm »
Some points on the videos...

o The LED panel demos were quite interesting.

o We have no idea what functionalities the black bricks on the back of the phones offer: obviously energy collection is one (you'd hope), but is there some energy storage too, and something to manage device tracking?

o There looks to be a camera on top of the square array with an NVIDIA logo below it. What does that do? Is it just for R&D, or is it part of the device tracking functionality for multi beam forming?

o That's a very big box of electronics in the beam forming video.

o How efficient is it?

o How much power is needed to get the green power indicator to show "charging"? And was it really charging, or just dribbling in a bit of power?

o The key question: how long does it actually take to charge the phone?
 

Offline PaulReynolds

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #766 on: June 02, 2017, 06:41:30 pm »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #767 on: June 02, 2017, 07:22:28 pm »
Some points on the videos...
o How efficient is it?
o How much power is needed to get the green power indicator to show "charging"? And was it really charging, or just dribbling in a bit of power?
o The key question: how long does it actually take to charge the phone?

Nope, the key question is always the efficiency.
Basic air saturation physics limits this to sub 1%, or maybe a few % if you are talking ideal conditions, and let's get real, it will never be ideal conditions in practice.
No charging technology will ever be the least bit practical in the market at this sort of efficiency. Nor should it be, on a mass scale it would be awful for the environment and would likely end up being banned.
 

Online Howardlong

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #768 on: June 03, 2017, 06:50:41 pm »
A few further observations

http://liesandstartuppr.blogspot.com/2017/06/what-does-it-take-to-switch-phone.html

Interesting. I've just tried a selection of Android phones. The on-screen charging indicator seems to come on (and stay on, i.e., not just an initial attempt, sanity check, go away again) at wildly different USB charging currents. One "charges" at 2mA!
 

Online Howardlong

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #769 on: June 04, 2017, 02:26:21 am »
I am also wondering if those LED panels showing the beam patterns are active or passive considering the reasonably high ambient light.
 

Offline PaulReynolds

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #770 on: June 04, 2017, 03:48:47 am »
A few further observations

http://liesandstartuppr.blogspot.com/2017/06/what-does-it-take-to-switch-phone.html

Interesting. I've just tried a selection of Android phones. The on-screen charging indicator seems to come on (and stay on, i.e., not just an initial attempt, sanity check, go away again) at wildly different USB charging currents. One "charges" at 2mA!

It's definitely device dependent, though 2mA is insanely low - 10mW?!

iPhones do seem to need more, so it's worth keeping an eye in the demos of when iPhones and used and when Android is used. It was an Android phone that was bought at the store and they do seem to use them more.
 

Offline PaulReynolds

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #771 on: June 04, 2017, 03:52:44 am »
I am also wondering if those LED panels showing the beam patterns are active or passive considering the reasonably high ambient light.

That's a very, very, very good observation and something I've been wondering myself.

The LED panel is cool, but also shows the size of the beam (remarkably large given the ~8mm wavelength) and that grating lobes do exist.

Interesting fact: Did you know that if you measure a grating lobe angle from the main beam, and know the transmitter element pitch, you can calculate the frequency of the wave?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2017, 04:11:56 am by PaulReynolds »
 

Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #772 on: June 04, 2017, 04:26:33 am »
I am also wondering if those LED panels showing the beam patterns are active or passive considering the reasonably high ambient light.

That's a very, very, very good observation and something I've been wondering myself.

The LED panel is cool, but also shows the size of the beam (remarkably large given the ~8mm wavelength) and that grating lobes do exist.

Interesting fact: Did you know that if you measure a grating lobe angle from the main beam, and know the transmitter element pitch, you can calculate the frequency of the wave?
I think it's quite plausible  that the panel is passive - could  be as simple as a bunch of transducers with a LED across each. If they couldn't do this without active help then they stand zero chance of charging a phone.
They have screwed up by using red rather than white LEDs though, as the latter would have given much more light for the power
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Online Howardlong

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #773 on: June 04, 2017, 08:16:11 am »
I am also wondering if those LED panels showing the beam patterns are active or passive considering the reasonably high ambient light.

That's a very, very, very good observation and something I've been wondering myself.

The LED panel is cool, but also shows the size of the beam (remarkably large given the ~8mm wavelength) and that grating lobes do exist.

Interesting fact: Did you know that if you measure a grating lobe angle from the main beam, and know the transmitter element pitch, you can calculate the frequency of the wave?
I think it's quite plausible  that the panel is passive - could  be as simple as a bunch of transducers with a LED across each. If they couldn't do this without active help then they stand zero chance of charging a phone.
They have screwed up by using red rather than white LEDs though, as the latter would have given much more light for the power

I tried it a few hours ago, admittedly I didn't spend long, but I could not get an LED to illuminate visually within mm of a transducer transmitter/receiver setup, and with amplitude maximised on a scope. I was driving the tx with 40kHz at 20V p-p square wave from an AWG.

Transmitter is a Murata MA40S4S that I had in stock, I didn't have the receiver so used another of the same device again as an rx. Not sure how much that matters (I am a total noob on acoustics).

I'm and RF guy, but the wavelength at 40kHz is very short acoutically, even though it's VLF to an RF boy, and so phase changes and nulls/maxima are easily shown on a scope, quite an eye opener.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2017, 08:28:39 am by Howardlong »
 

Offline PaulReynolds

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Re: The uBeam FAQ
« Reply #774 on: June 04, 2017, 09:49:23 am »
I am also wondering if those LED panels showing the beam patterns are active or passive considering the reasonably high ambient light.

That's a very, very, very good observation and something I've been wondering myself.

The LED panel is cool, but also shows the size of the beam (remarkably large given the ~8mm wavelength) and that grating lobes do exist.

Interesting fact: Did you know that if you measure a grating lobe angle from the main beam, and know the transmitter element pitch, you can calculate the frequency of the wave?
I think it's quite plausible  that the panel is passive - could  be as simple as a bunch of transducers with a LED across each. If they couldn't do this without active help then they stand zero chance of charging a phone.
They have screwed up by using red rather than white LEDs though, as the latter would have given much more light for the power

I tried it a few hours ago, admittedly I didn't spend long, but I could not get an LED to illuminate visually within mm of a transducer transmitter/receiver setup, and with amplitude maximised on a scope. I was driving the tx with 40kHz at 20V p-p square wave from an AWG.

Transmitter is a Murata MA40S4S that I had in stock, I didn't have the receiver so used another of the same device again as an rx. Not sure how much that matters (I am a total noob on acoustics).

I'm and RF guy, but the wavelength at 40kHz is very short acoutically, even though it's VLF to an RF boy, and so phase changes and nulls/maxima are easily shown on a scope, quite an eye opener.

From the Murata data sheet (link below) at 20Vp-p you are getting 120dB so around 20 Pa RMS, that's less than 1 Watt/m^2, and it's 1cm in diameter so maybe 50 to 80uW acoustic out if you are lucky. Not enough to power an LED at all. The transmitter and receivers are slightly different IIRC but not so much you shouldn't still see a response. I'd just look at the result on the oscilloscope. Drive them about 5x harder (100 Vpp, 25x power), then put 10 of them together, and you might (accounting for less than perfect reception efficiency) light an LED.

Acoustic wavelength at 40kHz is around 8.5mm. Yes, you'll get minima/maxima in the near field.


http://www.murata.com/en-sg/api/pdfdownloadapi?cate=&partno=MA40S4S
 


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