Author Topic: Environmentalists and Nuclear Energy  (Read 50377 times)

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Online Someone

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Re: Environmentalists and Nuclear Energy
« Reply #100 on: December 14, 2016, 08:41:31 pm »
We are not at the point where the lights are going out and the proposals to install more nuclear power plants are not going to solve any of our problems in the next 10 years. Generation capacity is not the problem with renewables but as you say storage is still a big problem.
Well the narrow minded view (by excluding storage possibilities) is that you need excess generation capacity well above the peak demand to allow for outages and failures. But even for "conventional plants" the case for storage is strong:
http://gridwatch.co.uk
http://www.wrap.org.uk/content/electricity-spot-prices
There is a predictable daily demand variation, off peak tariffs haven't levelled the grid enough (and are much less popular than they have been in the past). Already with the existing mix of generation short term storage is a profitable exercise and the added peak generation capacity would make the grid more robust. Storage is a necessity in some form, and the predominant form at the moment is gas/coal. Gas is in a low period for the moment, so its doing well:
https://www.quandl.com/data/CHRIS/ICE_M1-UK-Natural-Gas-Futures-Continuous-Contract-1-M1-Front-Month
But if gas prices go back up again the field changes.
 

Offline Kleinstein

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Re: Environmentalists and Nuclear Energy
« Reply #101 on: December 14, 2016, 09:40:12 pm »
The problem is that a nuclear accident would kill a lot of people immediately with no warning. ...

A nuclear accident usually will not kill many fast, the problem is more the longer term damages: first this is an increased cancer rate so more people are dying the next 30 years or so. Hard to tell how to count casualties. Also due to the still rather short experience and rare large incidents with nuclear energy we do not have a good statistics - so estimate as rater difficult. Besides directly killing people the is also the financial risk: quite a large area gets polluted for quite a long time (e.g. 100s of years). This is potentially enough to make states collapse leaving behind more reactors without proper supervision / care. We had been lucky in Fukushima with the wind - just imagine the wind driving the fallout to Tokio instead of the pacific ocean.

If everything runs well and in stable states the risks might be acceptable, but as universal solution this would mean there will be nuclear power in corrupt and failing states too and a single accident could turn a stable state to a failing one.  I don't think having a nuclear power plant in Syria or Somalia would be an attractive situation - they would likely run it until it breaks down, one way or the other.
 
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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Environmentalists and Nuclear Energy
« Reply #102 on: December 14, 2016, 10:59:35 pm »
A little off topic, but is no one else concerned about all of this optimization, regardless of the raw source of the power.

Once upon a time all generation was local, and had to be sized for peak loads.  Inefficient, but lots of inherent excess capacity almost all of the time.  Made a pretty robust system.

Then we started grids and sharing power over regions.  Allowed for statistical reduction in peak capacity.  It didn't really cut load peaks too much, just by the slope of the daily curve over the east-west extent of the grid, but did help a lot with the somewhat random fluctuations and allowed more resistance to single generator failures.

Now we are talking about avoiding need for more generation by using storage to precisely level out the daily swings.  Raw generation capacity need only be equal to average demand, with some argument about the duration of storage and the length of the average.

The resultant system seems brittle to me.  If something gets a little behind it can never catch up.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Environmentalists and Nuclear Energy
« Reply #103 on: December 14, 2016, 11:23:16 pm »
The problem is that a nuclear accident would kill a lot of people immediately with no warning. ...

A nuclear accident usually will not kill many fast, the problem is more the longer term damages: first this is an increased cancer rate so more people are dying the next 30 years or so. Hard to tell how to count casualties. Also due to the still rather short experience and rare large incidents with nuclear energy we do not have a good statistics - so estimate as rater difficult. Besides directly killing people the is also the financial risk: quite a large area gets polluted for quite a long time (e.g. 100s of years). This is potentially enough to make states collapse leaving behind more reactors without proper supervision / care. We had been lucky in Fukushima with the wind - just imagine the wind driving the fallout to Tokio instead of the pacific ocean.


Of course almost exactly the same is true with dependable non-nuclear power sources. The only difference is in probability - and that makes nuclear look attractive.  That's why medium term (i.e. days-weeks) storage of large quantities of energy is so important.

So the current choice is between certainty and possibility; do you want to drink toxins or play russian roulette :(
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Offline mtdoc

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Re: Environmentalists and Nuclear Energy
« Reply #104 on: December 14, 2016, 11:24:26 pm »
A little off topic, but is no one else concerned about all of this optimization, regardless of the raw source of the power.

