Author Topic: Supercapacitor energy storage and energy server from KiloWatt Labs  (Read 10893 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Elasia

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 157
  • Country: us
Re: Supercapacitor energy storage and energy server from KiloWatt Labs
« Reply #50 on: March 13, 2018, 04:03:08 pm »
you do know that lithium air batteries are far more energy dense than your example hypothetical and actually exist right?   :palm:

The same reason supercaps are nowhere nearly as dense is the same reason im more in favor of arc welding and off gassing vs some huge explosion.  Short of a nano scale revolution in material science i think this is a dead horse
 

Offline IanMacdonald

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 754
  • Country: gb
    • IWR Consultancy
Re: Supercapacitor energy storage and energy server from KiloWatt Labs
« Reply #51 on: March 13, 2018, 05:39:12 pm »
In any case,  the problem with the EV application is not dependent on the type of storage device. It's a simple question of arithmetic that the number of kWh needed for a sensible range cannot be put through a cable of a sensible gauge for plug connection, at a sensible voltage in a sensible time. 

Fuel cells with liquid fuel are a more promising line of research.
 

Offline Marco

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3606
  • Country: nl
Re: Supercapacitor energy storage and energy server from KiloWatt Labs
« Reply #52 on: March 14, 2018, 03:23:06 am »
In any case,  the problem with the EV application is not dependent on the type of storage device. It's a simple question of arithmetic that the number of kWh needed for a sensible range cannot be put through a cable of a sensible gauge for plug connection

There are alternatives to plugs. You could have a very high surface area connector on the bottom of the car with a retractable cover which a robotic charging station connects to. You could remove the pack and charge it inside the charging station (where the safety issues of using very high voltages stops being an issue).

If ultracaps with these specs are developed in the future you also partly solve the problem of the charge station's grid connection, since it can trickle charge its own supercaps to charge the car at a MW rate.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 641
  • Country: fr
Re: Supercapacitor energy storage and energy server from KiloWatt Labs
« Reply #53 on: March 14, 2018, 06:29:16 am »
you do know that lithium air batteries are far more energy dense than your example hypothetical and actually exist right?   :palm:

The same reason supercaps are nowhere nearly as dense is the same reason im more in favor of arc welding and off gassing vs some huge explosion.  Short of a nano scale revolution in material science i think this is a dead horse

Couldn't have said it better.
 

Offline amspire

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3633
  • Country: au
Re: Supercapacitor energy storage and energy server from KiloWatt Labs
« Reply #54 on: March 14, 2018, 11:05:56 am »
you do know that lithium air batteries are far more energy dense than your example hypothetical and actually exist right?   :palm:

The same reason supercaps are nowhere nearly as dense is the same reason im more in favor of arc welding and off gassing vs some huge explosion.  Short of a nano scale revolution in material science i think this is a dead horse
Not sure what you are referring to. Lithium air are safe as they don't have the reagents at all in the one package. The major reagent by mass (oxygen) is not present in the battery at all. They are in the same class as petrol and are manageable in terms of safety. They would be a huge improvement over current lithium batteries , but there are many challenges. Their porous construction means that even though they have a great energy to mass ratio, the energy to volume is not that great. It may be possible to produce a car battery that has twice the range of lithium ion batteries - if they can overcome all the other problems - efficiency, life, cathode contamination from the air and so on. Probably need complex air filtration so we are not talking about batteries in a simple metal tube.

As far as I know, the technology is not here yet and may not be for decades. Some proponents are saying it has more future for mains grid energy storage then for cars.

The supercaps being researched have the potential of far more volumetric energy density then any current technology. That is why the research is continuing. It doesn't necessarily need nanoscale technology as there are two paths you can go down - extreme capacitance at low voltages and sub-micron dielectrics or extreme voltages with thicker dielectrics.  10 years ago, EESTOR was all set to release 3.5kV 50F ceramic composite capacitors for cars - that is 85kWh. Relative permittivities of up to around 30,000! They had accepted contracts from car companies. They hit a snag when they found the capacitor self-discharge was really bad and by about 60 degC was disastrous. I think after a  a decade of development, they have currently got up to a few days storage and are now pushing the technology for mains grid load balancing rather then cars and long term power storage.
 

Offline DerekG

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 822
  • Country: nf
Re: Supercapacitor energy storage and energy server from KiloWatt Labs
« Reply #55 on: March 24, 2018, 05:53:34 pm »
Kilowatt Labs Supercapacitor patent has now been published:

http://www.freshpatents.com/-dt20180315ptan20180076644.php
I also sat between Elvis & Bigfoot on the UFO.
 

