Author Topic: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...  (Read 10074 times)

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Offline Marco

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My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« on: June 23, 2018, 05:12:16 am »
My nation wants to enact a law that the CO2 emissions in 2030 have to be reduced by 49% relative to 1990. Part of this is supposed to be the entire elimination of gas in home heating. Our electricity is almost 2.5x more expensive than gas for heating ... increasing isolation for the existing housing stock can help a little, but unless you build entirely new walls and roofs around the existing ones there's limited gains to be had. Even ignoring that yearly costs will nearly double even with investment in isolation, it's going to cost households billions to install electric heating. Of course industry and electricity generation are far larger producers of CO2, households despite the staggering costs would only be a drop in the pond. Once the law for reduction is on the books you can be certain the state will be sued if they don't try hard enough by environmentalists.

Why the fuck are we in the EU if our tiny fucking little nation will try to value signal entirely alone? What is that supposed to fucking accomplish? Installing wind mills and making industrial electricity cheap helps industry competitiveness at least, while raising consumer electricity prices and lowering disposable income, just like in Germany ... but what my government is trying now will murder our economy.

Either they've gone full retard, or this is just intentional sabotage of the Dutch economy to the benefit of poorer countries in the EU, as well as part of a small attack on Russia. Disingenuous and downright treasonous. Don't attribute to malice is all fine and well, but this is next level retardation.
 
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Offline Potato

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2018, 05:43:54 am »
You should follow our solution
 
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Offline Howardlong

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2018, 05:45:00 am »
You should follow our solution

Dangerous talk!
 
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Offline Marco

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2018, 06:03:17 am »
The EU isn't really forcing this on us, at least not in the sense of explicit laws and regulations (although I'm 100% certain high level international discussion play a role in it, this is meant to reduce dependence on Russian gas). Our politicians are inflicting these wounds on us, pretending the consequences won't be disastrous. Media and academia going along with it, for fear of being on the wrong side of history ... and getting bumped off the globalist trough. If you want your invitation to Davos and a future in (European) politics you better toe the line.

Populists and occasionally an old pensioned relic who doesn't want in on the globalist through might speak the truth but everyone else is too scared (can't make a google translate link, it's old board director of E.On stating the obvious, there is no meaning in going ahead of the pack in CO2 reductions ... this belongs at the EU level).
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2018, 06:07:45 am »
But the retards are in house.
 

Offline Kleinstein

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2018, 06:33:40 am »
Once energy prices go up, better insulation is saving you more money.  :-DD

It depends on how electric heating is implemented. With a reasonable quality heat pump, the overall energy costs may not be higher than with heating by just burning natural gas.  AFAIK the Netherlands currently uses quite a lot of combined heat and electricity. So it could be a good match to have the larger units to also produce electricity and the smaller ones to use that electricity for heating. If just using resistive heater it is already as efficient has direct heating with gas.
 

Offline Synthtech

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2018, 06:34:29 am »
Australia is heading the same way into extreme energy poverty. They are shutting down and demolishing our base load power stations one by one (and we don’t have many) and although we have enormous oil reserves the country does not have a single refinery. 
 
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Online bd139

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2018, 06:40:59 am »
We’re doing the worst. Ignoring the self righteous suicide going on, all our reactors are ancient and falling to bits, sellafield is a disaster zone and prices are going up. Coal is looking like a good option again.

Gas has to go though.

Looking at off grid power solutions myself. At some point this will all fall on its arse. 

Ignore climate laws. They are there only for the narrow window when necessity is low. We’re in a relative bubble of luxury at the moment.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2018, 06:43:05 am by bd139 »
 
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Offline NANDBlog

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2018, 06:55:59 am »
Now you tell me, I'm moving there on this weekend...
In any case, I agree with the politicians on this. Electric floor heating is very cheap to install on new homes. It is less bulky, easier to adjust per room, and gives a much nicer comfort. We are talking about thousands of euros less upfront cost. And you can spend the same money on solar.
And with a few extra offshore wind farm it is already solved.
 
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Online Kjelt

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2018, 07:16:07 am »
It makes little sense as a tiny country to be best in class while the biggest countries are abandoning the environmental deals. I am afraid it is going to be:
"And we are all going down together...."
 

Offline Marco

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2018, 07:29:49 am »
If just using resistive heater it is already as efficient has direct heating with gas.
Our electricity is very expensive and only getting moreso, I'm sure you can sympathise.
 