Once upon a time all generation was local, and had to be sized for peak loads.  Inefficient, but lots of inherent excess capacity almost all of the time.  Made a pretty robust system.

Then we started grids and sharing power over regions.  Allowed for statistical reduction in peak capacity.  It didn't really cut load peaks too much, just by the slope of the daily curve over the east-west extent of the grid, but did help a lot with the somewhat random fluctuations and allowed more resistance to single generator failures.

Now we are talking about avoiding need for more generation by using storage to precisely level out the daily swings.  Raw generation capacity need only be equal to average demand, with some argument about the duration of storage and the length of the average.

The resultant system seems brittle to me.  If something gets a little behind it can never catch up.

The broader point here is an important one IMO.  As a society matures it tends to adopt ever increasingly complex solutions to resource shortages. The result is decreased resiliency - a more brittle system - one more prone to collapse.  The anthropologist Joseph Tainter has written extensively about this phenomenon.
 

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Re: Environmentalists and Nuclear Energy
« Reply #105 on: December 15, 2016, 12:06:43 am »
A little off topic, but is no one else concerned about all of this optimization, regardless of the raw source of the power.

Once upon a time all generation was local, and had to be sized for peak loads.  Inefficient, but lots of inherent excess capacity almost all of the time.  Made a pretty robust system.

Then we started grids and sharing power over regions.  Allowed for statistical reduction in peak capacity.  It didn't really cut load peaks too much, just by the slope of the daily curve over the east-west extent of the grid, but did help a lot with the somewhat random fluctuations and allowed more resistance to single generator failures.

Now we are talking about avoiding need for more generation by using storage to precisely level out the daily swings.  Raw generation capacity need only be equal to average demand, with some argument about the duration of storage and the length of the average.

The resultant system seems brittle to me.  If something gets a little behind it can never catch up.
The theory is that it will never get behind, mothballed plants will be brought online quickly (weeks to months) if the market price starts rising because supply is getting scarce. But the current UK grid lacks storage for peaking with only 1.6GW of hydro against a peak demand of around 60GW, compare this to the Australian installed base of 7.8GW against a peak demand of around 50GW. You can see how the hydro and gas plants are used for peaking from their energy contribution compared to their installed capacity share:
https://www.aer.gov.au/wholesale-markets/wholesale-statistics/generation-capacity-and-output-by-fuel-source
The general trend is you need to introduce more "excess" capacity for peaking/reliability, and even more again if there are intermittent renewables dumping their low cost energy into the grid. Right now the only plants that have the ability to sit idle and deliver stored power quickly are gas and hydro, oil is slower, and coal slower again, nuclear is uneconomic to run at anything other than a constant load.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Environmentalists and Nuclear Energy
« Reply #106 on: December 15, 2016, 12:21:27 am »
A little off topic, but is no one else concerned about all of this optimization, regardless of the raw source of the power.

Once upon a time all generation was local, and had to be sized for peak loads.  Inefficient, but lots of inherent excess capacity almost all of the time.  Made a pretty robust system.

Then we started grids and sharing power over regions.  Allowed for statistical reduction in peak capacity.  It didn't really cut load peaks too much, just by the slope of the daily curve over the east-west extent of the grid, but did help a lot with the somewhat random fluctuations and allowed more resistance to single generator failures.

Now we are talking about avoiding need for more generation by using storage to precisely level out the daily swings.  Raw generation capacity need only be equal to average demand, with some argument about the duration of storage and the length of the average.

The resultant system seems brittle to me.  If something gets a little behind it can never catch up.
The theory is that it will never get behind, mothballed plants will be brought online quickly (weeks to months) if the market price starts rising because supply is getting scarce. But the current UK grid lacks storage for peaking with only 1.6GW of hydro against a peak demand of around 60GW, compare this to the Australian installed base of 7.8GW against a peak demand of around 50GW. You can see how the hydro and gas plants are used for peaking from their energy contribution compared to their installed capacity share:
https://www.aer.gov.au/wholesale-markets/wholesale-statistics/generation-capacity-and-output-by-fuel-source
The general trend is you need to introduce more "excess" capacity for peaking/reliability, and even more again if there are intermittent renewables dumping their low cost energy into the grid. Right now the only plants that have the ability to sit idle and deliver stored power quickly are gas and hydro, oil is slower, and coal slower again, nuclear is uneconomic to run at anything other than a constant load.

