Warning Do not get a qualification with ICS Learn in the UK (BTEC L3)

[AndyC_772]

If he gets a higher qualification, then there's no benefit at all to be had by mentioning an earlier failure to achieve a lesser one.

I'm not at all convinced that "obvious technical competence + failure to achieve a qualification" gives a better impression than obvious technical competence alone.

A failure is always going to have an element of doubt associated with it. Did he just have a bad day? Personal issues at the time? Maybe. But there's always the possibility that, when it comes down to it, he's just not that good at solving problems and getting them right all the way to completion, or perhaps he gives up too easily in the face of difficulty. Why sow that seed of doubt in an interviewer's mind if there's no need to?

[GK]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Whinging%20Pom

[bwat]

If he gets a higher qualification, then there's no benefit at all to be had by mentioning an earlier failure to achieve a lesser one.

I'm not at all convinced that "obvious technical competence + failure to achieve a qualification" gives a better impression than obvious technical competence alone.

A failure is always going to have an element of doubt associated with it. Did he just have a bad day? Personal issues at the time? Maybe. But there's always the possibility that, when it comes down to it, he's just not that good at solving problems and getting them right all the way to completion, or perhaps he gives up too easily in the face of difficulty. Why sow that seed of doubt in an interviewer's mind if there's no need to?

I'm a uni drop out and it's never kept me back. Of course I'm not talking about an area which requires chartered status (law, architecture, medicine, engineering, etc.) but I can demonstrate I've got the skills and that seems to count for a lot. When I've been the interviewer, I've never looked at qualifications though a lack of qualifications might have prevented the interview from happening. Also, I've recommended plenty of others I've worked with to employers and not known a thing about their educational backgrounds.

[Simon]

Failure ? who ever said I failed ? having corrected the many mistakes in the main course material I refused to correct the assignment as well. My aim is to ultimately go for a HNC and then a HND, I don't need this shitty L3 BTEC to get on a HNC because anyone with relevant experience is acceptable to the HNC course. This L3 is for people who just want to impress, it has no real value at all in the real world. The knowledge this L3 gives you will not enable anyone to design jack shit, it's not even hobby level, most beginners on this board could exceed the knowledge (or lack of) in the course.

[Codemonkey]

The knowledge this L3 gives you will not enable anyone to design jack shit, it's not even hobby level, most beginners on this board could exceed the knowledge (or lack of) in the course.

How do you know ? You failed to complete the course.

I suspect you're going to struggle even more with the HNC not having the base level of knowledge that the lower level course provides. Will you declare that to be a mickey mouse course as well and throw your toys out the pram ? Unless you sort out the holier than thou/know it all attitude , you're already setting yourself up for another fail. I hope to be proven wrong however.

[Simon]

I read one whole module of the L3, it was certainly lower than the level of knowledge I have, due to the errors, and I mean technical errors I feared reading any more of it. It was not just me complaining about the course but other students too especially when I explained the errors they started to understand things and how bad it was. A total lack of the promised tutor support did not help either.

A HNC would certainly have something to teach me.

Lots of people seem to be making lots of assumptions, it's like the pot calling the kettle black ?

[bwat]

You failed to complete the course.

But not all failures are created equally. I once dropped an astronomy course because I couldn't make out the colours very well on the star chart and so couldn't really tell how the stars were moving. Everybody else was steaming through the tasks at the tutorial but I'm like "Eh?" Was that a failure? It was a failure to complete the course but I don't class it as anything other than a bad fit between my eyes and the coursework.

I also failed a maths exam at uni with 0% then got over 90% on the resit after the summer. Was that a fail or a pass or both?

I think it's up to Simon to be honest with himself and ask himself if he's failed or not. What we think is neither here nor there.

[Simon]

I refused to continue the course, I explained to my boss who is well aware of my abilities that it was not of a very high level, he thought it was quite a decent level but he's not been involved in education of late. I even said before I took it that I wondered if it would be more than "heres a voltage regulator" he said he would expect it to be higher than that but it turned out that vague familiarity with components to a dodgy standard is the best you get. I have an email from my tutor in which he agrees with every comment i made about the technical accuracy of the course. I'd not be surprised if both tutors who seemed to be working part time from home and possibly retired gave up working with the company as they seemed more concerned about the problems I was raising than ICS and I'm sure they don't want to spoon feed the entire class who started asking me for help.

