Author Topic: Reliable sources of clean energy and human nature.  (Read 13260 times)

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Offline John HeathTopic starter

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Reliable sources of clean energy and human nature.
« on: February 03, 2018, 05:08:13 pm »
Why reinvent the wheel if reliable sources of energy are already in place. Nuclear is the best one but they tax it to a point that it does not make sense. An example is energy efficient LED lights. People jumped on that one to reduce the hydro bill. The good folks in nuclear energy now have a problem as less money is coming in. Heads will roll at the next meeting. There solution is to add a delivery charge on top of hydro usage. They are back in the black so problem solved. In short it's a no win for energy in a capitalist system. We have all the clean energy we need. The problem is human greed to stand in the way of clean energy with a hand out for money. To give this balance the crumbs that fall off the table from a capitalist system are better then the crumbs that come from a government like China. On average capitalism is better.

One way around this is a small locally built energy source , water dam , wind mill , what ever with fewer sticky fingers in the cookie jar. In other words the answer to affordable clean energy is already in place. The real problem is sticky fingers in the cookie jar.

I know a guy who resolved the sticky fingers problem in Chile. He bought some land half way up a mountain then build his own house along with some pluming to a water source higher up. He was clever at engineering so a small hydro plant was soon to follow. In 20 years he has not payed one hydro bill. As I said before clean energy is already in place. It is the sticky fingers that is the problem. Have a gander at paradise in Chile. 

https://ludens.cl/

 

Offline max_torque

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Re: Reliable sources of clean energy and human nature.
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2018, 09:56:33 pm »
Gonna be crowded on that hill when the worlds 7.6 Billion inhabitants move their to get cheap 'lecy..........


(solving one mans (or one families) energy needs in a clean, efficient way is easy.  Solving the planets needs, a lot harder)
 

Offline John HeathTopic starter

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Re: Reliable sources of clean energy and human nature.
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2018, 11:20:08 pm »
Good point. Plan B everyone protest against government using hydro power money as a quick tax grab. If they need more money to run the country then say so honestly and up front. This will free up clean and cheap nuclear energy for electric cars and heat homes. The sooner we get away from burning oil the better. Someone stands tall and says I need to increase taxes to run the country , vote for me. Not likely. It's the good looking one " I am your perfume you stinky animal vote for me " that gets elected. The problem with democracy is everyone want to vote.
 

Online DougSpindler

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Re: Reliable sources of clean energy and human nature.
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2018, 02:25:16 pm »
Seems Ike everyone knows a guy who has a solution hat works for him.  (But non one knows who the guy’s name or where he lives.  For every guy like you described there are a thousand who it didn’t work for.

Have you ever tried doing the water to electrical energy calculation?  With a 10 foot drop in elevation one needs 500,000 gallons of water to continually produce 750 watts of electricity for a year.   That”s a lot of water.  And just think how little 750 watts is.  In using all 750 watts ther’s no enough electricity for my daughter to blow dry her hair.

Here’s an interesting figure.  The amount of work one can get out of 50 gallons of gasoline is the same amount as 10 slaves working for a year.

Interesting statistic.

 
 

Offline Gregg

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Re: Reliable sources of clean energy and human nature.
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2018, 04:29:29 pm »
Then there are the so called "environmentalists" that won't let you mess with the water flow of any stream because you might bother the fish or worse yet they will search for some relatively unknown life form that is "endangered" to prevent you from using your own land.  These same people still want to plug in their "green" electric cars, run their air conditioners etc.
 

Online DougSpindler

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Re: Reliable sources of clean energy and human nature.
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2018, 04:58:51 pm »
I have found environmentalist who have traded in their car for a bike to save the planet.  But I have yet to meet an an environmentalst who will give up a wahingmachine and do laundry by hand to save the planet.   

As for the fish in the sreams, you should do a bit of research before condemning the environmentalists.  Where I live a local stream was dammed decades ago which prevented fish from traveling upstream.  In your mind your are thinking big deal, right?  It is a big deal.  The lack of fish meant lack of food for animals upstream that would feed on the fish.  Now the animals have to switch to a different food source.  The animals they were eating allowed other animals to take their place on the food chain which caused other issues.  This ultimately required local farmers to use pesticides kill off critters which in the past had not bothered them.   

There are consequences for everything we do.  Don’t thing damming a stream does’t have an impact on our environment, it does.