The peak, measured in GW, is not a fundamentally important factor since renewables output is fairly predictable in the short term (hours). Certainly the UK's hydro is sufficient in that respect.

What is more important and difficult to achieve is storage, measured in GWh. The UK's hydro is completely insufficient for that - and will be for the foreseeable future. A noticable proportion of it has to be reserved for "black start" capability.
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Offline hamster_nz

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Re: Environmentalists and Nuclear Energy
« Reply #107 on: December 15, 2016, 12:39:28 am »
The resultant system seems brittle to me.  If something gets a little behind it can never catch up.

This happens in New Zealand.

Using energy in long-term storage (hydro lakes) is very cheap compared with burning fossil fuels. This gives great commercial pressure to maximize the use of hydro, and play the "one in twenty year" game.

The generation sector are then faced with a complex problem of predicting the weather many months in advance. If there is a 'one in 20 year' dry autumn, we head into winter with lower than required storage lake levels, and possibly insufficient fossil fuel generation capacity to cover peak winter demand if hydro runs out.

This lack of supply pushes up the wholesale price of electricity on the spot-price market, allowing generators to make more money than had they conserved the relatively cheap hydro for use over the winter peak.

So using hydro when storage is mostly full, or cover peak loads would maximize security of supply. The opposite maximizes return to generator shareholders who makes the most when lakes have been emptied.
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Re: Environmentalists and Nuclear Energy
« Reply #108 on: December 15, 2016, 01:03:32 am »
A little off topic, but is no one else concerned about all of this optimization, regardless of the raw source of the power.

Once upon a time all generation was local, and had to be sized for peak loads.  Inefficient, but lots of inherent excess capacity almost all of the time.  Made a pretty robust system.

Then we started grids and sharing power over regions.  Allowed for statistical reduction in peak capacity.  It didn't really cut load peaks too much, just by the slope of the daily curve over the east-west extent of the grid, but did help a lot with the somewhat random fluctuations and allowed more resistance to single generator failures.

Now we are talking about avoiding need for more generation by using storage to precisely level out the daily swings.  Raw generation capacity need only be equal to average demand, with some argument about the duration of storage and the length of the average.

The resultant system seems brittle to me.  If something gets a little behind it can never catch up.
The theory is that it will never get behind, mothballed plants will be brought online quickly (weeks to months) if the market price starts rising because supply is getting scarce. But the current UK grid lacks storage for peaking with only 1.6GW of hydro against a peak demand of around 60GW, compare this to the Australian installed base of 7.8GW against a peak demand of around 50GW. You can see how the hydro and gas plants are used for peaking from their energy contribution compared to their installed capacity share:
https://www.aer.gov.au/wholesale-markets/wholesale-statistics/generation-capacity-and-output-by-fuel-source
The general trend is you need to introduce more "excess" capacity for peaking/reliability, and even more again if there are intermittent renewables dumping their low cost energy into the grid. Right now the only plants that have the ability to sit idle and deliver stored power quickly are gas and hydro, oil is slower, and coal slower again, nuclear is uneconomic to run at anything other than a constant load.

The peak, measured in GW, is not a fundamentally important factor since renewables output is fairly predictable in the short term (hours). Certainly the UK's hydro is sufficient in that respect.

What is more important and difficult to achieve is storage, measured in GWh. The UK's hydro is completely insufficient for that - and will be for the foreseeable future. A noticable proportion of it has to be reserved for "black start" capability.
The peak alone is critical to this discussion about robustness, whatever sources of energy are chosen the available capacity needs to exceed the peak at all times for energy security, this is the stupid reductionist argument that the grid cannot be 100% renewable generators only as they have a chance of not being available and their available capacity is 0 (while they still manage to generate a 25-30% load factor annually). The peak to trough is important also, you can't take out the fast slewing plants and replace them with nuclear reactors (unless you accept they will be running load dumps routinely, which are possibly better than negative energy prices but at least they send a message to the market). You could have any mixture of generators coupled with storage that can deliver the peak power, then its a matter of sizing the energy storage and energy production to match the expected delivery.

The resultant system seems brittle to me.  If something gets a little behind it can never catch up.

This happens in New Zealand.

Using energy in long-term storage (hydro lakes) is very cheap compared with burning fossil fuels. This gives great commercial pressure to maximize the use of hydro, and play the "one in twenty year" game.