[Yago]

Some shenanigans went on in the HND course I did way back when.
Basically similar, in that a test was done on material that had not been covered in the course (so far).
Unfortunately for the college, I alone passed (with a distinction too).
They took me to one side and asked if I would let the whole thing go quiet and the results be buried.

Meh, I agreed and got on with things.

[Simon]

I don't mind lateral study on a HNC/HND so much as the qualification is worth while, but I'm not going to be the guy composing poetry in a playschool trying to learn the alphabet. I have a friend that told me that his HND was not great. The one I'm planning is a HNC with Teeside university by distance learning, again by distance learning, I just need to sort out my maths first as I don't have the qualification in maths they ask for so may need to do a maths course or take a little paper if they think I can hack it. I phoned them and asked and they said to just fill in an application form and explain my situation and they would work something out for me. Once the HNC is done I can look at a HND. I do struggle to some extent with study and I'm well aware of that and I'm certainly not stupid, that is why I didn't mind doing the L3 at first but not on these terms.

I got this about a minute ago from a fellow student on the course (well not fellow anymore as I left):

Hello Simon ,
                    Sorry to bother you. I was wondering if you managed to get your refund for the course? if so can you please let me know who to email to do the same as i have just about had enough of it now.
 
Many thanks

[Berni]

Sorry to hear about your trouble with it, I agree that that assignment should have explicitly said it needs an unobtainium MOSFET manufactured by nude virgins to work. Just putting a typical MOSFET in the schematic assumes that any N channel device works. Or even better give it some biasing to make it work with any typical MOSFET out there, while they are at it also add a resistor to ground to stabilize the operating point and make it much more likely to work rather than shooting for the right bias in the dark.

But it is fairly typical for school to teach useless and/or outdated things, occasionally there is even a mistake. So far I have not seen a school that actually spits out capable electronics engineers out the end of there programs. Some of the theory stuff is occasionally useful later, but in order to learn to design circuits from scratch, decode how stuff works from schematics etc you have to do hobby electronics on your own. There is a lot to learn from the magic smoke you let out from a component on a breadboard during some random messing about over a weekend.

As for school just do what they want so you get the piece of paper in the end. Yes that paper only proves you ware persistent enough to get trough the classes, but some people think that the paper actually proves you know something about electronics. Show up at your job interview with your latest weekend project instead, but have the piece of paper ready if they think its actually worth something.

[IanB]

I just quickly reviewed the course specification and objectives for the BTEC L3 in electrical/electronic engineering.

This is a vocational course aimed at high school age students of about 18 (sixth form in the UK, grade 12 in the USA, for example). It is similar in size to two A levels and might be taken by students who are not on the more traditional academic track. It's stated purpose is to introduce some introductory and conceptual knowledge of electronics sufficient for the student to progress to higher level study at university, or to enter the workplace as a junior employee where they will receive further training.

As set out the course may therefore be expected to convey conceptual knowledge in a broad context, and will make many simplifications along the way. One does not expect students at this level to perform detailed design calculations or advanced analysis.

One of the stated goals is to "give learners the opportunity to develop a range of skills and techniques, personal skills and attributes essential for successful performance in working life."

I think this is important. Getting through the course demonstrates an ability to get through a course of study, follow instructions, do the work, comprehend what is being required and not get tied up in what is not required.

I have a feeling you have rejected the course because it is "beneath you". But I think you have rejected an opportunity to get familiar with the education system and get into the mode of how to study and pass tests. This may be to your disadvantage when you move to more advanced courses of study.

[Simon]

There is vocational and there is factually incorrect. For such a simple course the quantity of errors is unreal. Obviously my boss is certainly not ware of how basic vocational is. The information taught was so basic that it was not worth learning, you might as well learn it as though it was nothing on a higher level qualification.

I do infact care more for what i have learnt so far on my own and by doing my own projects. if I was going to an interview it would be clear that I'm not some bloke with a bit of paper and nothing else. The whole reason I am being asked to take qualifications is because my employer is finding it cheaper and faster and more essential to have an inhouse person than rely solely on a subcontractor who's mistakes I started correcting (seems he's never heard of bypass capacitors and screwed up plenty of designs). We once got in a fix where my boss had failed to understand some of the components he was using properly and our expensive long lead time control box from our subcontractor was therefor not going to work. I let them argue about it and try to work out a solution (the suby quite rightly needed money and time to work on it again that we did not have or want to pay). After a week I chipped in and offered to create an additional circuit to "fix" matters. My boss agreed as we were about to go overdue on delivery. I made the circuit and it all worked fine. I was then asked to create a more production intent version on a PCb rather than a breadboard and things started to roll from there. during this time I continued to study in my own time and during down time at work on how to program AVR's in C rather than use the arduino and I am now creating circuits for my employer on PCB's when I am asked. At this point my boss asked me if i was willing to take some qualifications and that he was aware of how much it would benefit me as he knows that I am very keen.

