Author Topic: Rawlemon’s Spherical Solar Energy Generation From Moonlight  (Read 17154 times)

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Offline fsr

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Re: Rawlemon’s Spherical Solar Energy Generation From Moonlight
« Reply #50 on: January 06, 2019, 03:58:13 pm »
That's one needlessly big, heavy and expensive loupe... What's the advantage? That the sphere doesn't needs to track the sun, and the loupe does? The PV cells do need to track the sun, however.

About the difference in brightness of the sun and moon, that's data that astronomers have since a very long time, an this wikipedia article even calculates it:

What is the ratio in brightness between the Sun and the full Moon?

The apparent magnitude of the Sun is −26.74 (brighter), and the mean apparent magnitude of the full moon is −12.74 (dimmer).

[calculations removed, because they don't display good here, look at the wikipedia article]

The Sun appears about 400000 times brighter than the full moon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apparent_magnitude#Example:_Sun_and_Moon

That probably means that at most, with a full moon, you can get 1/400000 of the energy than with the sun.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 04:18:58 pm by fsr »
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Rawlemon’s Spherical Solar Energy Generation From Moonlight
« Reply #51 on: January 14, 2019, 01:03:23 pm »
Photons have no temperature

Quote
All radiation is photons and so it has no temperature.

I rather think photons do have a temperature characteristic. That is how astronomers can measure the temperature of the cosmic microwave background radiation and compare it with predictions from the big bang.

The important distinction that you mention in your post is the difference between an active system and a passive system. With an active system you can put work into it and can achieve any temperature you wish. A passive system with no external inputs cannot concentrate the photons from the moon to achieve any temperature greater than the surface of the moon. If it were possible it would violate the second law, no matter which way you look at it.

You could say a lens is passive but it definitely allows a colder body to heat a hotter body.  As long as you look at the total entropy in a closed system, the 2nd Law is correct. If you get hung up on the colder body-hotter body thing, you can get yourself into trouble.
No it does not.

Heat will always travel from a hotter body to cooler body. If you have two objects, one huge and one much smaller, with a lens between them and no external source of energy, they will reach the same temperature eventually. Once both objects are the same temperature, they will sit there for all eternity.
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Rawlemon’s Spherical Solar Energy Generation From Moonlight
« Reply #52 on: January 14, 2019, 04:48:16 pm »
It's non-obvious why this is; it has to do with another property of light -- which happens to be thermodynamically relevant -- conservation of étendue.

https://what-if.xkcd.com/145/

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Offline IanMacdonald

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Re: Rawlemon’s Spherical Solar Energy Generation From Moonlight
« Reply #53 on: January 17, 2019, 08:58:47 am »
Heat will always travel from a hotter body to cooler body. If you have two objects, one huge and one much smaller, with a lens between them and no external source of energy, they will reach the same temperature eventually. Once both objects are the same temperature, they will sit there for all eternity.

Only strictly true for conduction. Radiated heat is exactly the same thing as radio signals and light, except different wavelength. Think about it a minute; if it were true, your radio in a warm room would get nothing from a cold outdoor transmitting aerial.  :-//

The reality is that all bodies with non-zero absolute temp exchange radiant energy. Consider a universe in which there is just one star, at say 6000K surface temp. This will radiate EM radiation in all directions, and since there are no other bodies in the vicinity it will be simple case of all that energy being lost.   

Now consider that the star has just one planet, surface temp 300K. The planet has no internal heat source, all heating is passive, from the star. Obviously the planet absorbs thermal radiation, however the interesting point is that it also radiates infrared back in all directions. Most of that is lost to the vastness of empty space, but a small amount impinges on the star. The fact that the star's surface is hotter does NOT alter the fact that the radiation from the planet warms the planet-facing surface of the star, albeit just a little.

"You can't use lenses and mirrors to make something hotter than the surface of the light source itself."    :bullshit:
From the above you should be able to see that this is complete BS. For a real world example, a semiconductor laser can burn a hole in steel. The melting point of gallium arsenide (or whatever chip material) is a lot less than that of steel. The steel melts. The chip doesn't.