The generation sector are then faced with a complex problem of predicting the weather many months in advance. If there is a 'one in 20 year' dry autumn, we head into winter with lower than required storage lake levels, and possibly insufficient fossil fuel generation capacity to cover peak winter demand if hydro runs out.

This lack of supply pushes up the wholesale price of electricity on the spot-price market, allowing generators to make more money than had they conserved the relatively cheap hydro for use over the winter peak.

So using hydro when storage is mostly full, or cover peak loads would maximize security of supply. The opposite maximizes return to generator shareholders who makes the most when lakes have been emptied.
Gas/Coal/Nuclear fuel delivery can be interrupted too, and some reserve is stored for those possibilities. If the hydro was emptied and then there is inadequate energy available over winter then the hydro plants were operated sub optimally from a market perspective, they will generate the most money when the market is on the brink of collapse and are the only options available. Time for some pumped storage instead of relying only on the natural catchment.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 01:07:37 am by Someone »
 

Offline tronde

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Re: Environmentalists and Nuclear Energy
« Reply #109 on: December 15, 2016, 01:11:37 am »
Correct. In this country we changed the law so that a reactor deemed dangerous could continue to operate...... We don't need nuclear, we are not ready for it. A capitalist society will never be ready for nuclear.

Simon, please keep in mind that the worst nuclear plant incident happened in a government owned plant in a socialist society.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster

What nuclear technology needs is accountability, not ideology.

So, how does it come Three Mile Island happened? US turned communinst? It could very well be the US instead of Russia in the nuclear disaster hall of fame.
 
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Offline hamster_nz

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Re: Environmentalists and Nuclear Energy
« Reply #110 on: December 15, 2016, 01:50:07 am »

This happens in New Zealand.

Using energy in long-term storage (hydro lakes) is very cheap compared with burning fossil fuels. This gives great commercial pressure to maximize the use of hydro, and play the "one in twenty year" game.

The generation sector are then faced with a complex problem of predicting the weather many months in advance. If there is a 'one in 20 year' dry autumn, we head into winter with lower than required storage lake levels, and possibly insufficient fossil fuel generation capacity to cover peak winter demand if hydro runs out.

This lack of supply pushes up the wholesale price of electricity on the spot-price market, allowing generators to make more money than had they conserved the relatively cheap hydro for use over the winter peak.

So using hydro when storage is mostly full, or cover peak loads would maximize security of supply. The opposite maximizes return to generator shareholders who makes the most when lakes have been emptied.
Gas/Coal/Nuclear fuel delivery can be interrupted too, and some reserve is stored for those possibilities. If the hydro was emptied and then there is inadequate energy available over winter then the hydro plants were operated sub optimally from a market perspective, they will generate the most money when the market is on the brink of collapse and are the only options available. Time for some pumped storage instead of relying only on the natural catchment.

Are you are saying that while generating using hydro (over spring/summer), we also need to pump the water from the tailraces back into the lake (using fossil fuel generated power) to allow hydro generation when short of water due to the unpredictable natural catchment.

Humm... sounds just a little bit fishy to me. :D


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Offline zapta

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Re: Environmentalists and Nuclear Energy
« Reply #111 on: December 15, 2016, 03:51:28 am »
Correct. In this country we changed the law so that a reactor deemed dangerous could continue to operate...... We don't need nuclear, we are not ready for it. A capitalist society will never be ready for nuclear.

Simon, please keep in mind that the worst nuclear plant incident happened in a government owned plant in a socialist society.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster

What nuclear technology needs is accountability, not ideology.

So, how does it come Three Mile Island happened? US turned communinst? It could very well be the US instead of Russia in the nuclear disaster hall of fame.

???

Did I said that *all* nuclear incidents were in socialists power plants?  Please read my post again.

Simon dismissed private capitalist operators and I kindly reminded him that is was a socialist government that was responsible for the worst accident so far.
 

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Re: Environmentalists and Nuclear Energy
« Reply #112 on: December 15, 2016, 04:48:40 am »

This happens in New Zealand.

Using energy in long-term storage (hydro lakes) is very cheap compared with burning fossil fuels. This gives great commercial pressure to maximize the use of hydro, and play the "one in twenty year" game.

The generation sector are then faced with a complex problem of predicting the weather many months in advance. If there is a 'one in 20 year' dry autumn, we head into winter with lower than required storage lake levels, and possibly insufficient fossil fuel generation capacity to cover peak winter demand if hydro runs out.

This lack of supply pushes up the wholesale price of electricity on the spot-price market, allowing generators to make more money than had they conserved the relatively cheap hydro for use over the winter peak.