I live in California where we have some the the toughest anti-pollution laws.  Thank you legislators for enacting these laws decades ago as we have clean air now.  I remember as a kid There were days when the sky was a greenish-yellow-brown from air pollution.  We were told to stay inside as the air was unsafe to breath.  Thanks to California’s anti-polution laws we have not had any smog days in decades.

In the past we use to dump untreated human waste into the Pacific Ocean making the beaches and water unsafe..  Thanks to environmentalists and legislators waste water has to be treated.  Our beaches and water like the air is clean again.

But not for much longer.  Air pollution from China is blowing across the Pacific Ocean and we are on the verge of having smog days once again.  And Mexico is dumping their raw sewage in the Pacific Ocean which is traveling north along th cost of California polluting the oceans and beaches.

Environmentalists and government worked very hard decades ago to clean things up.  Now we are getting screwed again by our neighbors who don’t care about the planet.
 
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Offline f4eru

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Re: Reliable sources of clean energy and human nature.
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2018, 05:26:39 pm »
Quote
Why reinvent the wheel if reliable sources of energy are already in place. Nuclear is the best one but they tax it to a point that it does not make sense
Nuclear is toxic waste. Hardly the "best" source of energy.

Online DougSpindler

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Re: Reliable sources of clean energy and human nature.
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2018, 05:42:41 pm »
Quote
Why reinvent the wheel if reliable sources of energy are already in place. Nuclear is the best one but they tax it to a point that it does not make sense
Nuclear is toxic waste. Hardly the "best" source of energy.

Ummm, you might wnat to rethink that.  Without nuclear energy we would not exist.  It is nucelar energy which provides energy for plant to grow, which we eat, and energy for humans.  Nuclear energy in 100% natural.  And the first nuclear reactor was not man made, it was 100% naturaly made.

Nuclear energy from fusion creates no long lasting toxic waste which is why so many companies and nations are working on it.  NIF, ITER, Bill Gates' company, Paul Alllen's company and many others.

Yes some nuclear watse is toxic and humans did stupid things with it in the past.  I live in Califonria and the University of Califonrina dumped all of their nuclear waste in the Pacific Ocean next to the Farrallon Islands which is a wilds life refuege.

You got a better solutin than nuclear to supply the people of the world with energy?




 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Reliable sources of clean energy and human nature.
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2018, 02:57:30 am »
Ummm, you might wnat to rethink that.  Without nuclear energy we would not exist.  It is nucelar energy which provides energy for plant to grow, which we eat, and energy for humans.  Nuclear energy in 100% natural.  And the first nuclear reactor was not man made, it was 100% naturaly made.

Nuclear energy from fusion creates no long lasting toxic waste which is why so many companies and nations are working on it.
The great fusion reactor in the sky is one I really like to take advantage of. (In my experience, it goes really well with blockchains but that's another story...) And so far, it's the only fusion reactor that has produced a useful amount of power.

Beware that while it is the safest nuclear reactor that exists, excessive exposure to its radiation can still cause cancer. Still, it is the only form of nuclear power I would actually like to see neighbors playing with.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Online DougSpindler

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Re: Reliable sources of clean energy and human nature.
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2018, 03:23:00 am »
Far more people have died have been killed from coal then with nuclear power.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Reliable sources of clean energy and human nature.
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2018, 03:27:49 am »
Far more people have died have been killed from coal then with nuclear power.

So far.... >:D
 

Online DougSpindler

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Re: Reliable sources of clean energy and human nature.
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2018, 05:42:34 am »
We’ve had two major nuclear accidents and and over 10,000 coal related accidents.  The death toll from coal accidents is 100,000 times more than nuclear.  Yes we have nuclear waste sites, but there are far more coal waste sites which are as toxic to humans.

Then let’s not forget the burning of coal releases readioactive millions of tons or radioactive isotopes intro our atmosphere every year.  Now that’s something nuclear power plants don’t do.

The next generation of nuclear power plants will use low molecular weight molecules for fuel.  Should a Chernobyl size accident occur spewing radioactive isotopes in the environment all we have to do is wait 25 years and the all of the isotopes will have decayed away.

Got a better solution than nuclear?
 

Offline woody

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Re: Reliable sources of clean energy and human nature.
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2018, 06:19:02 am »
I am against nuclear energy (the man-made variety) to generate power.