This from what I had 2 years ago when I was told on offering that I'd never do any electronics for them as they had a subcontractor to handle it and i would only do mechanical design. I am also the reference point for anyone in the company who needs some electrical knowledge even if it's how to get 5V from 24 to get a brush-less motor to go at the right speed (zener and resistor).

[Berni]

Hmm 18 that sounds quite late. I had to calculate things involving phase shift and such on circuits with capacitors and inductors along with parametrizing values in discrete amplifiers and such back when I was about 16 or 17.

I had to deal with teachers that had no clue of the subject and occasionally said something that was just plain wrong, but then again there was a few great ones that could actually teach the subject in an intesting way and are in general great people to talk to. They are often the ones that are truly passionate about electronics and teach it for the love of the field not just for the paycheck at the end of the month.

For the clueless in it for the paycheck baboons you just have to find the path of least resistance trough there subject so you get over with it using the minimal amount of work.(bonus points if you can straight out cheet trough the tests)

[IanB]

There is vocational and there is factually incorrect. For such a simple course the quantity of errors is unreal. Obviously my boss is certainly not ware of how basic vocational is. The information taught was so basic that it was not worth learning, you might as well learn it as though it was nothing on a higher level qualification.

I don't recall you giving any examples here of something that was factually incorrect. What I recall were things that were either simplified or things that were presented in a way different from your understanding.

For you this course should have been the warm up exercise, the gentle jog round the park before the race begins.

Your reaction has not come across well at all, which is why you are not getting a lot of sympathy on this board.

Example of good reaction: "Oh, I see they have simplified this a lot. I get why they did that. Let me go with the flow."

Example of bad reaction: "Arghh! This is all wrong! It's not like that at all! My pedant meter has gone off the scale!"

Part of it would be getting back into the formal education system. When was your last contact with formal education? Maybe GCSEs?

It takes a certain mindset to get through the system and be a successful student. You need to learn not always the technical material, but sometimes just learn how to study. To adopt a sense of humility, to buckle down to it, to overcome the hurdles, and to get things done as asked. (Just the same as the workplace, actually.)

I'm afraid that if you think an HNC or HND will be different, you may be in for a surprise.

[IanB]

Hmm 18 that sounds quite late. I had to calculate things involving phase shift and such on circuits with capacitors and inductors along with parametrizing values in discrete amplifiers and such back when I was about 16 or 17.

Yes, but this is a vocational course, not an academic course. It is for students who would have left school at 16 because they did not shine academically (for example did not do well at mathematics). It is giving such students a different option for further study.

[Berni]

Ah, we don't have such a option here. In that case I would have expected more hand holding sort of approach like give all resistor values and pinouts and such right next to the schematic.

[cjo20]

The BTEC Level 3 certificate (which I believe is 'extended' in the case of electronic engineering) gives 60 UCAS points when you gain a distinction (20 points for a pass).

60 UCAS points is equivalent to a D at A level, or an A at AS level. 20 points is  an E at AS level.

AS levels are typically started at 16 and finished at 17 in the normal education system; I was still (just about) 16 when I sat my AS exams, 17 by the time the results came through. This is not meant to be a technically detailed course. And the distinction between "wrong" and "simplified" is extremely important.

[IanB]

Ah, we don't have such a option here. In that case I would have expected more hand holding sort of approach like give all resistor values and pinouts and such right next to the schematic.

Perhaps like this?

[G0HZU]

I'm a bit bored so I built this circuit quickly.

It uses an old school BF981 dual gate N channel depletion mode MOSFET transistor which is probably older than most forum users... 

By tying the two gates together it effectively becomes the circuit in figure 1c in the assignment. I used a 1k resistor in the drain and something 'big' in the gate (220k ohm?)

The supply is 12V and it runs at about 6mA drain current. See below for the crudely built circuit and the waveforms on my scope. It gives a reasonable amount of voltage gain and is fairly linear. Basically, this circuit in figure 1c would have been an exam question in the 1970s or maybe the 1980s.

I'd probably be asking the tutor where I was supposed to buy a suitable device in 2014 because I doubt there will be much choice especially if you want a device that biases with just a few mA at 0V Vgs.

you are still assuming the course was going to teach me all you know, like i said, the sum total on mosfets and mosfet amplifiers was 3 A4 pages - with big diagrams.