So using hydro when storage is mostly full, or cover peak loads would maximize security of supply. The opposite maximizes return to generator shareholders who makes the most when lakes have been emptied.
Gas/Coal/Nuclear fuel delivery can be interrupted too, and some reserve is stored for those possibilities. If the hydro was emptied and then there is inadequate energy available over winter then the hydro plants were operated sub optimally from a market perspective, they will generate the most money when the market is on the brink of collapse and are the only options available. Time for some pumped storage instead of relying only on the natural catchment.

Are you are saying that while generating using hydro (over spring/summer), we also need to pump the water from the tailraces back into the lake (using fossil fuel generated power) to allow hydro generation when short of water due to the unpredictable natural catchment.

Humm... sounds just a little bit fishy to me. :D
If you're going to play the game of negative corner cases then yes, if its raining at one end of the country and the hydro dams are close to capacity they will run and produce (almost) zero marginal cost electricity, which if you have some form of storage which isn't full (such as other hydro) that can absorb the excess at a low price for later dispatch.

And yes, if you are planning to need more energy in the future you would run the coal plants and pump extra electrical energy into the dams. Even if its during a period when the price is relatively high, if the price will be higher later when the grid approaches its limit and all the opportunistic generators with high marginal cost have been called upon already. Predicting that is not simple, but they can make out like bandits if planned well.
 

Offline hamster_nz

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Re: Environmentalists and Nuclear Energy
« Reply #113 on: December 15, 2016, 05:50:48 am »
And yes, if you are planning to need more energy in the future you would run the coal plants and pump extra electrical energy into the dams. Even if its during a period when the price is relatively high, if the price will be higher later when the grid approaches its limit and all the opportunistic generators with high marginal cost have been called upon already. Predicting that is not simple, but they can make out like bandits if planned well.

It isn't a lack of generation capacity, it is miking the cash cow of (govenrment built) hydro while the sun shines, forcing the burning of fossil fuels during winter.

2008 - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2008/jun/09/alternativeenergy.energy
New Zealanders are to be urged to wash dishes by hand and turn off lights as the country teeters on the brink of a power crisis caused by drought.


2012 - http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/6478238/Winter-power-shortages-loom
Electricity companies and industry are in talks about a looming hydro power shortage this winter.

2013 - http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10875947
New Zealand could face power shortages this winter unless the hydro lakes get a significant boost soon.

Anyhow, I see this is approaching your ideology around free markets being best, so I will leave it alone....
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Re: Environmentalists and Nuclear Energy
« Reply #114 on: December 15, 2016, 06:55:04 am »
And yes, if you are planning to need more energy in the future you would run the coal plants and pump extra electrical energy into the dams. Even if its during a period when the price is relatively high, if the price will be higher later when the grid approaches its limit and all the opportunistic generators with high marginal cost have been called upon already. Predicting that is not simple, but they can make out like bandits if planned well.

It isn't a lack of generation capacity, it is miking the cash cow of (govenrment built) hydro while the sun shines, forcing the burning of fossil fuels during winter.

2008 - https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2008/jun/09/alternativeenergy.energy
New Zealanders are to be urged to wash dishes by hand and turn off lights as the country teeters on the brink of a power crisis caused by drought.


2012 - http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/6478238/Winter-power-shortages-loom
Electricity companies and industry are in talks about a looming hydro power shortage this winter.

2013 - http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10875947
New Zealand could face power shortages this winter unless the hydro lakes get a significant boost soon.

Anyhow, I see this is approaching your ideology around free markets being best, so I will leave it alone....
If you're extracting all the energy available from the hydro resources then thats ideal, the coal would need to make up the short fall at some point and that may as well be directly to the grid without storage losses. But the inability to meet the winter peaks that sure looks like a lack of generation capacity, so how much power is available in NZ from electricity storage systems?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pumped-storage_hydroelectric_power_stations
Zero? Which is silly when the markets have such large swings:
https://www.electricityinfo.co.nz/comitFta/ftaPage.prices?pNode=HAY2201
Sure not all the existing hydro dams have enough head or basin to support an upgrade to storage but those that could would be very profitable against the short term fluctuations of the NZ market:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_electricity_market#Wholesale_spot_market

All the pieces are in place, either managing the existing energy storage better or adding new capacity.
 

