Author Topic: Batteries and inverters going off grid with solar.  (Read 51481 times)

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Offline SimonTopic starter

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Re: Batteries and inverters going off grid with solar.
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2015, 02:40:35 pm »
smaller inverters will be cheaper, high power design in a pain in the ass, it's not just a case of using more powerful components
 

Offline TheElectricChicken

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Re: Batteries and inverters going off grid with solar.
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2015, 02:46:52 pm »
smaller inverters will be cheaper, high power design in a pain in the ass, it's not just a case of using more powerful components

Indeed. It looks to me though, that using 3x 2kw units brings the price to $600 rather than 6kw @$1300, which begs the question why use a single unit, have redundancy. There is something I'm missing.
 

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Re: Batteries and inverters going off grid with solar.
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2015, 02:53:47 pm »
the large units will be properly designed, that is also a grid tie inverter you linked too and they cost more. The bigger the unit the more goes into the design and usually the higher the quality.

I will be going off grid so standard pure sinewave inverters will be fine. I have 4 circuits in my house so I can and will be splitting them down into different inveters. My lights now all LED only need 100W my sockets don't usually need to be supplying more than 3KW so a 5KW unit per floor will be fine, the only problem I see is running the 1KW microwave and 3 KW kettle together.
 

Offline TheElectricChicken

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Re: Batteries and inverters going off grid with solar.
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2015, 03:46:17 pm »
I guess it is the same thing with lumber, people think of the longest piece that they'll need then buy only that length for all the lumber, bring it home and proceed to cut it all into smaller lengths. It's that kind of premium.

They just add up to the total and get that number of kilowatts for the whole house.

I like redundancy. I'd rather blow a cheap inverter up and then have 4kw to cook dinner and google another one with the lights on than wonder what to do in the dark when 6kw fails.

But I not buy inverter, UPS secondhand for $50 has that covered. I think of getting the solar controllers and such.

I also want to make solar storage cooker with barrel of salt or stone that stays hot 24/7 for cooking for free.
 

Offline ralphd

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Re: Batteries and inverters going off grid with solar.
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2015, 09:28:18 pm »
smaller inverters will be cheaper, high power design in a pain in the ass, it's not just a case of using more powerful components

Indeed. It looks to me though, that using 3x 2kw units brings the price to $600 rather than 6kw @$1300, which begs the question why use a single unit, have redundancy. There is something I'm missing.
I think you didn't look at the details.  "Warehouse clearout" and "1 month warranty".
Could well be out of spec units that failed testing...
Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth. Einstein
 

Online splin

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Re: Batteries and inverters going off grid with solar.
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2015, 01:16:41 am »
Going off grid using solar PV alone isn't easy in the UK - we don't get a lot of sun in the winter so you need a lot of panels and big batteries and even then you'll almost certainly need a generator to get you through the darkest parts of the winter.

There is an excellent tool to help you determine suitable panel and battery sizes based on historical solar insolation data: http://re.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pvgis/

Select your location on one of the maps and then select the 'Stand-alone PV' tab. As an example, I tried a London location and created the attached spreadsheet which works out the lowest solar panel + battery cost for three scenarios:

a) The batteries never completely empty
b) The batteries become fully discharged on 2.5% of days annually
c) The batteries become fully discharged on 3.5% of days annually

I selected module inclination of 70 degrees to maximize production in winter when you most need it, 1000W solar panel and increased the battery size until the results showed the battery just became empty on 0%, 2% (ie. 2.5%) and 3% (i.e 3.5%) days respectively.

Selecting a battery cutoff limit of 0% (fully discharged) should be OK because the deep discharge batteries you'd need can be 100% discharged, if not recommended, and would only be fully discharged on a few days a year at most. In reality you would need to use the generator on those days anyway.

I've also attached a spreadsheet of prices of various lead-acid batteries in Europe which calculates the lifetime cost per kWh. I created it a while ago but the prices seem to still be unchanged. You might be able to buy cheaper traction batteries for fork-lift trucks but they don't often have online price lists. You can also buy second-hand fork lift batteries which don't have enough capacity left for a full shift at a warehouse but may be fine for your use. A risk, but OK if they are cheap enough. Buy the old forklift at the same and you solve the problem of moving tonnes of batteries around your property!