Offline DerekG

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 822
  • Country: nf
Re: Supercapacitor energy storage and energy server from KiloWatt Labs
« Reply #56 on: March 24, 2018, 06:06:06 pm »
Kilowatt Labs Supercapacitor patent has now been published:

http://www.freshpatents.com/-dt20180315ptan20180076644.php
I also sat between Elvis & Bigfoot on the UFO.
 

Offline DerekG

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 822
  • Country: nf
Re: Supercapacitor energy storage and energy server from KiloWatt Labs
« Reply #57 on: March 24, 2018, 10:48:53 pm »
Hey Dave,

The guys from Arvio Pty Ltd will be at the Smart Energy Conference (& Exhibition) in Sydney on April 10th & 11th.

Perhaps you can go & check out the Kilowatt Labs 3.55KWH Supercap? Admission is free.

http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5486&start=50#p66977

Arvio are also throwing open their doors at their offices in Melbourne to members of the Australian Electric Vehicles Association to examine the insides of the Kilowatt Labs Supercap.

http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5486&sid=f5388ebd3525a06f7ced5f081b353c7f&start=75#p67014

I'm sure you can convince them to show you the insides too. Fancy a tax deductible trip to Melbourne?
I also sat between Elvis & Bigfoot on the UFO.
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 26651
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: Supercapacitor energy storage and energy server from KiloWatt Labs
« Reply #58 on: March 25, 2018, 09:37:54 am »
Why does a "supercapacitor" contain batteries?
I'm starting to smell some :bullshit: to keep alive their patent for a supercapacitor that didn't work as intended, so hey, lets add some batteries  ::)

http://images2.freshpatents.com/imageviewer/20180076644-p20180076644




 
The following users thanked this post: Elasia

Offline Elasia

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 157
  • Country: us
Re: Supercapacitor energy storage and energy server from KiloWatt Labs
« Reply #59 on: March 25, 2018, 09:54:42 am »
Why does a "supercapacitor" contain batteries?
I'm starting to smell some :bullshit: to keep alive their patent for a supercapacitor that didn't work as intended, so hey, lets add some batteries  ::)


I still stand by my original thinking on them... if they have grant funding then they already got what they wanted and just bilking tax payers for bullshit  :bullshit:  :wtf:  :rant:  :bullshit:

---

More likely someones fodder project that has been ear marked with grants and it working or not isn't really the point.
 

Offline station240

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 710
  • Country: au
Re: Supercapacitor energy storage and energy server from KiloWatt Labs
« Reply #60 on: March 26, 2018, 05:16:43 am »
What the hell, a super cap in parallel with Li-Ion cell, with attached electronics. Build an array of all this for the completed storage system.
The charge electronics consist of a H bridge driven transformer, rectifier etc, then for the discharge circuit, the same thing again.
This thing is going to cost a fortune in electronics.
 

Offline Marco

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3606
  • Country: nl
Re: Supercapacitor energy storage and energy server from KiloWatt Labs
« Reply #61 on: March 26, 2018, 05:28:01 am »
I'm sure you can convince them to show you the insides too. Fancy a tax deductible trip to Melbourne?
Waste of time to see the inside of a Maxwell supercapacitor bank ...
 

Offline Twoflower

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 375
  • Country: de
Re: Supercapacitor energy storage and energy server from KiloWatt Labs
« Reply #62 on: March 26, 2018, 05:53:46 am »
Disclaimer: I haven't followed the thread. But I noticed Daves comment.

The combination could make sense like it make sense to use a MLCC parallel to a electrolytic cap. If your application can generate bursts of energy (e.g. recuperation from braking) which might be faster than you can charge your battery cells. You need some short time storage. Also the other way around that super cap could lower the high current burden on the battery cells if the demand can covered by the caps. A kind of temporarily reduction of the battery resistance.

This is far from a common use case. And if the battery array is just big enough you can get a reasonably high charge and discharge current.

But the idea is old. I think it came from the time before the LiIon was widely available. Other battery types are much slower for charging or discharging. With the result you can't re-use braking energy very well.
 

Offline DerekG

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 822
  • Country: nf
Re: Supercapacitor energy storage and energy server from KiloWatt Labs
« Reply #63 on: March 26, 2018, 08:22:10 am »
But the idea is old.