Offline jpanhalt

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2018, 07:33:18 am »
I don't know.  I have great faith in the people of the Netherlands and their resourcefulness.    They can save the world.   

Now, the only  question, is there too much, too little, or just enough CO2?  Geological processes, except for a few volcanoes, tend to remove CO2.  In the 1950's, that concern led to a prediction of "snowball Earth" (See Scientific American article of the ephinomous title).  Earth is outside the "Goldilocks" zone of the Sun.  Of course, Al Gore had not launched his political career yet based on a  lie.

I find it hard to believe that one traitor's avarice will change the real science.
 
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Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2018, 07:48:20 am »
Directed heating/cooling is a solution that is often overlooked. Pretty much just use infrared sensors to detect where the people are in the room and direct the heating/cooling as needed. A very basic implementation could be a Raspberry Pi with a low resolution thermal imager controlling some servo motors that point an infrared heat lamp, with the heat lamp phase angle controlled.
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Online MK14

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2018, 07:59:41 am »
Directed heating/cooling is a solution that is often overlooked. Pretty much just use infrared sensors to detect where the people are in the room and direct the heating/cooling as needed. A very basic implementation could be a Raspberry Pi with a low resolution thermal imager controlling some servo motors that point an infrared heat lamp, with the heat lamp phase angle controlled.

Good/interesting idea.

But any objects you touch/hold/use, will be at a rather cold temperature (so they would be unpleasant to touch). Also what about humidity, and the tendency for water to condensate on things, if there are significant temperature differences, in the same room.
Also, there is a risk of cold air draughts.
 

Online bd139

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2018, 08:01:05 am »
When I was a kid we just got told "put a bloody jumper and some socks on and stop moaning"  :-DD
 
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Offline sleemanj

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2018, 08:14:21 am »
A quick google suggests that NL retail electricity pricing is not far removed from NZ retail electricity pricing. 

Here in NZ electrical heating is by FAR the most common heating method (around 80%), and our housing stock is traditionally very poorly insulated, we do not do "central heating" like you softies in rest of the world, wood fires have been on the decline because of the hassle, expense and environmental problems, coal fires are mostly right out, gas is bottle supply only in the vast majority of the country (and so not used much, gas hot water sometimes and the rare gas fire). 

So in short, reducing gas burning for heating is not the economic disaster you think it is, especially over such a long term, insulate, use heat pumps and dress warmer in winter, you don't need to be able to walk around your house in nothing but a budgie smuggler during the middle of winter.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2018, 08:20:50 am »
My nation wants to enact a law that the CO2 emissions in 2030 have to be reduced by 49% relative to 1990. Part of this is supposed to be the entire elimination of gas in home heating. Our electricity is almost 2.5x more expensive than gas for heating ... increasing isolation for the existing housing stock can help a little, but unless you build entirely new walls and roofs around the existing ones there's limited gains to be had. Even ignoring that yearly costs will nearly double even with investment in isolation, it's going to cost households billions to install electric heating. Of course industry and electricity generation are far larger producers of CO2, households despite the staggering costs would only be a drop in the pond. Once the law for reduction is on the books you can be certain the state will be sued if they don't try hard enough by environmentalists.

Why the fuck are we in the EU if our tiny fucking little nation will try to value signal entirely alone? What is that supposed to fucking accomplish? Installing wind mills and making industrial electricity cheap helps industry competitiveness at least, while raising consumer electricity prices and lowering disposable income, just like in Germany ... but what my government is trying now will murder our economy.

Either they've gone full retard, or this is just intentional sabotage of the Dutch economy to the benefit of poorer countries in the EU, as well as part of a small attack on Russia. Disingenuous and downright treasonous. Don't attribute to malice is all fine and well, but this is next level retardation.
You are not reading between the lines.
1) It is a prelude to build new nuclear power plants. The other day I read an article that they removed a small passage which says all energy should be renewable. This means going nuclear and/or storing CO2 underground. The latter ain't gonna happen (unsafe for future generations and chance on earth quakes) so there is your answer.

2) It is a fact that Europe doesn't have much oil and gas reserves (left) so alternative sources and reduction are very important unless you like to sit on some Russian or Arab fist.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2018, 08:25:46 am »
When I was a kid we just got told "put a bloody jumper and some socks on and stop moaning"  :-DD


And in the summer? Oh, yeah. Sorry.  :-[

(Actually, in the winter a woolly hat makes a huge difference)
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Online Terry01

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2018, 08:30:13 am »
When I was a kid we just got told "put a bloody jumper and some socks on and stop moaning"  :-DD

LOL  ;D I must've been in the same class! I was told much the same and if I back chatted too much about it either my ear or arse seemed to get warm seriously quick and sting quite a bit and then a big red hand print appeared!