The problem I have with it is that as long as everything goes fine, the profits are raked in by the companies that build and operate these plants. A safe investment, as the price per kWh is guaranteed by the government (us) for a long time. But as soon as something goes wrong in a major way it is society that pays the big bills. In tax money for cleaning up, in lost and shortened lives of people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time, in getting uninhabitable areas where people used top live.

I will become a supporter of nuclear energy as soon as the real price of it (that includes decommissioning, insurance for cleaning up after disasters and such) is part of the price of the nuclear-generated kWh. Which I suspect will then be so much higher than power generated by alternatives that it will be unaffordable.

And to stress my point, I do think it is important that we keep searching for inherently safe nuclear solutions. With tax money, and not with venture capital.
 

Offline f4eru

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Re: Reliable sources of clean energy and human nature.
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2018, 08:04:08 am »
Quote
The death toll from coal accidents is 100,000 times more than nuclear.
That's totally wrong statistics.
The deaths induced by the contamination of the environment with radionucleides  is recorded nowhere.
And these are far higher than expected, because the waste invariably leaks out of the containment over a few years, when it's supposed to be contained a few millions of years.
BIG. FAIL.

Quote
Got a better solution than nuclear?
I use plane receptors for clean nuclear energy on my roof. No problem with them so far.
Other clean ones are hydro and wind.

Online tszaboo

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Re: Reliable sources of clean energy and human nature.
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2018, 08:45:15 am »
Just place a solar panel on every surface, where it makes sense. Rooftops, on top of parking lots, huge unused semi-desert places. Until that is done, there is nothing to talk about. Sure it is not going to solve alone the problem. But complaining about that is like complaining that we can't solve world hunger with just chocolate cakes.
 

Online DougSpindler

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Re: Reliable sources of clean energy and human nature.
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2018, 08:50:00 am »
I am against nuclear energy (the man-made variety) to generate power.

The problem I have with it is that as long as everything goes fine, the profits are raked in by the companies that build and operate these plants. A safe investment, as the price per kWh is guaranteed by the government (us) for a long time. But as soon as something goes wrong in a major way it is society that pays the big bills. In tax money for cleaning up, in lost and shortened lives of people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time, in getting uninhabitable areas where people used top live.

I will become a supporter of nuclear energy as soon as the real price of it (that includes decommissioning, insurance for cleaning up after disasters and such) is part of the price of the nuclear-generated kWh. Which I suspect will then be so much higher than power generated by alternatives that it will be unaffordable.

And to stress my point, I do think it is important that we keep searching for inherently safe nuclear solutions. With tax money, and not with venture capital.

So you are against nuclear energy....  What’s your solution?
 

Online DougSpindler

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Re: Reliable sources of clean energy and human nature.
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2018, 09:01:54 am »
Quote
The death toll from coal accidents is 100,000 times more than nuclear.
That's totally wrong statistics.
The deaths induced by the contamination of the environment with radionucleides  is recorded nowhere.
And these are far higher than expected, because the waste invariably leaks out of the containment over a few years, when it's supposed to be contained a few millions of years.
BIG. FAIL.

Quote
Got a better solution than nuclear?
I use plane receptors for clean nuclear energy on my roof. No problem with them so far.
Other clean ones are hydro and wind.

The deaths from radionuclides are recorded.  Question is, how do we know which deaths are from the radio nucleotides released from the burning of coal, nuclear power accidents, above ground testing of nuclear weapons or naturally occurring background ionizing radiation?

Nice to see you are using a plane receptor on your roof, but what about the other almost 8 billion people on this planet?  Are you selfish?  Or are you willing to share what you collect with you plane receptor?

BIG FAIL if you are selfish and just care about yourself.
 

Online DougSpindler

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Re: Reliable sources of clean energy and human nature.
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2018, 09:20:22 am »
Just place a solar panel on every surface, where it makes sense.

PV is still the most expensive source of energy in terms of initial investment per watt.
Besides, PV systems don't last forever. CPV might be an option, as it is cheaper and it is more centralized, hence easier to maintain.
But large scale CPV requires dedicated space, and can't be just placed on top of a roof. Power density of CPV is not high enough to make it viable as a dedicated energy farm in or near major cities. In remote areas, yes. But not in major cities where land is so expensive.
Small scale CPV (roof-top-able) is a promising technology, but it's not currently widely deployed for whatever reason. Maybe cost. It requires wide bandgap semiconductor technology, which is much more expensive than plain, stupid silicon.