HTH in understanding a subject which is counterintuitive in some respects.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 09:14:56 am by IanMacdonald »
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Rawlemon’s Spherical Solar Energy Generation From Moonlight
« Reply #54 on: January 17, 2019, 11:47:43 am »
Quote
"But wait," you might say. "The Moon's light isn't like the Sun's! The Sun is a blackbody—its light output is related to its high temperature. The Moon shines with reflected sunlight, which has a "temperature" of thousands of degrees—that argument doesn't work!"

Quote
If you're surrounded by the bright surface of the Moon, what temperature will you reach? Well, rocks on the Moon's surface are nearly surrounded by the surface of the Moon, and they reach the temperature of the surface of the Moon (since they are the surface of the Moon.) So a lens system focusing moonlight can't really make something hotter than a well-placed rock sitting on the Moon's surface.

"So yeah, I'm going to pretend the moon is a black body any way"

He never addressed the fact that most of the moonlight is reflection. You're not imaging the moon, you're imaging the sun, reflected by an imperfect mirror.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 11:51:36 am by Marco »
 

Offline IanMacdonald

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Re: Rawlemon’s Spherical Solar Energy Generation From Moonlight
« Reply #55 on: January 17, 2019, 04:17:57 pm »
-What is a black body? Well, an ideal black body is one which has 100% absorbtion, zero reflection, and zero transparency to a particular EM radiation wavelength. By Kirchhoff's Law of Thermodynamics (Which essentially says there are no thermal diodes) such a body will also be a perfect emitter of the same wavelength of radiative heat. 

Note that this is 'to a particular wavelength' and an object which behaves as a black body to one wavelength need not necessarily do so for others.

Real substances are bound to fall short of this ideal, having some reflectance, and/or transparency. It also follows from Kirchhoff's Law that an object with high reflectance (albedo) or transparency will also be a poor emitter of radiation.

The Moon's surface is only about a quarter as reflective as the Earth's, which partially explains why the sunward side gets so hot and the dark side so cold. The radiation we receive from it though, is mostly reflected, the Sun's rays predominating over black body radiation.
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: Rawlemon’s Spherical Solar Energy Generation From Moonlight
« Reply #56 on: January 17, 2019, 06:37:04 pm »
"You can't use lenses and mirrors to make something hotter than the surface of the light source itself."    :bullshit:
From the above you should be able to see that this is complete BS. For a real world example, a semiconductor laser can burn a hole in steel. The melting point of gallium arsenide (or whatever chip material) is a lot less than that of steel. The steel melts. The chip doesn't.

You're very nearly correct in your understanding of this subject, but it is imperfect --

The radio example works because the radio's front end has an effective temperature below that of the signals it's intended to receive.  Which depends on what frequency band it's designed for, because background noise varies, but let's say VHF or UHF where we can ignore atmospheric noise and consider the background being faint (except for the Sun) astronomic noise sources.

The radio consumes power, and consequently is able to produce nonreciprocal elements.  One consequence of this is, the effective noise temperature of the front end can be much smaller than the ambient temperature of the instrument as a whole.  Indeed, adequate to resolve those distant astronomic noise sources, for some radios (although it's noteworthy that some of those radios are, in fact, cryogenically cooled, for even better performance; I don't know when that's required as far as effective noise temp).


It's noteworthy that all the elements up to the radio front end (transmission medium, antenna, transmission lines) are (usually / preferably) low loss.  That is, they do not contribute much of their own temperature to the noise level received.  The optical equivalent of this is simply a mirror: a metal mirror can be quite hot, incandescent even, but it is still shiny.  Its emission only dominates over the reflected signal when the reflected signal is below the emissivity of the mirror.

Or for transmissive media, same thing, the bulk glow doesn't necessarily dominate.  Hot glass looks really freaking cool: it does glow, but not much, because its emissivity in visible light is very low; meanwhile, it remains clear and colorless, so you can see through it, but also see its own glow through it.