Yes. Time will tell whether the patent stands on its own, or if it is knocked down by prior knowledge.

A full copy of the patent (without having to register) can be found here:

http://images2.freshpatents.com/imageviewer/20180076644-p20180076644

ADDED: The patent refers to a capacitor balancing circuit.

Many varieties of these already exist. Here is one for starters:

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/T11-6-String-2-7V-100-500F-Super-Capacitor-Balancing-Balance-Protection-Board/322888454631?epid=9009772011&hash=item4b2da6d1e7:g:2VcAAOSwVNxaDqGb
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 08:25:54 am by DerekG »
I also sat between Elvis & Bigfoot on the UFO.
 

Offline DerekG

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 822
  • Country: nf
Re: Supercapacitor energy storage and energy server from KiloWatt Labs
« Reply #64 on: March 27, 2018, 11:45:06 am »
The guys over at the Australian Electric Vehicles Association have some new pictures & believe they have figured it out.

It would also explain why the voltage rose again after the load was disconnected.

http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5486&start=100#p67082
I also sat between Elvis & Bigfoot on the UFO.
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 26651
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: Supercapacitor energy storage and energy server from KiloWatt Labs
« Reply #65 on: March 27, 2018, 11:54:50 am »
The guys over at the Australian Electric Vehicles Association have some new pictures & believe they have figured it out.
It would also explain why the voltage rose again after the load was disconnected.
http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5486&start=100#p67082

I don't understand they they were able to take a photo on the capacitor array with no markings and infer that it's that exact Lithium battery? Just by looking at the blue cylindrical case?
Have I missed the other evidence?
« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 12:39:59 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline DerekG

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 822
  • Country: nf
Re: Supercapacitor energy storage and energy server from KiloWatt Labs
« Reply #66 on: March 27, 2018, 12:12:41 pm »
Dave, I think that the "supercapacitor claims" are not just as they first appear (like you suspected in your post above).

A load was applied to the "Kilowatt Labs supercapacitor module" until it was "flat" (the volt meter read 0 volts). When the load was then disconnected, the output voltage rose again to approx 40V. We both know this would not be possible if the module only contained capacitors & contained no DC-DC inverters (which Arvio claim is the case).

Maybe the Kilowatt Labs module contains a few supercaps so they are not done for false advertising .................. but it actually mainly contains Li batteries.

No doubt more will play out over the next few days/weeks.
I also sat between Elvis & Bigfoot on the UFO.
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 26651
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: Supercapacitor energy storage and energy server from KiloWatt Labs
« Reply #67 on: March 27, 2018, 12:41:20 pm »
Dave, I think that the "supercapacitor claims" are not just as they first appear (like you suspected in your post above).

A load was applied to the "Kilowatt Labs supercapacitor module" until it was "flat" (the volt meter read 0 volts). When the load was then disconnected, the output voltage rose again to approx 40V. We both know this would not be possible if the module only contained capacitors & contained no DC-DC inverters (which Arvio claim is the case).

Why not?
Dielectric absorption could cause that.
Just playing devils advocate here.
 

Offline DerekG

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 822
  • Country: nf
Re: Supercapacitor energy storage and energy server from KiloWatt Labs
« Reply #68 on: March 27, 2018, 01:03:57 pm »
Why not?
Dielectric absorption could cause that.
Just playing devils advocate here.

I know Dave. All good.

Kilowatt Labs is claiming their "supercap array" is 54V fully charged & 44V when flat. This fits the Lithium Titanate model if approx 1150 batteries were used. Arvio claim there are 1200 "supercaps" in the 3.55KWH Kilowatt Labs module ...... which works out to be only 50 "caps" more (4.3%) than when using the Lithium Titanate cells.

On this basis, they are claiming that each supercap holds almost as much energy as each Lithium Titanate cell.

I suspect that the Australian distributor "Arvio" does not know exactly what is going on. This is why "Supercaps" (the Arvio representative in Melbourne on the Australian Electric Vehicle Association's forum) puts out his cryptic clues, bit by bit).

I'm beginning to agree with you. When Arvio decide to find out the truth & cut one of the "supercaps" apart, they may well find a lithium battery instead.
I also sat between Elvis & Bigfoot on the UFO.
 