With all due respect it apers you do not understand the physics, the technical difficulties, the cost or the amount of natural resources it would take to do what you are proposing.

Right now 2% of the worlds electricty comes from solar.  The solar industry best estimates are by 2050 we would be lucky to get that number to be 12%. So where does the other 88% of the worlds energy come from when there will be 8 billion people?  Forget cost, we just don’t have the natural resources mined, or the manufacturing capabilities or the technology to produce more than 12% in the next 30 years.

If all you care about is yourself, then throw som panels on your roof and let the rest of the world burn fossil fuels.  With the ever increasing demand for electricity the only technology we have is next gen nuclear.

Do the math and sees for yourself.

 
 

Online tszaboo

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Re: Reliable sources of clean energy and human nature.
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2018, 10:36:26 am »
Just place a solar panel on every surface, where it makes sense.

PV is still the most expensive source of energy in terms of initial investment per watt.
Besides, PV systems don't last forever. CPV might be an option, as it is cheaper and it is more centralized, hence easier to maintain.
But large scale CPV requires dedicated space, and can't be just placed on top of a roof. Power density of CPV is not high enough to make it viable as a dedicated energy farm in or near major cities. In remote areas, yes. But not in major cities where land is so expensive.
Small scale CPV (roof-top-able) is a promising technology, but it's not currently widely deployed for whatever reason. Maybe cost. It requires wide bandgap semiconductor technology, which is much more expensive than plain, stupid silicon.

With all due respect it apers you do not understand the physics, the technical difficulties, the cost or the amount of natural resources it would take to do what you are proposing.

Right now 2% of the worlds electricty comes from solar.  The solar industry best estimates are by 2050 we would be lucky to get that number to be 12%. So where does the other 88% of the worlds energy come from when there will be 8 billion people?  Forget cost, we just don’t have the natural resources mined, or the manufacturing capabilities or the technology to produce more than 12% in the next 30 years.

If all you care about is yourself, then throw som panels on your roof and let the rest of the world burn fossil fuels.  With the ever increasing demand for electricity the only technology we have is next gen nuclear.

Do the math and sees for yourself.
Large part of the world, solar is cheaper than the current generation. If you install solar, not only do you make it cleaner, you also make power generation cheaper. Thinking that solar is not going to work is like pointing at the Ford T-model and saying that its never gonna work. You only make yourself look like a fool.
EU is apparently bulding a Super-grid to link everything together, and to allow countries with bad weather to receive power from somewhere else. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_super_grid#/media/File:TREC-Map-en.jpg The rest of the world will look like they are stuck in the 20 century.
 

Online DougSpindler

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Re: Reliable sources of clean energy and human nature.
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2018, 11:31:42 am »
Just place a solar panel on every surface, where it makes sense.

PV is still the most expensive source of energy in terms of initial investment per watt.
Besides, PV systems don't last forever. CPV might be an option, as it is cheaper and it is more centralized, hence easier to maintain.
But large scale CPV requires dedicated space, and can't be just placed on top of a roof. Power density of CPV is not high enough to make it viable as a dedicated energy farm in or near major cities. In remote areas, yes. But not in major cities where land is so expensive.
Small scale CPV (roof-top-able) is a promising technology, but it's not currently widely deployed for whatever reason. Maybe cost. It requires wide bandgap semiconductor technology, which is much more expensive than plain, stupid silicon.

With all due respect it apers you do not understand the physics, the technical difficulties, the cost or the amount of natural resources it would take to do what you are proposing.

Right now 2% of the worlds electricty comes from solar.  The solar industry best estimates are by 2050 we would be lucky to get that number to be 12%. So where does the other 88% of the worlds energy come from when there will be 8 billion people?  Forget cost, we just don’t have the natural resources mined, or the manufacturing capabilities or the technology to produce more than 12% in the next 30 years.

If all you care about is yourself, then throw som panels on your roof and let the rest of the world burn fossil fuels.  With the ever increasing demand for electricity the only technology we have is next gen nuclear.

Do the math and sees for yourself.
Large part of the world, solar is cheaper than the current generation. If you install solar, not only do you make it cleaner, you also make power generation cheaper. Thinking that solar is not going to work is like pointing at the Ford T-model and saying that its never gonna work. You only make yourself look like a fool.
EU is apparently bulding a Super-grid to link everything together, and to allow countries with bad weather to receive power from somewhere else. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_super_grid#/media/File:TREC-Map-en.jpg The rest of the world will look like they are stuck in the 20 century.

