Author Topic: Electric Car Experiences  (Read 6073 times)

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Offline boffin

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #75 on: September 12, 2018, 07:05:42 am »
Cost of Maintenance:
The EV will have an advantage, the typical service interval is 2yrs/30,000km. No oil changes every 10k
A modern ICE needs an oil change every 25k to 30k km so there is no real difference there when it comes to service intervals. What is more interesting are the costs after driving 100k km and 200k km. People seem to forget there is much more to an EV than a piece of copper wire wound around bits of metal that makes it go. I strongly doubt an EV will be cheaper to run because the overall complexity of the car hasn't been reduced. Think about the drive electronics and battery cooling/heating system for starters. Earlier I posted some links showing the maintenance for an EV was more expensive compared to a similar ICE based car.

let's not do this again, where I show you a real world value, and you pick the outlying (non-warranty approved in this case) edge case of oil every 25,000km.
Compare Apples to Apples, warranty approved maintenance schedules; per VW Service per https://owners.vwmodels.ca/maintenance/timeline/

All vehicles require 'inspections', but these are the required replacement items

VW Golf service
15k oil, filter & plug
30k oil, filter & plug, pollen filter
45k oil, filter & plug
60k oil, filter & plug, pollen filter, spark plugs
75k oil, filter & plug
90k oil, filter & plug, oil plug gasket, pollen filter, air filter
105k oil, filter & plug
120k oil, filter & plug, pollen filter, spark plugs
135k oil, filter & plug
150k oil, filter & plug, pollen filter
165k oil, filter & plug
180k oil, filter & plug, pollen filter, air filter, spark plugs

VW eGolf service
15k none
30k pollen filter
45k none
60k pollen filter
75k none
90k pollen filter
105k none
120k pollen filter
135k none
150k pollen filter
165k none
180k pollen filter







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Offline boffin

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #76 on: September 12, 2018, 07:11:09 am »
... I bought my first car - a used Datsun 510 at age 16.  Until about 10 years ago, I did almost all the service myself - oil changes, brake jobs, transmission service.  I have rebuilt ICE engines, changed several clutches.  I never have rebuilt a transmission.

A fine choice.  My 1st car was a 510 as well. The L engines were completely bulletproof, sadly the body was biodegradable.  Did almost all my service in the driveway as well.
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Online mtdoc

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #77 on: September 12, 2018, 07:39:49 am »
... I bought my first car - a used Datsun 510 at age 16.  Until about 10 years ago, I did almost all the service myself - oil changes, brake jobs, transmission service.  I have rebuilt ICE engines, changed several clutches.  I never have rebuilt a transmission.

A fine choice.  My 1st car was a 510 as well. The L engines were completely bulletproof, sadly the body was biodegradable.  Did almost all my service in the driveway as well.

I loved that car. It was a sleeper performance car the time - popular with street racers.  I did some performance mods that unfortunately meant it would not pass the California smog inspection at the time. Had to buy the local alcoholic smog inspector a bottle of Seagrams 7 to get him to pass it.  True story.
 

Offline julianhigginson

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #78 on: September 12, 2018, 04:19:18 pm »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #79 on: September 13, 2018, 06:13:09 am »
Cost of Maintenance:
The EV will have an advantage, the typical service interval is 2yrs/30,000km. No oil changes every 10k
A modern ICE needs an oil change every 25k to 30k km so there is no real difference there when it comes to service intervals. What is more interesting are the costs after driving 100k km and 200k km. People seem to forget there is much more to an EV than a piece of copper wire wound around bits of metal that makes it go. I strongly doubt an EV will be cheaper to run because the overall complexity of the car hasn't been reduced. Think about the drive electronics and battery cooling/heating system for starters. Earlier I posted some links showing the maintenance for an EV was more expensive compared to a similar ICE based car.
let's not do this again, where I show you a real world value, and you pick the outlying (non-warranty approved in this case) edge case of oil every 25,000km.
The only thing you are showing is that an ICE VW Golf is expensive to maintain. My own Ford Focus from 2006 needs an oil change every 20k km according to the manual. And there are cars out there with even longer oil change intervals. Saying that longer intervals are non-warranty approved is just nonsense. If it says 20k km in the manual from the manufacturer then it is warranty approved.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online mtdoc

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #80 on: September 13, 2018, 09:33:14 am »
My own Ford Focus from 2006 needs an oil change every 20k km according to the manual.