So too, the antenna needs to be low loss, so that it faithfully couples between free field and transmission line, without adding its own noise to the system.  In effect, the antenna is a lens, and the transmission line is a fiber optic, shiny and reflective and clear, without adding its own noise to the system.  (Of course, a sufficiently bad, and long, cable will have appreciable losses, and introduce its noise and temperature to the system.  Such is the case with any medium.)


Conversely, the laser is a special, active device.  I'm not too certain of the V-I vs. illumination characteristics of a solid state laser, but at the very least, as a PN junction, it must act like a solar cell.  Which responds to incoherent, wideband radiation, not just sharply tuned laser light.  So already we can see there is some nonreciprocity here.  (Well, anything inside a resonator will respond mainly to signals passed by that resonator -- but the point is, the response will still be wider than the laser emission line(s) are.)

The laser emission is extremely intense (not just narrowband and coherent, but very parallel as well), and this occurs due to a feedback process.  The equivalent temperature is very high indeed: to have such high emission at a narrow band, you'd need an incredibly hot source (like, Sun's core hot), sent through an incredibly narrow bandpass filter.

Why does it melt metal, but not itself?  Well, reciprocity is one thing; lasers can indeed be damaged by very reflective targets (poorly matched loads -- so too can radio transmitters!).  As long as most of that energy is leaving, it's fine.

You might just as well ask why an induction heater can melt metal, when its energy is very low (fractional MHz, so, whatever that is, photons of nanoelectronvolts?).  Clearly its effective temperature must be incredible (and the bandpass on that noise, equally strong), and to get visible light emission somehow or another implies one heck of a multi-photon mixing/upconversion process.  Well, something like that.  Physics gonna physic.  Suffice it to say, a quantum description of a macroscopic, classical system is a rather impractical approach, and since it happens, we can conclude that yes, somehow or another, such a mechanism exists.



So, suffice it to say: classical physics is adequate here, and active devices not in thermodynamic equilibrium, need not obey the laws of thermodynamics on a local basis? :)

Tim
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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Rawlemon’s Spherical Solar Energy Generation From Moonlight
« Reply #57 on: January 17, 2019, 06:40:17 pm »
Heat will always travel from a hotter body to cooler body. If you have two objects, one huge and one much smaller, with a lens between them and no external source of energy, they will reach the same temperature eventually. Once both objects are the same temperature, they will sit there for all eternity.

Now consider that the star has just one planet, surface temp 300K. The planet has no internal heat source, all heating is passive, from the star. Obviously the planet absorbs thermal radiation, however the interesting point is that it also radiates infrared back in all directions. Most of that is lost to the vastness of empty space, but a small amount impinges on the star. The fact that the star's surface is hotter does NOT alter the fact that the radiation from the planet warms the planet-facing surface of the star, albeit just a little.


Semantics and details are why this conversation and subject are always difficult.  The radiation from the planet does not warm the suns surface, it just slightly reduces the cooling.  The net flow of heat will always be from the warmer body to the cooler body for thermal radiation.

The laser welder example is not a case of thermal radiation.  To solve the thermodynamics you have to consider the whole system.  You can locally violate entropy in all sorts of ways.  Every time you type an email, solve a jigsaw puzzle you are violating decay of local entropy.  But in every case we have discovered to date, and as far as we understand the universe there are no non local exceptions.
 

Offline TerraHertz

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Re: Rawlemon’s Spherical Solar Energy Generation From Moonlight
« Reply #58 on: January 25, 2019, 09:29:05 am »
https://what-if.xkcd.com/145/

Total nonsense! Is this a new tactic - fighting bad science with even worse science?

The site is right in saying that lenses and mirrors are bi-directional and so that an equilibrium is reached, but it mixed up power and temperature.

Exactly.
I lost most of my respect for XKCD when he presented a cartoon-ized version of the AGW 'hockey stick graph' as fact. Thus demonstrating that he's quite gullible and doesn't look into things beyond a superficial level.
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