Friend Henry Ford was not trying to change the laws os Physics and thermodynamics like you are.  Where are you going to get all of the raw materials to make all of these cheap solar panels?  And once you mine the raw materials where are the plants to build the panels?  Then you have to use ships and trucks to deliver these solar panels to the people who need them.  Any idea how much fossil fuel has been consumed before a panel produces any electricity?

Then what happens on cloudy days as happened in Germany and England.  Last year they had to burn more coal then they ever had even with all the people who have solar on their roofs.

If solar is so cheap as you say why did the solar companies stop selling solar in Nevada?  It’s one of the sunniest states in the country.  Could it be solar is not as inexpensive as you say?

Can I suggest you try doing what Henry Ford did before he began selling cars.... Do the math calculations to see if what you are saying makes any sense. 
 

Offline woody

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Re: Reliable sources of clean energy and human nature.
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2018, 04:07:42 pm »
So you are against nuclear energy....  What’s your solution?
I don't have THE solution but a couple of things spring to mind:

We have to understand that we are spoiled beyond belief by the fact that we could have the equivalent of 33MJ of energy in a liter of easily transportable, storable and usable fuel, costing only a dollar. These days are gone.

- Conserve as much energy as possible. Insulate. Then insulate again. Take the train/bus/bike. Live close to your work. Work from home. Stop flying. We don't have to go back to playing solitaire by candlelight or doing the laundry on a washboard as most energy is spent in heating buildings, transportation and the industry while lighting and household electricity only use a fraction of the total. But we will have to adapt our lifestyle to use less energy.

- Make the cost of energy fair. Level the play field. Stop subsidizing nuclear and fossil. When that is done we can immediately stop subsidizing renewables because these will be far cheaper than the alternatives. Supply and demand will then lead to large investments in renewable energy generation. Fair pricing of energy will no doubt impact the price we pay for stuff. An iPhone, a steak, a car, a holiday to the sun, and a same-day-delivery from Amazon will be way more expensive and rightly so.

- Invest heavily in research in electricity storage. There are lots of options based on batteries, hydrogen, formic acid, compressed air, flywheels, Energy trains, pumped storage and what not, that all need to be taken out of the lab and into the field.

The changeover to renewable energy will have a big impact on us and will certainly hurt in some ways. But taking into account that the amount of clean solar energy that hits the surface of the earth every hour is equivalent of the total human energy use in a year we would be stupid not to harness that in some way. And stupid we are not.
 
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Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: Reliable sources of clean energy and human nature.
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2018, 04:31:30 pm »
The solution? All of the above. A mixed basket.

But the particular energy source mix is very dependent on where exactly you live. For instance, geothermal is great in Iceland, not so much on Saudi Arabia.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Reliable sources of clean energy and human nature.
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2018, 04:40:32 pm »
Forget cost, we just don’t have the natural resources mined

3M thinks they can do 25 year lifetime with polymer barrier film, the amount of silicon can go down a lot too. Once the important part is flexible you don't need a lot of rigidity in the housing anymore either. Instead of solar panels well have large sheets held in tension in light weight frames with a fraction of the materials used now.
 

Online DougSpindler

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Re: Reliable sources of clean energy and human nature.
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2018, 05:13:53 pm »
So you are against nuclear energy....  What’s your solution?
I don't have THE solution but a couple of things spring to mind:

We have to understand that we are spoiled beyond belief by the fact that we could have the equivalent of 33MJ of energy in a liter of easily transportable, storable and usable fuel, costing only a dollar. These days are gone.

- Conserve as much energy as possible. Insulate. Then insulate again. Take the train/bus/bike. Live close to your work. Work from home. Stop flying. We don't have to go back to playing solitaire by candlelight or doing the laundry on a washboard as most energy is spent in heating buildings, transportation and the industry while lighting and household electricity only use a fraction of the total. But we will have to adapt our lifestyle to use less energy.

- Make the cost of energy fair. Level the play field. Stop subsidizing nuclear and fossil. When that is done we can immediately stop subsidizing renewables because these will be far cheaper than the alternatives. Supply and demand will then lead to large investments in renewable energy generation. Fair pricing of energy will no doubt impact the price we pay for stuff. An iPhone, a steak, a car, a holiday to the sun, and a same-day-delivery from Amazon will be way more expensive and rightly so.