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Re: Environmentalists and Nuclear Energy
« Reply #115 on: December 15, 2016, 07:46:52 am »
Correct. In this country we changed the law so that a reactor deemed dangerous could continue to operate...... We don't need nuclear, we are not ready for it. A capitalist society will never be ready for nuclear.

Simon, please keep in mind that the worst nuclear plant incident happened in a government owned plant in a socialist society.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster

What nuclear technology needs is accountability, not ideology.

Yes and what I am saying is that we don't and never will have the accountability, if you want to dress that as ideology then so be it. We all know that this country does not do accoutability. Our government is accountable to no one and they are in the hands of the corporate interests they have handed our infrastructure to.
 

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Re: Environmentalists and Nuclear Energy
« Reply #116 on: December 15, 2016, 07:49:18 am »
This discussion has become pointless as some won't discuss, they ignore the points they don't want to answer and put words in other peoples mouths.
 

Offline hamster_nz

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Re: Environmentalists and Nuclear Energy
« Reply #117 on: December 15, 2016, 08:16:44 am »
All the pieces are in place, either managing the existing energy storage better or adding new capacity.
Pumped storage isn't built, because for use it makes no sense. If we had a large component of wind or solar generation it might start to be sensible to pump water uphill to store any excess generation capacity. However, because the bulk of the generation from water stored in lakes it doesn't - you can leave the water sitting in the lakes.

The way the market works doesn't reward management of the resource in the energy consumers interest (a fairly level, predictable price with high security of supply). It rewards generators to exploit the nearly free hydro resource when demand is low, and doing so to create supply-side shortages that raise the spot price at peak periods.
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Re: Environmentalists and Nuclear Energy
« Reply #118 on: December 15, 2016, 08:48:27 am »
All the pieces are in place, either managing the existing energy storage better or adding new capacity.
Pumped storage isn't built, because for use it makes no sense. If we had a large component of wind or solar generation it might start to be sensible to pump water uphill to store any excess generation capacity. However, because the bulk of the generation from water stored in lakes it doesn't - you can leave the water sitting in the lakes.
The above links predicted mass problems because the hydro lakes were low/emptied, while the coal power stations continued running below capacity, there was a peak capacity problem not a lack of energy in the system. Thats exactly the use case for pumped hydro.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Environmentalists and Nuclear Energy
« Reply #119 on: December 15, 2016, 10:23:15 am »
A little off topic, but is no one else concerned about all of this optimization, regardless of the raw source of the power.

Once upon a time all generation was local, and had to be sized for peak loads.  Inefficient, but lots of inherent excess capacity almost all of the time.  Made a pretty robust system.

Then we started grids and sharing power over regions.  Allowed for statistical reduction in peak capacity.  It didn't really cut load peaks too much, just by the slope of the daily curve over the east-west extent of the grid, but did help a lot with the somewhat random fluctuations and allowed more resistance to single generator failures.

Now we are talking about avoiding need for more generation by using storage to precisely level out the daily swings.  Raw generation capacity need only be equal to average demand, with some argument about the duration of storage and the length of the average.

The resultant system seems brittle to me.  If something gets a little behind it can never catch up.
The theory is that it will never get behind, mothballed plants will be brought online quickly (weeks to months) if the market price starts rising because supply is getting scarce. But the current UK grid lacks storage for peaking with only 1.6GW of hydro against a peak demand of around 60GW, compare this to the Australian installed base of 7.8GW against a peak demand of around 50GW. You can see how the hydro and gas plants are used for peaking from their energy contribution compared to their installed capacity share:
https://www.aer.gov.au/wholesale-markets/wholesale-statistics/generation-capacity-and-output-by-fuel-source
The general trend is you need to introduce more "excess" capacity for peaking/reliability, and even more again if there are intermittent renewables dumping their low cost energy into the grid. Right now the only plants that have the ability to sit idle and deliver stored power quickly are gas and hydro, oil is slower, and coal slower again, nuclear is uneconomic to run at anything other than a constant load.

The peak, measured in GW, is not a fundamentally important factor since renewables output is fairly predictable in the short term (hours). Certainly the UK's hydro is sufficient in that respect.

What is more important and difficult to achieve is storage, measured in GWh. The UK's hydro is completely insufficient for that - and will be for the foreseeable future. A noticable proportion of it has to be reserved for "black start" capability.
The peak alone is critical to this discussion about robustness,

No. The instantaneous peak (measured in Watts) is merely one of the factors; the duration of the peak is just as fundamental. That's most sensibly measured in power-over-time, i.e. energy i.e. Watt-hours.

The UK has perfectly adequate short term (tens of minutes) pumped storage capacity, but nowhere near sufficient for the troughs related to intermittent renewables.

Quote
whatever sources of energy are chosen the available capacity needs to exceed the peak at all times for energy security, this is the stupid reductionist argument that the grid cannot be 100% renewable generators only as they have a chance of not being available and their available capacity is 0 (while they still manage to generate a 25-30% load factor annually). The peak to trough is important also, you can't take out the fast slewing plants and replace them with nuclear reactors (unless you accept they will be running load dumps routinely, which are possibly better than negative energy prices but at least they send a message to the market). You could have any mixture of generators coupled with storage that can deliver the peak power, then its a matter of sizing the energy storage and energy production to match the expected delivery.

And the latter is subject to - and largely determined by - practicality and economics.

Quote
If the hydro was emptied and then there is inadequate energy available over winter then the hydro plants were operated sub optimally from a market perspective, they will generate the most money when the market is on the brink of collapse and are the only options available.

Heaven preserve us from people that think they understand how markets work.

Let's consider a very simple example from a different domain, the supply of Christmas Crackers or bananas (which are the same as PCs in the sense that if either are on the shelf too long, they begin to smell).

The worst thing that can happen to a retailer is that they order too many crackers/bananas/PCs and are left with them on the shelves after Christmas or when they are rotting. If there's a 10% margin on each product, then if 10% are left over that's the whole profit from the entire 100% gone down the drain. The normal response is to order slightly fewer than they think they could sell, say 90%. Then they have reduced the risk of losing 100% profit to not gaining 10% of the profit. Don't take analogies too far, but similar phenomena do occur in many markets.

In other cases, a valid market strategy is to squeeze as much profit out of consumers for a limited time, and then simply exit the market. Bugger the consumers; they are then somebody else's problem. That repeatedly happens here in transport and healthcare industries.

Anybody that puts all their trust in "market forces" is simply ignorant of history and economics. Even Adam Smith recognised that!
« Last Edit: December 15, 2016, 01:20:26 pm by tggzzz »
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Offline plazma

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Re: Environmentalists and Nuclear Energy
« Reply #120 on: December 15, 2016, 11:16:22 am »
Finland has an ongoing plan for burying the nuclear waste https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onkalo_spent_nuclear_fuel_repository
 

Offline hamster_nz

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Re: Environmentalists and Nuclear Energy
« Reply #121 on: December 15, 2016, 06:20:17 pm »
The above links predicted mass problems because the hydro lakes were low/emptied, while the coal power stations continued running below capacity, there was a peak capacity problem not a lack of energy in the system. Thats exactly the use case for pumped hydro.
And why were the lake levels low? Because spring melt-water was used during summer, whenthe low wholesale price made it 'uneconomical' to run the thermal generators. When it should have been stored for use during winter.

Adding extra thermal generation capacity that will be needed for 2 days a year isn't the answer - it ties up capital for minimal return. The correct way is to turn the existing thermal generation on for a few more days during off-peak time, and saving more energy in the lakes.

it is a management of the lake capacity issue.
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Offline tronde

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Re: Environmentalists and Nuclear Energy
« Reply #122 on: December 15, 2016, 06:28:08 pm »
Correct. In this country we changed the law so that a reactor deemed dangerous could continue to operate...... We don't need nuclear, we are not ready for it. A capitalist society will never be ready for nuclear.

Simon, please keep in mind that the worst nuclear plant incident happened in a government owned plant in a socialist society.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster

What nuclear technology needs is accountability, not ideology.

So, how does it come Three Mile Island happened? US turned communinst? It could very well be the US instead of Russia in the nuclear disaster hall of fame.

???

Did I said that *all* nuclear incidents were in socialists power plants?  Please read my post again.

Simon dismissed private capitalist operators and I kindly reminded him that is was a socialist government that was responsible for the worst accident so far.

No, you did not say all. But it's quite difficult to read you in another way than non-capitalist economies are worse, and a quite large part of the problem. The problem with nuclear and a possible disaster is not about "most disastrous". Even a much smaller accident than Chernobyl can be a disaster given the right conditions.
Three Mile Island was pure luck for the US, so no reason to blame other. Fukushima could also have been worse. Neither the US nor Japan can be seen as "socialist", so please adjust to reality.