Really?  Why does Ford say oil changes should be every 5000 mi (8000 km) for pre 2008 cars and every 7500 mi (12000 km) for newer cars?

In any case you’re flogging a dead horse again with your apples to oranges comparison.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 11:22:07 am by mtdoc »
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #81 on: September 13, 2018, 01:26:51 pm »
Either way the endless EV-bashing mental gymnastics are a bit tiresome to say the least. IMHO someone who has never owned or even driven one really has nothing to stand on, it's just a baseless religious argument polluting an otherwise constructive thread.
 
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Offline CCitizenTO

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #82 on: September 14, 2018, 06:14:38 am »
Rental cars are cheap in the US. $30-40 a day, $200-300 for a week with unlimited miles. Auto insurance alone in most parts of the US will cost you $1000 a year per vehicle for liability coverage alone.
My car insurance costs way less but due to not claiming anything for many years got me a hefty discount.

Those low rental prices usually are for very small cars. If you want a decent car the price nearly doubles and then there is the extra insurance. But as I wrote before I already tried to 'optimise' cars. My previous car was a sedan. My thinking was: I don't need a station wagon every day and I'll sort things out when I need to transport something large. Well that turned out to be a really bad idea. Fortunately my wife had a relatively large hatch-back so I could use that to transport larger items but it still didn't do the job well. I recall buying a couple of windows but those where too large for the lid to close so I had to drive around to find a shopping mall first to but a piece of rope to tie it shut. Same for a dish-washer and many other items. Buying a car which can't do the 1% you need every now and then just sucks. Nowadays I'm back to the station wagon. I hope this underlines my point when I'm saying that buying a car which can only do 99% (or less) of the use cases is going to be a nuisance because it doesn't deliver when you need it the most.

You don't need a cube van every day but if you have to move from one place to another you can always rent one from U-Haul. Pretty much the same thing you're talking about. If you can't fit the dish washer in the car then maybe you need to pay a few bucks and have it delivered rather than renting a car for the purpose.
 

Offline sokoloff

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #83 on: September 14, 2018, 06:17:44 am »
I rent a trailer from UHaul probably 1.5 times per year on average. I'm surely not going to pick my daily driver sized for the largest thing I'll ever move and 99.5% of the time be driving around in something that comically large, all to avoid a $25 charge every 8 months or so...
 

Offline boffin

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #84 on: September 14, 2018, 06:33:06 am »
My own Ford Focus from 2006 needs an oil change every 20k km according to the manual.

Really?  Why does Ford say oil changes should be every 5000 mi (8000 km) for pre 2008 cars and every 7500 mi (12000 km) for newer cars?

In any case you’re flogging a dead horse again with your apples to oranges comparison.


He's completely obsessed with Ford, so let's feed him new and 2006 Ford data.

Yeah, here in Canada the documentation says 12,000-16,000km for new cars under 'normal' conditions, it's controlled by how much load the car feels it's been under.
https://www.ford.ca/resources/ford/general/pdf/service/414919_ServiceBrochure_8.5x11_EN.pdf

As for older cars, I couldn't find the Canadian reference, but the US 2006 schedule is every 5000mi (8000km)
http://www.fordservicecontent.com/Ford_Content/catalog/owner_guides/06mermg3e.pdf
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Online nctnico

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #85 on: September 15, 2018, 05:33:58 am »
My own Ford Focus from 2006 needs an oil change every 20k km according to the manual.
Really?  Why does Ford say oil changes should be every 5000 mi (8000 km) for pre 2008 cars and every 7500 mi (12000 km) for newer cars?

In any case you’re flogging a dead horse again with your apples to oranges comparison.
He's completely obsessed with Ford, so let's feed him new and 2006 Ford data.

Yeah, here in Canada the documentation says 12,000-16,000km for new cars under 'normal' conditions, it's controlled by how much load the car feels it's been under.
https://www.ford.ca/resources/ford/general/pdf/service/414919_ServiceBrochure_8.5x11_EN.pdf
Perhaps the Fords over there are build to different quality standards needing more maintenance than the European versions. BTW I'm not obsessed with Ford. Actually I was brought up to dislike Ford like southern red-necks dislike colored people and Hillary Clinton. I'm just going for the car with the lowest TCO. Previous cars where from Toyota, Mitsubishi and Mazda.

BTW the same seems to be true for your beloved VW. According to this website (in Dutch) most ICE models (before AND after 2014) need servicing every 30k km.
https://www.volkswagen.nl/service/onderhoud/volkswagen-onderhoudsbeurt
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 05:40:05 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #86 on: September 15, 2018, 04:52:26 pm »
The 20k and 30k service intervals are designed to get the car out of warranty with lowest cost to the manufacturer, as they often come with a motorplan that covers all services for a fixed period or a fixed mileage. However this means the engfine has by then built up signifigant sludge and this causes problems further down the line after the motorplan is up with excessive engine wear and bearing failure. Plenty of VW and Ford engines fail after warranty is expired with that service interval, simply because the sludge build up has caused excessive wear on the engine. The 2.0/2.2 TDI engine is very well known for grenading the oil pump and also wearing the valve train from sludge build up, as it has that long service interval.

Almost as if the manufacturers saying you have to buy a new car every 5 years. Worst id the trio of Renault/Citroen/Peugoet with the cars they build having a designed in 7 year lifetime of major components. Expensive to replace engine and gearbox on a 7 year old car just out of warranty when the bearings, gears, sliding surfaces are all worn past repair. Change the oil a lot more regular and they will last.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #87 on: September 15, 2018, 05:42:48 pm »
Plenty of VW and Ford engines fail after warranty is expired with that service interval, simply because the sludge build up has caused excessive wear on the engine. The 2.0/2.2 TDI engine is very well known for grenading the oil pump and also wearing the valve train from sludge build up, as it has that long service interval.
If you look across all the cars then you'll see that many brands have problems with the engines. Most notably the engines made by PSA (French). But also Toyota and VW have had series of engines which are subject to excessive wear. In most cases these problems are fixed outside the warranty as well as part of a recall. Either way: do your homework before buying a used car. I also noticed that not every garage knows which oil to put in a particular car so you need to keep an eye on that as well.

edit: my point is in the end car manufacturers are not going to specify maintenance intervals which shorten the useful life of a car because that will reduce the resale value for the first owner. A shorter useful life makes the car more expensive instead of cheaper.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 04:26:53 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline a59d1

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #88 on: October 01, 2018, 10:08:13 am »
Actually I was brought up to dislike Ford like southern red-necks dislike colored people and Hillary Clinton.

 :wtf:
 

Offline Wan Huang Luo

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #89 on: November 07, 2018, 04:21:25 am »
BMW i3, spent more time in the shop than out of the shop. Literally in and out of the shop two dozen times over a two year period. I drove loaner BMWs from the dealership more than I drove that electric turd. They even replaced the battery. When the lease ended and that lemon went back to their hands I felt a great sense of relief.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #90 on: November 07, 2018, 04:41:35 am »
I wonder if that's typical? What sort of problems did it have? The i3 is one of the few mainstream EVs I have never known anyone who owned one.
 

Offline Wan Huang Luo

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #91 on: November 07, 2018, 04:44:32 am »
Not sure if they were typical or not. I might have just been handed a lemon. Most of the issues related to the two-cylinder engine as mine was the range extended variant.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #92 on: November 07, 2018, 04:46:42 am »
Not sure if they were typical or not. I might have just been handed a lemon. Most of the issues related to the two-cylinder engine as mine was the range extended variant.
Interesting. Was it the engine itself, or the way it integrates with the car? I thought they used a proven engine from other applications.
 

Offline Wan Huang Luo

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #93 on: November 07, 2018, 06:19:27 am »
The engine oxygen sensors, emissions sensors, fuel filler door sensor, this sensor, that sensor, ...  were repeated points of failure
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #94 on: November 07, 2018, 09:27:48 am »
If I were going to get an EV, I'd get a pure EV. One of the big attractions is not having to deal with any of that ICE related stuff. I don't want to drag around two separate powerplants and all the associated control gear and energy supply for both.
 

Offline jh15

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #95 on: November 07, 2018, 05:00:59 pm »
I say when talking anout my S, even before seeing it, they don't want a car with gadgets.