- Invest heavily in research in electricity storage. There are lots of options based on batteries, hydrogen, formic acid, compressed air, flywheels, Energy trains, pumped storage and what not, that all need to be taken out of the lab and into the field.

The changeover to renewable energy will have a big impact on us and will certainly hurt in some ways. But taking into account that the amount of clean solar energy that hits the surface of the earth every hour is equivalent of the total human energy use in a year we would be stupid not to harness that in some way. And stupid we are not.

No disrespect intended, but really, this is you answer? 
Have you done any calculations, (Henry Ford did), to see how much energy insulating and then insulating again would save?

You do realize we subsidize the solar and wind industry.  Energy from coal is more expensive then solar and wind.  We will probably never go back to using coal.

Natural gas is so inexpensive right now, it’s almost being given away.

We have been investing in electricty storage for over 100 year.  The laws of physics and thermodynamics are exactly the same as they were then, as they are now.

Do you have any idea how much energy can be stored in batteries, hydrogen, formic acid, compressed air, flywheels?  Have you done or seen the calculation?  It’s not much.  If all of the batteries in the world were to be used to store and provide electricty it would supply less than 5 minutes of our electrical needs.

Here you have all of these wonderful ideas but have you looked to see just how practical they are in application?

Yes we can conserve, but only 1/8 of the world is using 90% of the energy.  Are you going to deprive the other 7/8s of the world who need electricty for clean drinking water and cooking that electricty?

Can I ask you to become more familiar with your fellow man and get to know what’s happening on this planet we live on?

Man is the only species which uses more energy than we consume.  We alway have, and always will.  And get ready to live on this planet with 2 billion more of your fellow energy consuming humans.  Until you or mankind comes up with another solution these additional 2 billion people will burn fuel adding to more greenhouse gasses.  All humans are addicted to the burning of hydrocarbons.

So what’s the solution?  Not what you have suggested. Gas, oil, coal, wind, geothermal wave, solar, hydro, chemical - Nope none of these will supply enough energy within causing additional problems forhuman life on earth.  Just leaves one.... Nuclear.  It’s clean, It’s green, and renewable and far more energy dense than fossil fuels.

The countries of the world and billionaires who are soon to die in the next 20 years are spending money on next-generation of nuclear energy.  I’m not a fan of nuclear.  Waitin 60 miles of my house are two nuclear contaminated waste sites.

I will ask again, got a bettter solution than what you’ve suggested so far or next-gen nuclear?  I hope so.  But the laws of physics are against you.



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Online tszaboo

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Re: Reliable sources of clean energy and human nature.
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2018, 05:41:41 pm »
No disrespect intended, but really, this is you answer? 
Have you done any calculations, (Henry Ford did), to see how much energy insulating and then insulating again would save?
And did you do the calculation? Here is one for you:
Solar power on small scale has an energy payback time of just 2-3 years (all energy made, that is used for manufacturing) and has a financial payback time of 6-7 years. Without subsidies.

A modern nuclear plant has no payback time, as it is way too expensive. They start building it, and it will not pay for itself over its entire lifetime. And usually the plant costs go above the estimates by billions. And the decomissioning cost is usually "let's just ignore this for now" in the business plan.

Here is a recent project for you:
"EDF has previously said France's first EPR would cost €3.3 billion[2] and start commercial operations in 2012, after construction lasting 54 months.[3]

On 3 December 2012 EDF announced that the estimated costs have escalated to €8.5 billion ($11 billion), and the completion of construction is delayed to 2016.[4] The next day the Italian power company Enel announced it was relinquishing its 12.5% stake in the project, and 5 future EPRs, so would be reimbursed its project stake of €613 million plus interest.[5][6]

In November 2014 EDF announced that completion of construction was delayed to 2017 due to delays in component delivery by Areva.[7]

...
The EPR (Flamanville 3) aimed to be safer than any previous reactor, but as of 2016 the project is three times over budget and years behind schedule. In September 2015 EDF announced that the estimated costs had escalated to €10.5 billion, and the start-up of the reactor was delayed to the fourth quarter of 2018.[17]"

Great plan. Here, I give you the key to the planet, save us.
 


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