The typical UK daily consumption of 10kWh would require at least 41kWh of batteries and 12 kW of panels costing at least £10k (the shipping cost for the batteries is not included in the spreadsheet). On top of that the ground mountings (you could use wood), wiring, charge controller, DC isolators (not cheap), fuses, meters, a shelter/building for the battery and generator, temperature monitor(s), generator(s), fuel storage etc. would be required. Reducing your consumption will help considerably providing you can convince your partner not to use the tumble drier and not to keep leaving the garage light on.  ::)

Don't forget to include de-ionized water in the running costs as large flooded cell batteries use a lot of water, although one off-gridder at least, uses winter collected (ie. dust free) rain water apparently without harm.

It can be done if you have space (and planning permission) for enough panels. But don't forget batteries must not be neglected or they can be easily destroyed, although the flooded cells in the spreadsheet are much more robust than the maintenance free AGM etc. lead-acid types. They need to be equalized periodically with an equalizing charge to de-stratify the electrolyte and prevent sulphation and electrolyte levels and gravity need to be checked regularly.

Early deaths of batteries due to lack of experience or neglect isn't uncommon and can blow the financial case. It's not uncommon for batteries to fail early for no obvious reason so you still take a risk. If the cells aren't well matched, weaker cells will suffer as they will suffer deeper discharges and more overcharging than the others causing a gradually accelerating decline. One off-gridder had to fight a supplier to get a pack replaced - she had to prove to them, using her chemical engineering experience, that the manufacturer had changed the separator material and she'd ended up with cells from different batches which performed differently.  |O

And then you have the problem of deciding to replace the whole pack or just the failed cells which isn't a great idea.

And to achieve the < £.07/kWh lifetime battery cost the battery will need to be operating for 20 years or more (because to operate on PV alone the battery is necessarily very large and so has very shallow discharges for the majority of the year). Are you sure you'll still be living in the same house in 20 to 25 years - no buyer is likely to want to take on such a system? Will you still want to be managing the batteries and maintaining the generators in 25 years? Or would your partner want to take it on should the batteries outlive you?

Don't forget the hazards - some recommend having a barrel full of water nearby to jump in when a cell explodes for reasons unknown, or due to dropping a spanner across the terminals and showers you with acid - not unknown.  :wtf:

If you fancy the challenge then go for it - it could be a lot of fun and might even save money especially if you can get cheap or free second hand batteries; just don't underestimate the work and risks involved. I'd suggest organizing the cells into at least 2 parallel batteries if possible so that when you have a problem with one of them you aren't faced with running the generator for long periods until you can get replacements. Alternatively you could have a smaller reserve battery made from retired UPSs or older cells with insufficient capacity for your main bank.

You'll have a large surplus of electricity during the summer so try to devise a profitable use - a bit of aluminium smelting perhaps? Oh and the batteries will have useful scrap value when they do need to be replaced - if they haven't been nicked, along with your panels when you were on holiday. (Ground mounts are more vulnerable than roof mounted panels).

A good UK resource is the Navitron forums which has some experienced off-gridders:

http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/
 

Offline bills

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Re: Batteries and inverters going off grid with solar.
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2015, 03:41:06 am »
Splin
Great write up very concise, 35yr's ago I owned a l/a battery manufacturing shop.
I agree with you on the care and feeding of l/a batteries to get the most life from these you want to choose batteries with the thickest plates. Automotive, sla,(agm) just don't cut it,At minimum a good quality golf cart battery.   
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Offline johansen

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Re: Batteries and inverters going off grid with solar.
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2015, 04:04:47 am »
And to achieve the < £.07/kWh lifetime battery cost the battery will need to be operating for 20 years or more

i agree with the last part, you have to use the batteries till they have fallen to less than 50% nameplate capacity.

but.. if you actually believe you can get 2100 cycles to 80% dod, then i don't know what to tell you. 500 cycles to 80% dod would be good.. that's why i said 25 to 50 cents/kwh.

now if you only discharge to 20% dod then you should do a lot better, if the battery can handle twice the total energy flow then you would have 500 times 8 or 4000 charge discharge cycles to 20% dod.
Or 8000 to 10% dod.

10% dod is what a lot of off grid folks try to reach... 8000 days is 22 years.
 

Offline bills

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Re: Batteries and inverters going off grid with solar.
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2015, 04:54:07 am »
I think one of the main factors in battery life is the battery (duh) a lot off grid users are using batteries that are not suitable for the application, as I posted in my last post you need a battery that has plates that are thick enough to withstand heavy use, and that results in a lower amp hr. capacity. But longer life.
I worked on a system for southern cal. edison about 25 years ago for off peak storage they had a 56,000 sq foot building with banks of 2volt cells that were 18"x18"x30"(8000) the cells were in glass jars and were 11 plates (IIRC)  the plates were about .750" for the positive and .600 for the negative they used compressed air to circulate the electrolyte. (think aquarium filter)
I was talking to one of the project engineers and they expected battery life to be 30 years.
Only they were having a problem with heat, Well who ever designed the cells used Styrofoam shims to take up the space in the jars appox. .750 one each side and to add to that they used  Styrofoam to separate the jars (earthquake protection) I also noticed the air tubes extended into the sediment chambers at the bottom of the cells :-//    causing any of the material to be  circulated back into the active material.
I pointed this out to the  project engineer and was given the look (who the f--k are you)
last I heard the project was a failure.
BTW my part in this project was installing and maintaining the air system I worked for Ingersol rand at the time.
link https://www.edison.com/content/dam/eix/documents/innovation/smart-grids/Energy-Storage-Concept-to-Reality-Edison.pdf
   
   
« Last Edit: August 17, 2015, 05:10:18 am by bills »
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Offline TheElectricChicken

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Re: Batteries and inverters going off grid with solar.
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2015, 05:37:55 am »
Indeed. It looks to me though, that using 3x 2kw units brings the price to $600 rather than 6kw @$1300, which begs the question why use a single unit, have redundancy. There is something I'm missing.
I think you didn't look at the details.  "Warehouse clearout" and "1 month warranty".
Could well be out of spec units that failed testing...

You can buy twice as many and STILL save money. If they fail, the credit card or paypal or the seller give back the money. If they work for a week then they are perfectly normal, as good as any other item. There is no saving in making something that lasts a week as opposed to years, such things are hard to engineer. Some companies manage it.

There are no end to companies that have permanent  "Warehouse clearout"s and 1 month warranty is just fine. It works for a month it's likely to keep on working. You pay for your own fixing if ever it needs it. As you have 3 extra swap units because you got 6 instead of 1 and still saved money that's fine.
 

Offline bills

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Re: Batteries and inverters going off grid with solar.
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2015, 05:53:05 am »
BTW I have a grid tied system 3kw. and my cost per year is about $ 300.00 a year, cost for the installation was $ 15,000.00 but that was 10 years ago.
It has paid for it self ,my power bill was $250.00 to $ 350.00 usd per month for the summer (4 months) and $ 60.00 to $ 70.00 for the rest of the year. now my monthly bill is $2.00 to $4.50 than  I get an adjusted bill every September for $250.00 to $300.00 for the year.  and the system works ( but not as it was sold to me ) This is an another story.
I have no problem with a grid tied system they work (at least in the usa)
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Offline bills

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Re: Batteries and inverters going off grid with solar.
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2015, 06:03:22 am »
Mr. chicken what are you trying to  say?
sure we can salvage a but load of UPS's but how long is that going to work? than what are you going to do with the old stuff?
Sir you are entertaining but not very relevant.I will have to admit it is fun to read your posts.
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Offline SimonTopic starter

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Re: Batteries and inverters going off grid with solar.
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2015, 06:07:36 am »
My intention is not to be completely off grid at least not immediately as this is something that would be very expensive. However I do not want to do grid tie inverter's as this is where I risk giving the electricity back to the electric company for free.

There are lots of leisure batteries Claiming that they can be discharged 500 or 700 times to a discharged state. That is why I would not want to discharge any batteries beyond 50% because I don't see the point in using those valuable cycles and destroying the batteries early.

Having established that 48 V is the high input voltage I can get for an inverter I would obviously be running set of 4x 12 V batteries in series which is not too expensive to buy at a time and I can add more sets in parallel.

Obviously the other possibility is to switch to an economy seven tariff and charge the batteries up overnight if solar has not done enough this is what photonic induction does in fact.

So my next main problem is to work out what batteries to buy. I don't need anything huge I was thinking around the 110 A mark there are plenty of cheap leisure batteries but are they good enough? I don't exactly want pounds any battery I buy I will just gradually add batteries to the system to make it capable enough.
 

Offline TheElectricChicken

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Re: Batteries and inverters going off grid with solar.
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2015, 06:14:25 am »
I doubt any educated person would name anything 'edison' if they wanted it taken seriously.
 

Offline bills

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Re: Batteries and inverters going off grid with solar.
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2015, 06:25:57 am »
Simon
I don't know what the rules are in the UK. ( I will have to reread to this thread to  understand)
here in the us the power co's are required to buy the power in excess that you use.
the price is nowhere near what they charge you for the top tier rate it is close to the lower tier rate.
If anyone is confused about tier rate let me know and I will try to explain.
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Offline bills

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Re: Batteries and inverters going off grid with solar.
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2015, 06:28:28 am »
I doubt any educated person would name anything 'edison' if they wanted it taken seriously.

Snappy come back.

regards
bill
« Last Edit: August 17, 2015, 06:30:35 am by bills »
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Offline bills

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Re: Batteries and inverters going off grid with solar.
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2015, 06:33:05 am »
Wow note to self don't relay on spell check.
( RELAY )
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Offline TheElectricChicken

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Re: Batteries and inverters going off grid with solar.
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2015, 06:35:51 am »
I doubt any educated person would name anything 'edison' if they wanted it taken seriously.

Snappy come back.

I'm not trying to be snappy or have any argument or anything, I'm just wondering why any educated person would want to associate themselves with a loser who electrocuted kittens, puppies, topsy the elephant, a prisoner, and so on. He stole everything, never invented a thing, his teacher described him as "addled" which describes a chicken egg in which a developing chick has died. Tesla, I can understand why you'd name a car or a company Tesla, but Edison ? It says that these people take you for idiots.
 

Offline bills

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Re: Batteries and inverters going off grid with solar.
« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2015, 06:52:00 am »
Mr. Chicken 
Edison was an unusual guy.
Gee do you watch movies listen to music  how about multiplex, yes he was a different person but a genus. ( GD spell check)
Would you like more info on   Edison please let me know .

regards
bill
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Offline notsob

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Re: Batteries and inverters going off grid with solar.
« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2015, 07:14:18 am »
Have a look at the lith-ion storage packs that elon musk [based on the ones he has in Tesla's] is intending to sell for home energy storage
 

Offline Aodhan145

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Re: Batteries and inverters going off grid with solar.
« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2015, 03:04:35 pm »
Have a look at the lith-ion storage packs that elon musk [based on the ones he has in Tesla's] is intending to sell for home energy storage
Those Powerwall's are quite impressive. 10kwh for $3,500 if I remember correctly.
 

Offline SimonTopic starter

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Re: Batteries and inverters going off grid with solar.
« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2015, 04:46:31 pm »
Have a look at the lith-ion storage packs that elon musk [based on the ones he has in Tesla's] is intending to sell for home energy storage
Those Powerwall's are quite impressive. 10kwh for $3,500 if I remember correctly.

For £1200 I can get the same power in lead acid allowing for 50% only discharge....
 

Offline bookaboo

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Re: Batteries and inverters going off grid with solar.
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2015, 04:52:06 pm »
Have a look at the lith-ion storage packs that elon musk [based on the ones he has in Tesla's] is intending to sell for home energy storage
Those Powerwall's are quite impressive. 10kwh for $3,500 if I remember correctly.

For £1200 I can get the same power in lead acid allowing for 50% only discharge....

Doesn't the powerwall do all the solar charging and include an inverter?



In any case, I wonder if you would get a better return direct hot water solar. Straight to a buffer tank so you can give the fingers to British Gas, you wouldn't be able to do much of the project yourself but anyone I know that has them reckons they are a great investment.
 

Offline SimonTopic starter

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Re: Batteries and inverters going off grid with solar.
« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2015, 05:06:18 pm »
I live alone so think i might use more electric than gas for hot water that in winter won't help much. The best location is too far from the house for the pipe work to work out.
 

Offline AG6QR

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Re: Batteries and inverters going off grid with solar.
« Reply #49 on: August 18, 2015, 05:45:30 am »
Have a look at the lith-ion storage packs that elon musk [based on the ones he has in Tesla's] is intending to sell for home energy storage
Those Powerwall's are quite impressive. 10kwh for $3,500 if I remember correctly.

For £1200 I can get the same power in lead acid allowing for 50% only discharge....

Doesn't the powerwall do all the solar charging and include an inverter?

Not at that $3500 price -- that's just the battery alone.  http://www.autoblog.com/2015/05/21/what-do-you-really-get-for-7000-tesla-powerwall-home-battery/

Lithium has a tremendous weight advantage, so I understand why it's ideal for use in electric vehicles.  But weight isn't nearly so important for stationary in-home applications.  Lead acid isn't sexy, but it's boring, dependable, and cheap.  And it has an established infrastructure for recycling.  It seems well suited to the job.

Gotta admit, the packaging of the powerwall is pretty, sleek, and curvy, though.

 


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