It was called "skelp"! LOL

Who the f^^k thought that 1 up? A skelp!?  :-DD
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Offline jordanp123

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2018, 08:37:59 am »
How robust is the electric grid in the country ? If they go wholesale to electric heating (I'm assuming the majority will use a heat pump type system), the additional demand would be quite substantial. You'll not only need the generation but the transmission and distribution as well.
 
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Offline Circlotron

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2018, 12:47:06 pm »
How robust is the electric grid in the country ? If they go wholesale to electric heating (I'm assuming the majority will use a heat pump type system), the additional demand would be quite substantial. You'll not only need the generation but the transmission and distribution as well.
Let’s not mention the millions of electric cars charging up too, during the night when there is no solar power.
 
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Offline Marco

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2018, 04:40:31 pm »
It depends on how electric heating is implemented. With a reasonable quality heat pump
Retrofitting one in old houses with water+radiator central heating is very expensive. Either we need more expensive and less efficient multistage heatpumps to reach the high water-temperatures necessary, or rip out floors and put in floor heating, or replace all the existing radiators with noisy forced air radiators.

Not to mention that almost all heatpumps are build way too fucking compact and noisy. We are kind of densely populated, I shudder to think what a street full of those monstrosities will sound like. If my government wants to regulate, regulate the noise of these things to 35dbA peak (not on some bullshit low noise setting, which won't be relevant). Lets see the market solve that problem first before we install a metric fuckton of them.
 
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Online tggzzz

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2018, 04:56:23 pm »
When I was a kid we just got told "put a bloody jumper and some socks on and stop moaning"  :-DD

I still tell my daughter that!

I remember "jack frost" regularly being on the inside of my bedroom window panes.
I remember when just about to get out of bed, looking at the pile of clothes on the floor and explicitly getting my mind around what was necessary to get them all on as fast as possible.
I remember how cold it was when jumping out of a hot bath into the large towel.

I also remember putting this new-fangled loft insulation down, all 1" of it!
I also remember spending days putting papier-mache into the cracks between the ground-floor floorboards.
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Offline tautech

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2018, 05:14:23 pm »
It depends on how electric heating is implemented. With a reasonable quality heat pump
Retrofitting one in old houses with water+radiator central heating is very expensive. Either we need more expensive and less efficient multistage heatpumps to reach the high water-temperatures necessary, or rip out floors and put in floor heating, or replace all the existing radiators with noisy forced air radiators.

Not to mention that almost all heatpumps are build way too fucking compact and noisy. We are kind of densely populated, I shudder to think what a street full of those monstrosities will sound like. If my government wants to regulate, regulate the noise of these things to 35dbA peak (not on some bullshit low noise setting, which won't be relevant). Lets see the market solve that problem first before we install a metric fuckton of them.
Want to see a f**kton of them, then go to Hong Kong. One wall hanger unit on every apartment window and 20 stories high. Hundreds and hundreds of them on every building.
Probably the noisiest place I've every been.

Global warming is a rort on humanity and so many have been sucked in by this BS, it's truly sad.
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Online bd139

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Re: My country is going to commit economic suicide ...
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2018, 05:36:43 pm »
When I was a kid we just got told "put a bloody jumper and some socks on and stop moaning"  :-DD

I still tell my daughter that!

I remember "jack frost" regularly being on the inside of my bedroom window panes.
I remember when just about to get out of bed, looking at the pile of clothes on the floor and explicitly getting my mind around what was necessary to get them all on as fast as possible.
I remember how cold it was when jumping out of a hot bath into the large towel.

I also remember putting this new-fangled loft insulation down, all 1" of it!
I also remember spending days putting papier-mache into the cracks between the ground-floor floorboards.

Exactly. We’ve got used to extreme comfort.

As for Jack Frost on the inside of the window, we used to drawing pin a fleece blanket over the window at night.

Also holding onto a piss until the morning when the sun had been out for a bit. It was that or go down two flights of stairs, through the kitchen and to the toilet at the back which was so cold your arse would stick to the seat. Then everyone would notice you were up first and the “put the kettle on and bring us a drink” message would be shouted down the stairs.

This wasn’t that far back for me either. 90s.
 


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