When you employ technology that must be fool-proof, you ask for trouble. Either you will have to handle pure neglect, or you can face the "oh shit, we forgot" moment. It does not matter what the reason for an accident is. It's the results that matters, and I myself prefer to stay away from nuclear as much as possible. Norway is quite far away from Chernobyl, but we do still face trouble with radiation in animals used for food because of it. A slightly different wind direction in 1986 and we would have been in deep shit.
 

Online Someone

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Re: Environmentalists and Nuclear Energy
« Reply #123 on: December 15, 2016, 10:04:48 pm »
The peak, measured in GW, is not a fundamentally important factor since renewables output is fairly predictable in the short term (hours). Certainly the UK's hydro is sufficient in that respect.

What is more important and difficult to achieve is storage, measured in GWh. The UK's hydro is completely insufficient for that - and will be for the foreseeable future. A noticable proportion of it has to be reserved for "black start" capability.
The peak alone is critical to this discussion about robustness,

No. The instantaneous peak (measured in Watts) is merely one of the factors; the duration of the peak is just as fundamental. That's most sensibly measured in power-over-time, i.e. energy i.e. Watt-hours.

The UK has perfectly adequate short term (tens of minutes) pumped storage capacity, but nowhere near sufficient for the troughs related to intermittent renewables.
If you'd stop cutting out peoples quotes to try and make arguments of them I specifically said that both are necessary:
The peak alone is critical to this discussion about robustness, whatever sources of energy are chosen the available capacity needs to exceed the peak at all times for energy security, this is the stupid reductionist argument that the grid cannot be 100% renewable generators only as they have a chance of not being available and their available capacity is 0 (while they still manage to generate a 25-30% load factor annually). The peak to trough is important also, you can't take out the fast slewing plants and replace them with nuclear reactors (unless you accept they will be running load dumps routinely, which are possibly better than negative energy prices but at least they send a message to the market). You could have any mixture of generators coupled with storage that can deliver the peak power, then its a matter of sizing the energy storage and energy production to match the expected delivery.
You're the one saying incorrectly a part of this balance is unimportant.

In other cases, a valid market strategy is to squeeze as much profit out of consumers for a limited time, and then simply exit the market. Bugger the consumers; they are then somebody else's problem. That repeatedly happens here in transport and healthcare industries.
Except the UK power grid pays generators to sit on standby for supply of the last of the peaking loads, and offers generous prices for that electricity produced. So they're adding more robustness by giving additional incentives to those who provide it.
 

Online Someone

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Re: Environmentalists and Nuclear Energy
« Reply #124 on: December 15, 2016, 10:13:24 pm »
The above links predicted mass problems because the hydro lakes were low/emptied, while the coal power stations continued running below capacity, there was a peak capacity problem not a lack of energy in the system. Thats exactly the use case for pumped hydro.
And why were the lake levels low? Because spring melt-water was used during summer, whenthe low wholesale price made it 'uneconomical' to run the thermal generators. When it should have been stored for use during winter.

Adding extra thermal generation capacity that will be needed for 2 days a year isn't the answer - it ties up capital for minimal return. The correct way is to turn the existing thermal generation on for a few more days during off-peak time, and saving more energy in the lakes.

it is a management of the lake capacity issue.
You're wandering off again, if you refer to the full quote:
All the pieces are in place, either managing the existing energy storage better or adding new capacity.
Pumped storage isn't built, because for use it makes no sense. If we had a large component of wind or solar generation it might start to be sensible to pump water uphill to store any excess generation capacity. However, because the bulk of the generation from water stored in lakes it doesn't - you can leave the water sitting in the lakes.
The above links predicted mass problems because the hydro lakes were low/emptied, while the coal power stations continued running below capacity, there was a peak capacity problem not a lack of energy in the system. Thats exactly the use case for pumped hydro.
And why were the lake levels low? Because spring melt-water was used during summer, whenthe low wholesale price made it 'uneconomical' to run the thermal generators. When it should have been stored for use during winter.

Adding extra thermal generation capacity that will be needed for 2 days a year isn't the answer - it ties up capital for minimal return. The correct way is to turn the existing thermal generation on for a few more days during off-peak time, and saving more energy in the lakes.

it is a management of the lake capacity issue.
I discuss both options as being feasible.

Yes, its possible to avoid the problems you are talking about by using the hydro energy more sparingly and rely more on coal to avoid draining the dams.
or
Since the rest of the generators in the grid aren't running at full load consistently throughout the winter you could add some storage capacity to achieve the same increased reliability.

Which one would be cheaper? Probably management in the short term, and probably storage in the long term.
 


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