I'm really just addressing your (incorrect) claim that the FET circuit in Task 1(3)c is somehow 'not' a proper amplifier circuit. Your claim that the amplifier circuit in fig 5.5 is drawn incorrectly seems to be the basis of your rather angry video on Youtube.

In reality I think you need to admit your assessment of the circuit was incorrect and that it is indeed a valid amplifier circuit because it shows an old school N channel D MOSFET. You got confusing results in your youtube video because you used an E MOSFET instead. This device has a different circuit symbol to the D MOSFET device shown in the assignment.

However, I can sympathise with your error here because I think a lot of modern students will fall into the same trap as yourself. But your course tutor might have been a bit offended by your video. Maybe you should take it down or produce a new version?

I suspect that the course material is based on old material and the reason that you didn't get supplied with the (effectively obsolete) FET in question is because they are so hard to find in 2014

Back when I was a student in the 1980s these devices were sometimes (casually) called single gate IGFETs but even then they were going obsolete in favour of the dual gate flavour of the device. So strapping gate 1 and gate 2 together was a common workaround even in those days if you wanted a small single gate D MOS FET which had a drain current of a few mA at 0V Vgs bias.

So maybe the fact these parts are hard to source in 2014 is the reason why they ask you to describe the operation of the circuit rather than directly instruct you to build it. If this course material dates back a few decades then maybe there was a time when they supplied you with the FET?

But the bottom line is that this old school D MOSFET is the simplest to understand because it can operate with 0V bias and still produce a reasonably linear signal.

Therefore, the sample answer given by IanB back in post #24 would probably have achieved high/full marks. Some people write books on these devices but I think IanB tried to give the 'expected' answer for high/full marks in your course

[Berni]

Yes  like that, but I was referring to the FET amplifier one. The BJT one I think is an excellent example of showing that a BJT can be used to switch a large current using a small one.

[IanB]

Yes  like that, but I was referring to the FET amplifier one. The BJT one I think is an excellent example of showing that a BJT can be used to switch a large current using a small one.

Remember, the student was not asked to build the FET amplifier, the student was just to give a qualitative explanation of its operation.

[zapta]

Simon you come as an intelligent person that can do well in life. Here are humble advices from somebody that went through the process a few times.

If you want to get diploma X,  do whatever you need to achieve it and don't let your ego distracting you .

If on the other hand diploma X is worthless, don't even bother to register for it.

Arguing about home assignments will get you nowhere. It's like full throttle in neutral.

Keep your eyes on the ball and you will do well.

[G0HZU]

I found a SPICE model for a modern dual gate N channel D mode MOSFET and tied the gates together and produced the circuit below:

You can see it's effectively the same circuit as the one in the assignment with 0V bias at the gate. You can also see that this works quite well as a small signal amplifier because the output waveform is still a nice sine wave. It works in a similar fashion to my BF981 version I put together on my workbench

It works because the BF998 is an N channel depletion mode device and will have the required idle drain current of just under 2mA when both gates are at 0V so it will operate in a reasonably linear manner even for very tiny signals of a few mV.

The reason I posted up this simulation is because the BF998 is a modern part that you can buy from Farnell or ebay etc etc.

However, it is a tiny SMD device so not suitable for breadboards! But you would at least be able to demonstrate the operation of the old school single gate N ch D MOSFET circuit in the assignment if you wanted to.

Note: The 4.7k resistor R2 in the drain has been chosen as a fairly optimal value for the SPICE model. In reality, you may find that a 'real' BF998 will have a higher idle current than the SPICE model so you would have to reduce the value of R2 accordingly or else the device will saturate like a switch if the real BF998 has an idle current of 5mA (at Vgs =0V) for example.

Obviously, that's why my BF981 bench circuit in my earlier post has a 1k resistor in the drain. It has an idle current of about 6mA so I achieve a voltage drop of about 6V across it to place the drain voltage at half the supply rail voltage

[G0HZU]

Hope nobody minds me posting all this stuff up but here is the transfer characteristic of the BF998 from its datasheet.

You can see that if you tie both gates together at 0V you can expect an idle current of just over 2mA at Vgs = 0V?

You can also see that the black transfer curve that crosses this point is fairly linear for small changes in gate voltage. But you also have to take into account that you will be changing BOTH gates in sympathy so the transfer will be higher than just the basic curve slope shown.