I understood when choosing my car, it would have gadgets.

However, buying any ICE car, you still have gadgets, and soon auto crash sensing, dog poop on seat in rear sensor etc.

You are still dragging around a block of engine to crash into your lap, exhaust, transmission, fluid changes, stinky garage when leaving,

Dealer? We ordered ours, factpry to us delivered on a Tesla flatbed. (the guy wished they would get rid of the ICE delivery vehicle.

And like planned appleescence, you can be sure your dealer will either milk you on this or say no longer supported, your engine controller is "vintage". While trying you to upsell o another car on their lot.
Our car keeps getting better without trading in.
tek 575 curve tracer top shape, 535 top shape, 465. 545 hickok clone, Telsa Model S,  Ohio Scientific c24P single board computer, many c-64 from my club days, Giant electric bicycle, Rigol stuff, Heathkit AR-15 receivers 2, Heathkit et 3400a trainer and interface,
 

Offline Wan Huang Luo

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #96 on: November 08, 2018, 01:26:51 am »
If I were going to get an EV, I'd get a pure EV. One of the big attractions is not having to deal with any of that ICE related stuff. I don't want to drag around two separate powerplants and all the associated control gear and energy supply for both.
Great point; the "REx" in the BMW is a pathetic kludge that provided only 70 (!!!) miles of extra range with a gas tank that took only about 1.5 gallons to fill up. I did a 900 mile (each way) road trip with that car. It was awful. If I had access to Tesla-style fast charging and 300 miles real range, that would have been a pleasure instead of a nightmare.
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #97 on: November 08, 2018, 03:24:33 am »
I'd love an electric car, I just wish they were more standard and not a niche product.  I can't justify paying the cost of a new car (any car) so I only buy used and since they are so niche the odds of finding a used one is super slim.

My biggest worry as far as viability would be -40 days but I'm thinking it would be fine.  My work is about 5km from my house so a car that has a 100km advertised range would be more than good enough for me.  ex: even if I got a used where the battery is at like half capacity I'd be ok with that. 

If I had a big heated garage to work in I would consider starting a project car where I do an EV conversion of a gas car.  Would be a pretty neat project.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #98 on: November 08, 2018, 03:28:29 am »
No need to buy a new car, most of the people I know who have them bought used. My dad and a friend of mine each bought a Nissan Leaf when a big lot of them came off lease a few years ago, both have been trouble free. Another friend bought a Chevy Bolt a couple years ago, he also has been raving about it non stop, I don't recall what he paid for the Bolt but the Leafs were under $10k. I would never personally buy a brand new car either, I'll gladly let someone else take that big depreciation hit.
 

Offline sokoloff

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Re: Electric Car Experiences
« Reply #99 on: November 08, 2018, 04:06:27 am »
I'd love an electric car, I just wish they were more standard and not a niche product.  I can't justify paying the cost of a new car (any car) so I only buy used and since they are so niche the odds of finding a used one is super slim.

My biggest worry as far as viability would be -40 days but I'm thinking it would be fine.  My work is about 5km from my house so a car that has a 100km advertised range would be more than good enough for me.  ex: even if I got a used where the battery is at like half capacity I'd be ok with that. 

If I had a big heated garage to work in I would consider starting a project car where I do an EV conversion of a gas car.  Would be a pretty neat project.
4 years used is likely to have a 80-90% battery on a LEAF, probably on the higher end of that. In -40° weather, the range will be even worse, but multiple 5km round trips should still be easily, easily doable. Battery heating is the issue. There is an on-board heater that runs (IIRC) when the car is charged above 30% and the battery is below -20°C (-4°F) until the battery is above -10°C (14°F). This heater obviously takes power from the traction pack and cuts into your range (unless you can keep the car plugged in, in which case the heater usage is replenished). Even wit the heating, the range is reduced as cold batteries store less energy than warm batteries. Again, your commute is almost ideal for this.

Buying them used is no problem; the market is thick with them.

On doing a conversion, that was my plan 8+ years ago. Now, the production cars are readily available and have a production car level of fit and finish, so if you want to own an electric, just buy one. If you want to build one, build one, but if the owning and driving is the point, just buy one... :)
 


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