Author Topic: Tesla and other electric cars drives parts of Norways electric net to its knees  (Read 4513 times)

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Online kaz911

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Latest from Norway - electric companies having issues due to too many Tesala's with high power chargers. There are a lot of Tesla's in norway....

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tu.no%2Fartikler%2Fnettet-overbelastes-lamper-blinker-og-sikringer-ryker-elbilen-pekes-ut-som-syndebukk%2F408789%3Futm_source%3Dtu.no%26utm_medium%3Dfeed%26utm_campaign%3Dfeed_most_read&edit-text=&act=url

Ohh well that was bound to happen. I think London is next for Tesla flicker. :) Uptake here seems to grow fast.
 

Offline tautech

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Yeah like who didn't think this would happen ?  ::)

Time to restart some coal fired power stations ?  >:D
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Offline stmdude

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Time to restart some coal fired power stations ?  >:D

Wouldn't help one bit, as it's the distribution net that is overloaded. The energy companies simply didn't plan for this amount of power being consumed way out at an endpoint (aka, house).

What I find really interesting is that they're running into this issue with "only" 4% of the cars in Norway being electric.
 
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Offline NANDBlog

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Time to restart some coal fired power stations ?  >:D

Wouldn't help one bit, as it's the distribution net that is overloaded. The energy companies simply didn't plan for this amount of power being consumed way out at an endpoint (aka, house).

What I find really interesting is that they're running into this issue with "only" 4% of the cars in Norway being electric.
I think the electric companies dont plan for anything ever. They are acting like the firefighters.
I'm fighting a different issue at work. Too many solar installations cause the voltage to increase, at some point the inverters have to switch off to avoid overvoltage. This decreases the voltage for others, who can switch on, and they start bouncing on-off until the situation changes. Some people loose 50-100 EUR a year because of this, sometimes even without knowing about it.
Of course instead of replacing the cables with just thicker cables, they want software solution. Great planning. They cannot predict simple things, like: In 5 years we will switch off this powerplant. It takes 5 years to build a new one. When do you need to start building a new power plant:
A) When the lobbyist gives me money
B) After the catastrophic failures start happening
C) Right now? No that cant be right.

There is a strategic system for a country, the power grid. If the grid goes down, GDP goes negative. So it makes total sense, to sell these systems to private operators driven by profit. For example, the USA loses 33 Billion USD every year because power outage. I wonder, if you would spend that money on the power grid, make it redundant and resilient, move it underground where needed, if that would pay back. In a year.

I went to Croatia for a vacation this year, to an island (with a bridge to mainland EU).  3 out of 10 evenings, the power went down for 30+ minutes. Are you kidding me? What is this, early 19 century?
 
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Offline stmdude

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I wonder, if you would spend that money on the power grid, make it redundant and resilient, move it underground where needed, if that would pay back. In a year.

They just did this is Sweden a few years ago, as we had some storms that tore the grid to shreds (I was without power for 5 days. That was fun). Well, at least the "move it underground" part.

Thing is. I doubt they planned for the increase in demand, so if we end up having the same issue as Norway (highly likely), they'd have to dig everything up again to put down bigger cables.  ( I live in a rural area, so putting cables underground is as elegant as digging a ditch, toss in the cable and cover it with dirt )
 

Online kaz911

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Here in the UK i do have a 100A/230v single phase supply. That would power a Tesla big charger - but I think if more than 5% of properties here had Tesla's - we would get brownouts.

On my road we are at 2 1/2% Tesla's.... 2 more Tesla's and I think we will have trouble :) at peak hours.

Tesla's are very much "In" in London as you do not have to pay congestion charge to drive in central London. With prepay Congestion Charge cost GBP 10/day (US$13) - so 200 working days a year - GBP 2000/US$2600 to drive in central London.
 

Offline CJay

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I went to Croatia for a vacation this year, to an island (with a bridge to mainland EU).  3 out of 10 evenings, the power went down for 30+ minutes. Are you kidding me? What is this, early 19 century?

There are bits of Britain like that, 3KM from my home I can visit a friend who has a gas lantern hanging from his ceiling because the electricity supply is carried by overhead cables, they 'trip' the pole fuses when it's windy, he's 200M from an area where houses are owned by Premier League footballers and regularly sell for several million pounds so it's not an undeveloped part of the country.
2E0EOA
 

Offline IanMacdonald

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Elsewhere I've analysed the mass electric car charging scenario, and shown that each one is equivalent to about three UK homes.

The Greens want us to all go electric, AND they want to charge them from wind turbines, which only supply about a fifth of the present demand.

Then, they want to make the batteries double as a reserve for the Grid.

Somebody, please loan them a nixie-tube calculator.  |O
 
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Online Kleinstein

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The fast chargers are a problem to the distribution net. They just need a lot of power compared to normal households and there is a good chance that some neighborhoods are ahead in going electric. So the only 4% number of cars converted is misleading. Some sub-stations will likely already see more than 20% maybe even more than 50% electric cars.

With so much power needed they will have to make the chargers / grids smarter: slow down or delay charging if there is no enough power available locally and charge an extra price if the uses insist on fast charging. If done smart, the chargers might even stabilize the grid. If done the stupid way they can break it, even in a grid with otherwise very good conditions.

Norway would not need new coal power stations - if at all more hydroelectric and maybe wind. But the current problem seems to be a local grid problem. So more like additional / larger transformers and a few more lines.
 

Offline Neganur

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IIRC, in Norway electric cars were heavily subsidized in order to promote sales. I can't help but think that they maybe got caught by surprise that they sold so many more than they had planned to do.
 

Offline IanB

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I think the electric car charging problem is pretty predictable. I was commenting about it 15 years ago, about why everyone having an electric car is not viable, just purely considering the power demand for charging them.

It's very clear. If a car charger is going to draw 10 or 20 kW continuously for several hours overnight, and every house is going to have one of these chargers installed (or more than one charger for multi-car families), then the distribution network absolutely cannot handle that demand. The existing network is sized for much lower average power demands than that, probably 10% of that.

Consider that in hot parts of the USA the power grid is already stressed during the day by people running air conditioners, and they use far less power than car chargers.
I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 

Online wraper

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I think the electric car charging problem is pretty predictable. I was commenting about it 15 years ago, about why everyone having an electric car is not viable, just purely considering the power demand for charging them.

It's very clear. If a car charger is going to draw 10 or 20 kW continuously for several hours overnight, and every house is going to have one of these chargers installed (or more than one charger for multi-car families), then the distribution network absolutely cannot handle that demand. The existing network is sized for much lower average power demands than that, probably 10% of that.

Consider that in hot parts of the USA the power grid is already stressed during the day by people running air conditioners, and they use far less power than car chargers.
Not viable if power production and distribution network remains the same. I don't see why it cannot be viable given there is a time for them to be upgraded. It is still more efficient to burn fossil fuel at power station and charge electric car than to burn fossil fuel in ICE located directly in the car. IMO the most efficient way would be to charge batteries directly at power plant and swap them at filling station.
 

Offline IanB

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Not viable if power production and distribution network remains the same. I don't see why it cannot be viable given there is a time for them to be upgraded.

This part is true, but the necessary upgrades will be expensive, which will cause electricity prices to increase.
I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 

Offline RGB255_0_0

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Localised batteries may help in the short term. Longer term is going to be a major headache for national network infrastructure.
Your toaster just set fire to an African child over TCP.
 

Offline Marco

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Thing is. I doubt they planned for the increase in demand, so if we end up having the same issue as Norway (highly likely), they'd have to dig everything up again to put down bigger cables.

Ignoring legacy, I wonder if it wouldn't be cheaper to simply have PVC pipe big enough to walk through below each public street to install everything in. I wouldn't be surprised if you could pay for it simply to save digging up a street one extra time for not having it.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 04:56:39 AM by Marco »
 

Offline tautech

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Localised batteries may help in the short term. Longer term is going to be a major headache for national network infrastructure.
Big time headache !

A while back while having a chat with my Dr. EE buddy, he told me how his Tech institute had asked a power network design engineer to address the EE students.
Specifically the design spec for urban subdivision was discussed and the knowing of them were shocked to learn that a 6KW average/household was all that was allowed for.  :scared:

Little wonder that the population is encouraged into denser/closer living arrangements of flats and apartments where it's not practical to own or find parking for a private vehicle.
Instead the local authorities and corporates will have fleets of E vehicles for hire by swipe card, all in little ranks waiting for customers and able to be reserved for an inflated price.  ::)
Just hope there's one available when you want one.
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Online glarsson

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Ignoring legacy, I wonder if it wouldn't be cheaper to simply have PVC pipe big enough to walk through below each public street to install everything in. I wouldn't be surprised if you could pay for it simply to save digging up a street one extra time for not having it.
A brand new subdivision i  my town is built with a culvert system. A culvert (2.5 m diameter) is used for electricity, fiber, water, central heating, domestic trash suction system and sewage is used for the whole subdivision. The plan is for this system to last for more than 100 years.
 

Offline Marco

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Little wonder that the population is encouraged into denser/closer living arrangements of flats and apartments where it's not practical to own or find parking for a private vehicle.

With sufficient land available building up is not economically interesting. Which most first world countries have, in theory. If it weren't for our governments selling us to global political interests. New Zealand being one of the absolute champions, your country is being literally given away to foreigners.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 06:36:36 AM by Marco »
 

Offline tautech

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Little wonder that the population is encouraged into denser/closer living arrangements of flats and apartments where it's not practical to own or find parking for a private vehicle.

With sufficient land available building up is not economically interesting. Which most first world countries have, in theory. If it weren't for our governments selling us to global political interests. New Zealand being one of the absolute champions, your country is being literally given away to foreigners.
Tell me about it.  |O

Over the next few days a new MMP govt will be formed here with the minor party having strong views on foreign ownership and immigration. One of their bottom lines is to address this and regain control of our country which will make things very interesting over the next few months/years. Our NZ exchange rate is pretty sensitive to any talk of curbing foreign investment and it goes duck diving as confidence diminishes. Good for primary exporters but not so for anything we need to import.  :scared:
Anyways, we need be careful this doesn't turn into a political debate as it's frowned upon on the forum.
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Offline M. András

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the problem wouldnt exist in the first place if utility companies would take the collected income and do the upgrading of the infrastructure what they charge for. here we pay a big sum for this and they do nothing unless a storm shreds the overhead uninsulated cables to shreds 3phase+neutral on every street approx 5-6 meters in the air, which by design greatly undersized for the load they get nowadays
 

Offline Marco

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Good for primary exporters but not so for anything we need to import.  :scared:

So tax exporters, oh wait that's expropriation of the foreigners owning your exporting industry ... ISDS says hi. That is New Zealand's problem, even people who fight the symptoms in government aren't allowed to mention the causes and what is truly necessary to solve it. International agreements have locked the first world into a death spiral, with some temporary take all winners in a race to the bottom, there can be no escape without taking the blinders off.

Any way, energy is political ... there is no escaping it.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 07:31:48 AM by Marco »
 

Offline zl2wrw

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[SNIP]
I'm fighting a different issue at work. Too many solar installations cause the voltage to increase, at some point the inverters have to switch off to avoid overvoltage. This decreases the voltage for others, who can switch on, and they start bouncing on-off until the situation changes. Some people loose 50-100 EUR a year because of this, sometimes even without knowing about it.
Of course instead of replacing the cables with just thicker cables, they want software solution. Great planning.[SNIP]
If the grid connection at each solar inverter looks like it has an inductive reactive characteristic (inductance of transmission lines, leakage reactance of transformers etc), then each solar inverter can have some influence on voltage by either sinking or sourcing reactive power (sink VAr to reduce the voltage and source VAr to increase the voltage - like adjusting excitation on the synchronous alternators in a power station...). Think of it as a distributed STATCOM.

Replacing all the cables (and distribution transformers etc) would be rather expensive. "Smart grid" with peak demand charges (just like AMD & RCPD charges for large commercial/industrial customers) would help "encourage" customers to spread their loads out throughout the day (and slow charge electric cars during off-peak times instead of fast charging them during on-peak times)


So tax exporters, oh wait that's expropriation of the foreigners owning your exporting industry ... ISDS says hi. That is New Zealand's problem, even people who fight the symptoms in government aren't allowed to mention the causes and what is truly necessary to solve it.[SNIP]
Sovereign nations can renegotiate, withdraw from or denunciate treaties (other treaty parties might not want to trade with them as a result, but ISDS isn't exactly going to send an invasion force...)
 

Offline NANDBlog

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[SNIP]
I'm fighting a different issue at work. Too many solar installations cause the voltage to increase, at some point the inverters have to switch off to avoid overvoltage. This decreases the voltage for others, who can switch on, and they start bouncing on-off until the situation changes. Some people loose 50-100 EUR a year because of this, sometimes even without knowing about it.
Of course instead of replacing the cables with just thicker cables, they want software solution. Great planning.[SNIP]
If the grid connection at each solar inverter looks like it has an inductive reactive characteristic (inductance of transmission lines, leakage reactance of transformers etc), then each solar inverter can have some influence on voltage by either sinking or sourcing reactive power (sink VAr to reduce the voltage and source VAr to increase the voltage - like adjusting excitation on the synchronous alternators in a power station...). Think of it as a distributed STATCOM.

Replacing all the cables (and distribution transformers etc) would be rather expensive. "Smart grid" with peak demand charges (just like AMD & RCPD charges for large commercial/industrial customers) would help "encourage" customers to spread their loads out throughout the day (and slow charge electric cars during off-peak times instead of fast charging them during on-peak times)
Yes, using reactive power is reducing this problem. But you need to control the inverters and synchronize the whole thing with smartness. Its complicated. And it doesnt really solve the issue. Also, they want to encourage auto-consumption. Which is retarded, the best case senario is some 0,2% power reduction, and huge inconvenience.
 

Offline Marco

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IMO the most efficient way would be to charge batteries directly at power plant and swap them at filling station.

Meh, their capacity is still too bloody tiny. Full electric are presently for value signalling (with an ICE backup) and hippies ... maybe in the future they will be forced on poor people, but with current battery tech they will never be truly popular. Develop Lithium-Air and/or Aluminium-Air batteries before making this whole switch over, they will allow vastly different and far more comfortable use cases.

If aluminium-air batteries and their reconditioning (with ionic liquid electrolysis for the Aluminium) could get say 75% round trip energy efficiency we can just forget about rechargeable batteries. Just standardize the batteries and have a robot replace them at the gas station (also make them modular and light enough they can be exchanged by hand if necessary with a little mechanical help or 2 men).
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 06:03:18 AM by Marco »
 

Offline hendorog

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It's very clear. If a car charger is going to draw 10 or 20 kW continuously for several hours overnight, and every house is going to have one of these chargers installed (or more than one charger for multi-car families), then the distribution network absolutely cannot handle that demand. The existing network is sized for much lower average power demands than that, probably 10% of that.

All that is required is for the demand to be a bit smarter. Fast charging overnight is an oxymoron. Overnight charging should be slow by definition. Simple variable pricing which already exists is the way to solve it. Just expose the customers to the variable pricing.

The average draw just needs to replace the average daily consumption, which is probably in the 10kWh - 20kWh range - based on a quick google on consumption/km and a 60km commute.

So based on that you have all night to charge 20kWh - which is 10 hours at 2kW, which is the same as running an electric heater all night. I think the grid will cope with that.
 
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