Offline digsys

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 1710
  • Country: au
    • DIGSYS
Re: Supercapacitor energy storage and energy server from KiloWatt Labs
« Reply #69 on: March 27, 2018, 02:56:33 pm »
Our AEVA boys are pretty thorough with these types of claims, we get them a lot. ARVIO are doing a presentation here, tomorrow. I'll see if any
of the boys can make it - I have an ATA meeting at the same time, so sadly, I can't make it.
https://www.eventbrite.com.au/e/home-battery-storage-revolution-registration-41801353975?aff=efbevent
We've had a few claims of supercap breakthroughs this year already, plus other types eg Sodium nickel chloride. When you scratch the surface,
however, the paint comes off :-)  One day .. but not yet
Hello <tap> <tap> .. is this thing on?
 

Offline Marco

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3606
  • Country: nl
Re: Supercapacitor energy storage and energy server from KiloWatt Labs
« Reply #70 on: March 27, 2018, 06:18:58 pm »
Dielectric absorption could cause that.
Just playing devils advocate here.
Not at that magnitude, that would mean you lose over half your power on fast discharge and have to let it slowly recover before you can regain it.
 

Offline DerekG

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 822
  • Country: nf
Re: Supercapacitor energy storage and energy server from KiloWatt Labs
« Reply #71 on: March 28, 2018, 12:34:41 am »
According to this poster on the Whirlpool forum, it is likely that the "supercapacitors" are made by Microtron Technologies Inc as "Waseem Ashraf Qureshi is the co-founder of Microtron and CTO and co-founder of Kilowatt Labs."

https://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=2707005&p=7#r128
I also sat between Elvis & Bigfoot on the UFO.
 

Offline Dave Keenan

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 3
  • Country: au
Re: Supercapacitor energy storage and energy server from KiloWatt Labs
« Reply #72 on: March 29, 2018, 12:43:21 pm »
I don't understand they they were able to take a photo on the capacitor array with no markings and infer that it's that exact Lithium battery? Just by looking at the blue cylindrical case?
Have I missed the other evidence?
Good questions. I didn't really spell it all out in one place before.

The main reasons I am fairly confident they are LTOs are:
1. I have read extensively about the current state of the art in supercapacitors, and we're nowhere-near this energy density, even in the lab, let alone mass production. And the chance that some lone genius could leapfrog everyone else by about 10 years is negligible.
2. LTO cells are commercially available that look exactly like the "capacitors" in the Kilowatt Labs unit and they have exactly* the required voltage, internal resistance, energy capacity, weight, dimensions, linear region of voltage vs charge curve, and (as we've seen most recently) flammable electrolyte. * Within 5%. [Edit: And low enough cost]

4 days ago I challenged Arvio to release a 1C voltage versus charge curve for a single cell, that goes outside of the linear region for LTOs. We're still waiting.

At this stage, I'm assuming good faith on their part.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 01:39:42 pm by Dave Keenan »
 

Offline DerekG

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 822
  • Country: nf
Re: Supercapacitor energy storage and energy server from KiloWatt Labs
« Reply #73 on: March 29, 2018, 02:24:02 pm »
We're still waiting.

If Arvio want to sell lots of these things & want to dispel the belief that the Kilowatt Labs unit is not full of batteries, then what they need to do is to send off a complete unit for independent testing.

Arvio probably should do this for themselves as it may well be that they are the ones being duped by the mob in the USA/UAE.

Melbourne University is not far from the Arvio office in Melbourne. Arrange for the electrical engineering lab there to take it apart for close examination.

I would say that if Arvio fail to do this within the next week or 10 days, then the Kilowatt Labs units would appear to be full of fake supercaps.

I'm not a member of the AEVA, but if you guys are reading this, put it to Arvio that some independent testing is the only way they will clear their name.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 02:27:38 pm by DerekG »
I also sat between Elvis & Bigfoot on the UFO.
 

Offline DerekG

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 822
  • Country: nf
Re: Supercapacitor energy storage and energy server from KiloWatt Labs
« Reply #74 on: March 31, 2018, 12:28:25 am »
I have tonight lodged a complaint with the ACCC requesting that Arvio Pty Ltd supply them independent testing results from a certified NATA Laboratory before being allowed to continue their advertising/marketing of the Kilowatt Labs Inc. "Supercapacitor Module".

As an electronic engineer, having read the Kilowatts patent, I come to the conclusion that it says very little on how a 100 to 1000 x improvement in capacitor storage has been achieved by them.

If this is a scam, it is important that the consumer is protected.
I also sat between Elvis & Bigfoot on the UFO.
 
The following users thanked this post: digsys


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf